How damage nerf affected us rhinos.

[Caiahar]

Hello, this is shadowstar.

I would like to bring up the topic on the damage nerf.
The damage nerf in pvp did make things better in some people's eyes, and in others they hate it.
However, I see both. The damage nerf did make things a bit more skill based, which is good. I like it very much in that way.
But it kind of affected the rhino too. Rhinos cannot do any, or very little damage now in pvp.
Now I expect this "WTF SHADOW WTF YOU TALKING you don't know anything you're young rhinos not meant to kill blah blah blah"....
Well I do know that rhinos are not expected to kill, but their skills in CTF are huge. But before nerf, rhinos COULD kill, even when they're not supposed to.

I secretly made a vow before to try and make the rhino a good class for pvp, as some people thought it was stupid. (I do know how gragorak made many different level rhinos, and I respect him for that, as well as his other qualities)

Well I successfully did it at 30/32 and at 40 too. I could kill lots of people, except for fb people, but I could still kill.
Now, when I look in 30 pvp, I see rhinos. Idk if it was me, but I remember when I was 32, there were no other rhinos, except for one who retired.
When I left 32, I saw more 30 rhinos.
At 40 I could kill too, but I left after dmg nerf, because simply I couldn't kill ANYTHING. Mages just killed me when I ran out of mana, I didn't do dmg to them.
Same for bears at 40.
I left to 51, and I found it fun as a 51 rhino, but I found I could only kill:
Dex birds
Int mages
SOMETIMES dex mages.
A good dex Mage against me is endless.
And bears.....I'm afraid to say that rhinos vs bears, it is endless. Rhinos now no longer do any damage, or very little, so a bear can tank the low dmg hits very easily. However, the bear does not have as much armor as armor, so his attacks don't do much against the fully buffed rhino, with many armor, AND two healing skills. So it's endless, and I can't get a hit in because of his dodge, and he can't get good dmg against me. And I also have 26 mana regen, so I don't run out of mana. Here it comes again "-.- shadow rhinos aren't meant to kill u dumb noob they're support #ignored" well before nerf, rhinos COULD kill, and I could do decent dmg. But after, I DONT DO DMG AT ALL.

I don't know about 56+ rhinos, I only know at endgame, rhinos are successful, because there is ALWAYS CTF games at endgame.

So I'm requesting some kind of boost added to the rhino, dmg wise, because frankly, they can't kill as much (or not even kill) anymore.
Reason I made this thread was to get feedback from people, and cook up some suggestions how rhinos could be balanced out to the other classes, because as far as I see, this dmg nerf isn't going anywhere soon. Rhinos are also one of my two favorite classes, so there's another one.
I do indeed know I will get flamed for this, and get the repeating answer "rhinos aren't meant to kill" which I explained up there^

-Shadowstar



All for one, and one for all.

[Extreme]

I just made a Rhino, and Really like this Suggestion GJ Bro

[programmed]

I feel rhino is better now. It does have lower damage, and at level 30 I'm doing 30 damage or less. BUT I also have less damage done to me and so I can tank more than before. With less damage done to me I live long enough to kill anything except mages who just spam heal until my mana is gone. Also you said the rhino in 30 when you were 32, if you are talking about me, retired. I didn't; I rmk'ed to 18 and leveled back to 30.

[Samopwn]

Shadow I know how you feel rhino since DMg nerf made rhino take even more skill to get kills now not talking lvl20 rhinos. So lets say 40 rhino vs a good voodoo Mage they just run,you ofc buff then charge redemption tempest then repeat and heal when needed ,now before nerf you did enough DMg to get them to use Ms then do as much of DMG as possible so you. Can use all their man and you can kill .now
You hardly do enough DMg to make them even use ms just run from you till mana is gone and then kill you.
Now vs 40 plat bears who know what they are doing can kill you really easy with perma stuns. Rhino still is my favorite class . Now at 51/53 I get a little more kills but bowbears kill you in secs sword/axe bears you have a small chance and a great post shadow this is just my opion. I also know rhinos made for support but would help for a little more DMg or tiny bit more crit . Oh and hey nubish !! I agree totally with you dexaldin/shadow

[The Sadness]

Isn't CTF dead?

[CrimsonTider]

Isn't CTF dead?

Nope. Play several games each night.

@Shadow - I wish I could add more to this discussion. Considering I made my rhino after all of the changes, I cannot compare the "befores" and "afters." I will say, as an almost end-game rhino, I don't deal a lot of damage but I dir not create my rhino for that purpose. I view the rhino as a faster version of a bear with the strengths of a pally. My sole purpose is to heal, revive, and get the flag. I am sure there are builds which make rhino's more effective killers, but if I wanna kill, I grab my bird.


Kudo's on taking a stand for the class, though. As a long-time advocate for bears, I applaud your effort and see what your efforts are trying to do. Keep it up.

[Caiahar]

Nope. Play several games each night.

@Shadow - I wish I could add more to this discussion. Considering I made my rhino after all of the changes, I cannot compare the "befores" and "afters." I will say, as an almost end-game rhino, I don't deal a lot of damage but I dir not create my rhino for that purpose. I view the rhino as a faster version of a bear with the strengths of a pally. My sole purpose is to heal, revive, and get the flag. I am sure there are builds which make rhino's more effective killers, but if I wanna kill, I grab my bird.


Kudo's on taking a stand for the class, though. As a long-time advocate for bears, I applaud your effort and see what your efforts are trying to do. Keep it up.

Thanks.

If there were actually many more CTF games below endgame, I actually won't mind, as the rhino is very useful and fun is CTF.
And since a CTF game is probably the best thing I've ever played in PL, doing it with a rhino makes me have more fun.
However, the only pvp level I can actually see lots of CTF games everyday is endgame.
And I do agree with you on the faster version of bear. Class with the strength of a bear, and the heals and revs of a pally, and the dash is unique.

Endgame actually wants me to get a rhino to 75, but I can't really do it, because I don't have plat to do mega maze, and if I try to lvl with thrashers in the higher dungeons (mt. Fang, Nuri, Humania, BSM.) the mobs are hard.

I do hope StG help the rhino a bit, as they are my favorite class.

@sadness: At endgame, it's never dead. However, in lower lvls, they are quite scarce.

@samopwn: It's also the reason I left 40.

@scary: At those levels, there is lower armor, so your hits can actually do dmg to them. And the rhino I knew that retired 30/32, was someone else. I really saw no other rhino except for him.

[CrimsonTider]

IMO, CTF has always been dead at levels lower than endgame. The main reason for this is because, unless endgamers are on a twink, CTF maps are treated as 1v1 maps because there is no reset after 10 kills. This is a reason why when "twinks" come to endgame, they begin to rage when they are killed upon entering.

The main flaw I see with rhino's below lvl 50 is their lack of mana regen (or the lack thereof in twink sets.) Yes, rhino's have "Divine Aura" which gives a boost in mana regen, but let's be realistic, it doesn't last very long and needs to be maxed to even have a true effect. Not completely sure what the "answer" is, but I know there should be more diversity with these new classes as they only seem useful at certain levels. (This is based on the numerous threads I have read, not personal experience.)

[Caiahar]

IMO, CTF has always been dead at levels lower than endgame. The main reason for this is because, unless endgamers are on a twink, CTF maps are treated as 1v1 maps because there is no reset after 10 kills. This is a reason why when "twinks" come to endgame, they begin to rage when they are killed upon entering.

The main flaw I see with rhino's below lvl 50 is their lack of mana regen (or the lack thereof in twink sets.) Yes, rhino's have "Divine Aura" which gives a boost in mana regen, but let's be realistic, it doesn't last very long and needs to be maxed to even have a true effect. Not completely sure what the "answer" is, but I know there should be more diversity with these new classes as they only seem useful at certain levels. (This is based on the numerous threads I have read, not personal experience.)

Yes, 50-, mana is a biggie, they rhino needs to use many skills (Buffs, charge, redemption, heal, tempest, might, has to keep on using them repeatedly) and they won't have much mana regen, even if they are int/str, they still use str gear.
The CTF part is true. I've seen people only use it for 1vs1, and so they can keep booting, as normal maps go only to 10 kills, and after each game, booting doesn't work.

I hope rhinos do get a boost, dmg or in other stats, because in the higher levels (50+) the gear has lots of armor, so the rhinos low hits won't do much dmg, and the dmg nerf decreased it even lower.
So
Bear using royal sewer gear with high armor against rhino with even higher armor. Rhino has low dmg, so it can't pierce the armor, and the dmg nerf made it so rhino can't even do dmg or little dmg. Now the rhino has 3 armor buffs (brute force gives 5 armor, guardian and stone skin give high armor) so the bears heavy hitting attacks, won't be heavy on the armor. So it becomes endless.

[Samopwn]

Yes, 50-, mana is a biggie, they rhino needs to use many skills (Buffs, charge, redemption, heal, tempest, might, has to keep on using them repeatedly) and they won't have much mana regen, even if they are int/str, they still use str gear.
The CTF part is true. I've seen people only use it for 1vs1, and so they can keep booting, as normal maps go only to 10 kills, and after each game, booting doesn't work.

I hope rhinos do get a boost, dmg or in other stats, because in the higher levels (50+) the gear has lots of armor, so the rhinos low hits won't do much dmg, and the dmg nerf decreased it even lower.
So
Bear using royal sewer gear with high armor against rhino with even higher armor. Rhino has low dmg, so it can't pierce the armor, and the dmg nerf made it so rhino can't even do dmg or little dmg. Now the rhino has 3 armor buffs (brute force gives 5 armor, guardian and stone skin give high armor) so the bears heavy hitting attacks, won't be heavy on the armor. So it becomes endless.

True story that!!!!!

[Twinklaser]

I've never done 45+ Rhinos so Ill take your word for it. Im thinking that summon need to be boosted to around -30 dodge -30 armor AOE debuff with a range of 10m. This way rhinos can actually kill while being able to play the role of support tank. But besides CTF/FFA scenarios, rhinos need to be able to win 1v1 fights with all classes. A damage boost would be OP considering Vital Force adds the damage to your teammates too so the only option left is to increase the crit. 15-20 is a good number but we woulld then need to reduce the H/S of restore. Maybe drop 40 H/S down to 20-25 ish. Also, Rhino Mights range and stun chance need to be increased since having only charge to get close to someone is extremely annoying especially when you are using a melee weapon. Holy Tempest could use a few extra m range boost since rhinos are the only class thats hard to kte with.

[Caiahar]

I've never done 45+ Rhinos so Ill take your word for it. Im thinking that summon need to be boosted to around -30 dodge -30 armor AOE debuff with a range of 10m. This way rhinos can actually kill while being able to play the role of support tank. But besides CTF/FFA scenarios, rhinos need to be able to win 1v1 fights with all classes. A damage boost would be OP considering Vital Force adds the damage to your teammates too so the only option left is to increase the crit. 15-20 is a good number but we woulld then need to reduce the H/S of restore. Maybe drop 40 H/S down to 20-25 ish. Also, Rhino Mights range and stun chance need to be increased since having only charge to get close to someone is extremely annoying especially when you are using a melee weapon. Holy Tempest could use a few extra m range boost since rhinos are the only class thats hard to kte with.

Those suggestions are very good.
Summon is...a fail debuff. -12 dodge at max. That is basically a waste of 6 skill points. And rhino does need good ranged skills and AoE.
At the moment, only rhino might and tempest are the ones, but rhino might is 5m range at 5, and 70% chance to stun. That's just 1m range than redemption.
I find it a bit difficult to hit redemption and rhino might after charge, because they have low range, and since charge pushes back a bit, it's slightly far away for your skills.

Rhinos need a ranged 12m/10m skill. 5m and 7m isn't really good.
Birds: All arrows, and thorns too.
Mages: Drain, frost, fire.
Bears: Beckon, Hs and stomp is 8m
Foxes: Needles, and the Hypnotize (I am not sure how much range they have)

Also, every single class has a debuff They can rely on

Mages: Lightning has a debuff, and it is also one of the mages good attacks (Like a DPS skill) weakness, nightmare (these 2 are used in higher levels)
Birds: Blind, Break, Shatter, both thorns.
Bears: SMS, cripple, Hs, Cb
Foxes: Howl, needles, break armor skill (not sure the name)

The rhino tempest already has low range to begin with, 7m at 6, only 45% to reduce hit.
The summon is worthless, -12 dodge and -18 h/p pers, which isn't really reliable.
Might is only used for the stun, but the -h/p is worthless.
I'll try and see if I can find how to get these 3 skills reliable for beating other classes, but not OP.


All for one, and one for all.

[Samopwn]

Those suggestions are very good.
Summon is...a fail debuff. -12 dodge at max. That is basically a waste of 6 skill points. And rhino does need good ranged skills and AoE.
At the moment, only rhino might and tempest are the ones, but rhino might is 5m range at 5, and 70% chance to stun. That's just 1m range than redemption.
I find it a bit difficult to hit redemption and rhino might after charge, because they have low range, and since charge pushes back a bit, it's slightly far away for your skills.

Rhinos need a ranged 12m/10m skill. 5m and 7m isn't really good.
Birds: All arrows, and thorns too.
Mages: Drain, frost, fire.
Bears: Beckon, Hs and stomp is 8m
Foxes: Needles, and the Hypnotize (I am not sure how much range they have)

Also, every single class has a debuff They can rely on

Mages: Lightning has a debuff, and it is also one of the mages good attacks (Like a DPS skill) weakness, nightmare (these 2 are used in higher levels)
Birds: Blind, Break, Shatter, both thorns.
Bears: SMS, cripple, Hs, Cb
Foxes: Howl, needles, break armor skill (not sure the name)

The rhino tempest already has low range to begin with, 7m at 6, only 45% to reduce hit.
The summon is worthless, -12 dodge and -18 h/p pers, which isn't really reliable.
Might is only used for the stun, but the -h/p is worthless.

Divine aura is not all that great either

And shadow I see all the work you putting in this thanks again . Tempest
10m And might 7m would be nice but i think that would be to powerful but i dont know really. Maybe if force buffs didn't stack and vital gave 10-15 crit would help, make tempest debuff 100% at 6 and make summon -20 dodge Or just give rhino I small bit more DMg either with buff or with skills. Or change Devine aura and summon for something else or make them better . The above has been some ideas that I could see happen
And some of my thoughts not saying to add all this.
Oh and may the force be with you!!

[Roberto077]

Summon: Summons 3 archers with shadow sets that all shoot a 12m shadow shotgun shot then fade away. All debuffs are removed and dodge and armor are increased.

This would be cool.

[Samopwn]

Summon: Summons 3 archers with shadow sets that all shoot a 12m shadow shotgun shot then fade away. All debuffs are removed and dodge and armor are increased.

This would be cool.

Doesn't this sound op tho it is a great idea I think it's cool but I doubt they will do it divine aura then should call gods to demolish anyone within 12m of you with 3min cool down best skill ever

[Caiahar]

Summon: Summons 3 archers with shadow sets that all shoot a 12m shadow shotgun shot then fade away. All debuffs are removed and dodge and armor are increased.

This would be cool.

The rhino has lower health compared to the bear, but the higher armor makes up for it.

Guardian gives good amount of armor, a bit dodge, and also summons three pigeon birds that you can use as slaves or pets, and they slave to get you out of root, stun, and freeze.
@samo: Yeah, I guess tempest would be kind of OP if it was 10m. But I don't see much of a harm if rhino might was boosted to higher change.
As of now, this usually happens:
I buff, I charge as usual, but if the oppenent uses repulse/fire, you get knocked away, which isn't a problem.
Charge, the might, then redemption. Sounds ez right?
Not as easy.
Charge has a tiny pushback, which I see useless, and might even affect the rhino. So when you get pushed back after you charge, charges little pushback actually pushes them back, even if you got knocked back. So now you're not in range to do Might.
Most of the time, I have to be really close for might to work.
So charge, then you might. 70% opponents stunned, you redemption. But redemption doesn't work, because you wasted the second using might instead of redemption.
So if might was increased to 8m/possibly 10m, you could do this:

Charge in, you get pushed. Oh no! You're getting kited!
Not a biggie, use might when they push you, so when you get pushed back to 8/10m, they get stunned, and then you can move in for the kill.
A mage could counter my saving his heal until he gets stunned, and a bird could Avian or root so rhino doesn't get to em.

Summon does need a boost. The -dodge should probably be removed, and replaced with something better (not -dmg, that wouldn't work) a good armor debuff or something. the -h/p is useless, when I use it against someone, it literally says 0 dmg over opponents head.
So, increase the -dodge , or remove and replace with something else. Or, increase the -dodge person to a good number, and replace the -h/p with a good armor debuff.

I'll post when I find a good suggestion that would work against beating bears too. The armor debuff and increasing dodge debuff might be it.

[Samopwn]

Um shadow I think if they made tempest 8m and had 100 debuff chance would be a little better
Cause 100 chance. Any thoughts on this in some ways seems good but in some other ways might be op

And is it a bad idea to remove force buffs cancel effect

[Caiahar]

Um shadow I think if they made tempest 8m and had 100 debuff chance would be a little better
Cause 100 chance. Any thoughts on this in some ways seems good but in some other ways might be op

And is it a bad idea to remove force buffs cancel effect

Refer to gragorak a guide on how to stack force buffs in the Rhino class section.

100% debuff is a bit OP.
As of now, lvl 6 has 45%, but that's too dam low. Should be higher.

[Roberto077]

Doesn't this sound op tho it is a great idea I think it's cool but I doubt they will do it divine aura then should call gods to demolish anyone within 12m of you with 3min cool down best skill ever

I was more going towards awesomeness over balance xD

[Caiahar]

Doesn't this sound op tho it is a great idea I think it's cool but I doubt they will do it divine aura then should call gods to demolish anyone within 12m of you with 3min cool down best skill ever

I was more going towards awesomeness over balance xD

Hm..if u want a new look...
How about changing those guardian birds to look like sentinel birds? no change in buff, but just the look