Four Skills. (4)

[falmear]

No one has limited you to 2 attack skills.

I just think "having" to use more than 4 is pathetic and unfair.

If you play a rogue you know your heal is bad, 75% of the time they glitch, you don't get them in time, someone steals, or are too far from you.

Armor reduction, where?
We have 3 attack skills because we don't have any debuff or stuns skills.

1) By design mages are limited to 2 attack skills. You have to you shield otherwise you're dead by being potentially one hit or combo'd by a rogue. And we also need heal to recover our own health and give mana to the group. If you're strictly talking 1v1 against a rogue then I don't use heal because the fight doesn't last that long and lifegiver is useless.
2) Whatever you don't like about packs, it heals the most on a percentage basis and not including healing over time. 3 packs = 90% plus heal over time. Sorry I can't be sad for you when my heal barely gives me 50%.
3) Last upgrade on Aimed shot called Shatter Armor does 15% armor reduction for 5 seconds. I don't know how you can say you don't have any armor reduction or no debuffs when its clearly stated right on your skills screen. Also if you want to get technical, shadow pierce has a 15% chance to reduce 10% armor.
4) Rogues can stun, they can use charged attack on a bow or use a pet that stuns/panics.

Whether its unfair or pathetic, I'll let you be the judge of that.

[Solid]

1) By design mages are limited to 2 attack skills. You have to you shield otherwise you're dead by being potentially one hit or combo'd by a rogue. And we also need heal to recover our own health and give mana to the group. If you're strictly talking 1v1 against a rogue then I don't use heal because the fight doesn't last that long and lifegiver is useless.
2) Whatever you don't like about packs, it heals the most on a percentage basis and not including healing over time. 3 packs = 90% plus heal over time. Sorry I can't be sad for you when my heal barely gives me 50%.
3) Last upgrade on Aimed shot called Shatter Armor does 15% armor reduction for 5 seconds. I don't know how you can say you don't have any armor reduction or no debuffs when its clearly stated right on your skills screen. Also if you want to get technical, shadow pierce has a 15% chance to reduce 10% armor.
4) Rogues can stun, they can use charged attack on a bow or use a pet that stuns/panics.

Whether its unfair or pathetic, I'll let you be the judge of that.

The best 1v1 mages use 3 attack skills. By design mages are limited to 2? This is purely your opinion. For pve I use 4 attack skills.

High heal %? It would be awesome if I was guaranteed to get all 3 packs and receive the full %. In clashes I'll be lucky if I get 1 of those packs or if a full 3 actually come.

15% armor reduction is epic? Define epic... Also nobody uses armor reduction on piercer...

We don't have STUN SKILLS, every class can charge attack or use a stun pet. Mages have fireball, tanks have skyward smash, and rogues have no stun skills.

Next.

[falmear]

The best 1v1 mages use 3 attack skills. By design mages are limited to 2? This is purely your opinion. For pve I use 4 attack skills.

High heal %? It would be awesome if I was guaranteed to get all 3 packs and receive the full %. In clashes I'll be lucky if I get 1 of those packs or if a full 3 actually come.

15% armor reduction is epic? Define epic... Also nobody uses armor reduction on piercer...

We don't have STUN SKILLS, every class can charge attack or use a stun pet. Mages have fireball, tanks have skyward smash, and rogues have no stun skills.

Next.

In a 5v5 match you need 2 defensive skills. In a 1v1 match between mages and warriors you need a 2 defensive skills. Only in a 1v1 match against a rogue can you run only one defensive skill. Prove me wrong. As for PvE are you kidding me? We are talking PvP and you bring up PvE? In PvP mages by design are limited to 2 attack skills because they have to spec 2 defensive skills. Unless they don't use life giver then you have rogues crying about mana. Which is okay with me since I got plenty of it and if there is a warrior or two, their healing is enough for me.

My arcane staff doesn't stun on charged attack. So not every class or weapon does. I wish it did. Seems like you need to spend a little more time reading your own skills page and researching what weapons do then generalizing.

[Solid]

In a 5v5 match you need 2 defensive skills. In a 1v1 match between mages and warriors you need a 2 defensive skills. Only in a 1v1 match against a rogue can you run only one defensive skill. Prove me wrong. As for PvE are you kidding me? We are talking PvP and you bring up PvE? In PvP mages by design are limited to 2 attack skills because they have to spec 2 defensive skills. Unless they don't use life giver then you have rogues crying about mana. Which is okay with me since I got plenty of it and if there is a warrior or two, their healing is enough for me.

My arcane staff doesn't stun on charged attack. So not every class or weapon does. I wish it did. Seems like you need to spend a little more time reading your own skills page and researching what weapons do then generalizing.

Again, 2 defensive skills is your opinion and is based on playstyle.

The arcane staff not stunning on charged is obviously a trade off, as it has the capability to do 15% DMG to a rogue when its auto attack is charged. But, MOST WEAPONS STUN ON CHARGED AUTO.
spend more time reading skills page, are you referring me not knowing there was an armor reduction skill? I was confused because you said an EPIC armor reduction skill. Maybe your excessive overaggerations are confusing people.

[falmear]

The arcane staff not stunning on charged is obviously a trade off, as it has the capability to do 15% DMG to a rogue when its auto attack is charged. But, MOST WEAPONS STUN ON CHARGED AUTO.

Maybe you can enlighten me on what this 15% DMG to a rogue is on a charged auto attack. I have never heard of this before. Nor have I seen it in my testing.

[Solid]

Maybe you can enlighten me on what this 15% DMG to a rogue is on a charged auto attack. I have never heard of this before. Nor have I seen it in my testing.

Pretty sure it was hali, when he charged his auto attack (hold down the staff icon and release at opponent) it took me to 85%.

[falmear]

Pretty sure it was hali, when he charged his auto attack (hold down the staff icon and release at opponent) it took me to 85%.

Non-charged attack does more damage. Charging arcane staff is useless.

[Solid]

Non-charged attack does more damage. Charging arcane staff is useless.

Proc.

[Bless]

Some poker players master the art of sliding cards up their sleeve so they can choose the best hand out of more than 5 cards. Yes, it is probably an amazing skill that takes years of practice to perfect. But I don't care how you slice it, it is still cheating.

As for the issue of focussing on the huge gap between different geared players, what do you suggest they do? You make it sound like some players have lousy gear by default. Those players should work towards better gear. Every expansion I always spend the first couple of months in PvE and merching in order to improve my gear. Then I enter PvP later on when I am fully geared. And no, I do not have the best gear. I have mythics, but most of them are level 30/31 including my weapon, and it's tough to compete against players who have level 36 mythic or arcane weapons. But I do just fine. There is nothing with this issue to focus on. It is working as intended. MMOs are suppose to give an advantage to those with better gear. If they advantage was not a noticeable one, nobody would spend the time required to get the best and rarest gear.

Yes mages are weaker in a 1v1, but they arent built for single target so they shouldnt be doing 1v1 in the first place, like i said if they want to do 1v1s in a ctf based game then face the concequences. Mages are fine in 5v5s.

[Bless]

None of us will admit our classes are op, thus its a pointless argument.

[Madnex]

None of us will admit our classes are op, thus its a pointless argument.

That cracked me up lol. So wait, who said sorcs are OP in PvP?

I admit we are PvE monsters, yet I thought this was PvP based conversation.

I agree that these debates are most likely of no real importance and have no real chances of changing the game unless more people join them or at least support the main debaters. Also, I do consider pet spamming unfair since not everyone has access to pets that can panic or stun. That's why it's going to be fixed.

I'll gladly come back to this topic once our skills are rebalanced to make a feasible PvP build that can counter any class 1v1 possible. Saying that sorcs can't and shouldn't PvP is plain unfair; rogues can easily balance their lack of AoE skills with potions while keeping their extreme damage/crit rates, making it the best or second best all around class. Somehow that doesn't sit well, does it.

[Bless]

None of us will admit our classes are op, thus its a pointless argument.

That cracked me up lol. So wait, who said sorcs are OP in PvP?

I admit we are PvE monsters, yet I thought this was PvP based conversation.

I agree that these debates are most likely of no real importance and have no real chances of changing the game unless more people join them or at least support the main debaters. Also, I do consider pet spamming unfair since not everyone has access to pets that can panic or stun. That's why it's going to be fixed.

I'll gladly come back to this topic once our skills are rebalanced to make a feasible PvP build that can counter any class 1v1 possible. Saying that sorcs can't and shouldn't PvP is plain unfair; rogues can easily balance their lack of AoE skills with potions while keeping their extreme damage/crit rates, making it the best or second best all around class. Somehow that doesn't sit well, does it.

You just proved my point...did I say anything about specific classes? People will obv support their class because they dont want to get nerfed.

[Ravager]

Is switching loadouts going to be cheating too? It involves going to the menu and pressing a button. I used to do this while jug cools down.

[Instanthumor]

Now I understand what is going on. We have a clear balance problem in which mages are weaker than other classes, so instead of making a case to STS that we are weaker, some of you mages are using keystroke programs to switch skills mid-fight in order to exploit the system and even things out. While I applaud your effort, you all do a disservice to everyone who plays the game as it was intended -- with 4 skills loaded during a single fight.

Instead of clearly seeing that mages are at a disadvantage, STS looks at things and sees some mages winning these fights, so they think everything is fine. Then mages like myself who do not play on a PC and cannot switch skills mid-fight are at a huge disadvantage. If I try to switch skills mid-fight, I will be dead by the time I go back to the main screen.

Like I said in the other thread talking about pets, any change to spec or pet should be followed by a 10-15 seconds delay before you can use any of the newly added items, whether they be a newly summoned pet or a new skill added.

The game was intended to be played with 4 skills and one pet. If more skills were intended, then we would have more than 4 skill buttons and if more than one pet was intended, we would have more than one pet button. Anything you do to bypass these limitations is a way of cheating. You are doing the equivalent of putting cards up your sleeve during a game of poker.

Just wanna emphasize that you do not need pc to switch skills. I am not a pc player myself, yet I use (and switch) five skills. In fact, it is way easier to switch skills on Ipad or Tablet (without using these 'keystoke programs'), only takes 1-2 seconds.

[Madnex]

You just proved my point...did I say anything about specific classes? People will obv support their class because they dont want to get nerfed.

I play all three classes, with sorc as main. I've delved into each class's skills and combo possibilities long ago before this thread came up.

I do not wish for the other two classes to be nerfed necessarily but it's obvious that a little tweaking on sorcs is a little more than needed at this point. Objectively, it's the correct decision. The isn't your daily war newb who wants to squash blue smurfs without resistance even easier (yes, we all remember that hilarious incident), this is a large portion of top geared, experienced sorcs that's currently getting the cold shoulder on PvP.

Pay attention now; I didn't say boost or enhance, I said tweak. I'll happily trade off some of sorc's one too many PvE stuns/roots or DoT's for a better PvP survivability rate. Sorc skills are full of holes, ice and FB DoT's mean literally nothing in PvP; time shift is plain inefficient since there's no root and as both wars and rogs can skysmash/pierce out of it, without even wasting a skill.

As a rogue, I'd sacrifice some of the countless extra damage or extra crit per shot unlocks for single targe to AoE changing unlocks. Problem is, wars and rogues possess some sufficient AoE features already and since PvE-PvP AoE gap is covered by team ups and potion spamming, you can't realize the difference. The role of sorc as support is tending to be rendered completely useless and as a PvE class it's plainly preferrable, not necessary. I don't even bother swapping to lifegiver anymore on Elite runs anymore; potions heals 30% HP 3 times in 4 seconds.

I don't know where exactly our HP and armor, as wars, went totally through the roof but the latest arcanes certainly had something to do about it. To be fair, the 2 second invulnerability needs to be traded for stats like dodge or crit. The initial cast heal could be slightly improved, in that case. This will effectively deal with the invincibility mode wars can go into (which has become really lethal after our damage output has been raised twice past few months). I've been winning with ease even over arcane geared sorcs by pure brute force and a bit of correct skill timing. Rogues are a little harder but the trick is not to let them wear you out of your mana.


Tbh, rogues and wars can PvP each other just fine. Overpowered critical hits, damage buffs and armor debuffs are countered with overpowered armor, HP and stuns. It just appears like sorcs weren't cut out to be enabled in this PvP fun, which is unacceptable since it's limiting us to PvE and leading to cheap tricks like undergeared players hunting or kill farming.

[Haligali]

I think that lock the swapping of skill which on cooldown is a good idea.

[Sky_is_epicgearz]

my opinion if you want to hear it.

well some of you warriors are sayin that yes this is acceptable because there are rogues with 4 skills that can beat you 1 on 1, not mentioning names but you have an idea who these persons are. well those rogues are full mythic + sameal i believe. Not everyone has these.

i realise that AL is a growing game and there are more than enough skill point so you now have multiple skils. well i think its ok to 'have' more than 4 skills. *my opinion* i think skiils are meant to be switched between pve and pvp.

what this thread is about is not whether 5+ skills are acceptable its about how you use them. i think it has something to do with chivalry . what i mean by this out of fairness of a 1v1 a rogue using 4 skills would want you as a warrior to play with 4 also and same applys for mage vs rogue. i use 6 skills on my mage and i swap between skills for pvp and pve. in pvp i sacrifice heal for shield + 3 offensive skills.

if you skip to 13:00 this is how pvp 1v1 should be played using 5 skills:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X2IObnmP4U
and thats how i play 1v1 also

i mean sometimes i just watch players stats in 4v4 clashes and the warriors are using 5 skills and 5 seconds after the whole team are dead the warrior is still hacking away lol. its a little unfair but the will to live is strong in anything

But anyways nothing anyone can do unless devs do something. But in the 1v1 situation I would say that in the it's only fair that you use the same amount of skills as your opponent

[Bless]

I think that lock the swapping of skill which on cooldown is a good idea.

thats what we want!

[Bless]

my opinion if you want to hear it.

well some of you warriors are sayin that yes this is acceptable because there are rogues with 4 skills that can beat you 1 on 1, not mentioning names but you have an idea who these persons are. well those rogues are full mythic + sameal i believe. Not everyone has these.

i realise that AL is a growing game and there are more than enough skill point so you now have multiple skils. well i think its ok to 'have' more than 4 skills. *my opinion* i think skiils are meant to be switched between pve and pvp.

what this thread is about is not whether 5+ skills are acceptable its about how you use them. i think it has something to do with chivalry . what i mean by this out of fairness of a 1v1 a rogue using 4 skills would want you as a warrior to play with 4 also and same applys for mage vs rogue. i use 6 skills on my mage and i swap between skills for pvp and pve. in pvp i sacrifice heal for shield + 3 offensive skills.

if you skip to 13:00 this is how pvp 1v1 should be played using 5 skills:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X2IObnmP4U
and thats how i play 1v1 also

i mean sometimes i just watch players stats in 4v4 clashes and the warriors are using 5 skills and 5 seconds after the whole team are dead the warrior is still hacking away lol. its a little unfair but the will to live is strong in anything

But anyways nothing anyone can do unless devs do something. But in the 1v1 situation I would say that in the it's only fair that you use the same amount of skills as your opponent

I like how you put things. Its op to use 4+ skills and everyone who is reading this knows it and dont reply saying its not op because it is. Rofl i can down a mage in under 10 seconds with 6 skills and a warrior in under 20...why would you think its ok to do the same.

[Madnex]

I like how you put things. Its op to use 4+ skills and everyone who is reading this knows it and dont reply saying its not op because it is. Rofl i can down a mage in under 10 seconds with 6 skills and a warrior in under 20...why would you think its ok to do the same.

This made my day lol. "Don't reply because we all know my opinion is the correct one". Nice.

If you could use 5th and 6th we wouldn't be having this conversation. Your whole argument was based on how unfair it is for sorcs to use it since it's not as effective for rogues. Contradiction level cap.