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  Click here to go to the first Dev post in this thread.   Thread: Are we hitting a cap on percent based buffs?

  1. #21
    Senior Member GoodSyntax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
    If you'd like, I can do a test in Elite Tindirin for you and give you the data. I'll be following the same procedure you explained to Tendirin so there's minimum variance, is that cool?
    I'd really appreciate it if you could. That would allow me to compare across different builds. I'll also run a sample set in elite Oltgar.

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    Senior Member Candylicks's Avatar
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    Very curious to see what the numbers look like in other zones. Kali I've had this same thought before it's nice to see data regarding this.

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    Senior Member GoodSyntax's Avatar
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    More evidence....this time done in Elite Oltgar Keep using 25% Damage Kit. I expanded my sample size to 60 attacks for normal auto, charged auto and uncharged Aimed both with and without Loki, and with and without elixir.

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    Note that the Normal (non-elixired) uncharged Aimed Shot performed essentially as expected, with about +13.5% DMG when using Loki.

    Note that across the board, the differential with and without Loki while on DMG elixir (and his +15% DMG) flatlined. This provides rock-solid proof that something is afoot here. Based on these statistics, there is no benefit to using Loki when combined with a +25% DMG elixir, since the values are effectively the same (+/- 3% variance in almost every case).

    Even more alarming is that I am not seeing a +25% DMG when comparing between normal and with damage elixir. I am yielding about a 7% gain with Loki when I was using a +25% DMG elixir, so I expected to see a +25% increase in average damage with my pet.

    Without Loki (no pet), I am seeing an average of about 18-20%, which is more in-line with expectations.

    Comparing normal, no pet damage versus elixired damage with Loki results in a very scary statistic. A straight sum of +DMG percent should yield +40%. Even with the most conservative possible multiplier of added Damage (0.25 * 1.15 = .2875, or +28.75% added damage), I am barely able to reach half of the expected value. Comparing normal, no pet damage versus +25% DMG elixir and Loki, I am only able to attain about +17.5% DMG. Not at all what I expected to see.

    Ordinarily, I would say this is bugged, because I still feel that there is something wrong in Nordr elites right now, but the results are consistent with what I experienced at Elite Brackenridge.

    Sam, any idea why I'm seeing what I'm seeing?

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    Guardian of Alterra FluffNStuff's Avatar
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    Do you have the 5/5 in damage for that 5% bonus damage? Also, do you have any archon or troll style rings that have +x damage or +x bonus damage?

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    Kali, excellent data gathering on this. I would love to see an explanation from the devs on this. It basically shows that you are hitting a ceiling cap at roughly close to 30% from what I'm looking at now. So if you have a Damage Elixir at 25% you are better off with a Pet that has no Damage % increase, but rather one that boosts your other stats since your data is showing that with both it is not accounting for one of them and I'm going to say the pet's Damage % is not being accounted for. I'm not sure which takes precedent, an Elixir or a Pet Happiness bonus. But whichever one it is, the other is deemed useless and not feasible to use.

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    Senior Member GoodSyntax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffNStuff View Post
    Do you have the 5/5 in damage for that 5% bonus damage? Also, do you have any archon or troll style rings that have +x damage or +x bonus damage?
    I only have 5/5 DMG, no archon

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodSyntax View Post
    I only have 5/5 DMG, no archon

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
    Is the 5% Passive damage accounted for separately from the other bonuses?

    For example, if I have 5% passive and I have a Singe, would I be in reality hitting 20% or 15% only since the passive is part of the "player".

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    So what I'm reading through this is that, with damage kits going for 10k now, you can achieve better damage output with non mythic and non arcane pets simply because the extra damage % is rendered useless. Interesting.

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    Senior Member GoodSyntax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keikali View Post
    Is the 5% Passive damage accounted for separately from the other bonuses?

    For example, if I have 5% passive and I have a Singe, would I be in reality hitting 20% or 15% only since the passive is part of the "player".
    Based on what I see from my DMG elixir (+25%) combined with my +5% DMG passive, I can only assume that it is a total of 30% combined, regardless of where the bonus actually comes from.

    So, 15% from Loki, +5% from DMG passive and +2.5% from archon means that at best you can only get +7.5% from any DMG elixir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keikali View Post
    Is the 5% Passive damage accounted for separately from the other bonuses?

    For example, if I have 5% passive and I have a Singe, would I be in reality hitting 20% or 15% only since the passive is part of the "player".
    I think passives take priority so let's say your damage is 600, the damage passive makes that 630. Pet happiness bonus is calculated with that number meaning that your damage should be improved by 15% of 630 which is 94. Correct me if I'm wrong but that'd make final damage 724.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodSyntax View Post
    I only have 5/5 DMG, no archon

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
    UGH ....

    Reran your numbers by first removing that 5% damage from the no pet/no elixir to get a 'pure' damage (dividing by 1.05). Then did a 15% / 25% increase on those numbers ... and got what you are seeing!!! !!!. What this is telling me is not that there is a cap, but there is NO STACKING! Essentially it is taking the HIGHEST damage value and ONLY using that. Hopefully this is a bug!

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    OMG, I just did some of my own small tests and it seems that it is not stacking! Running lix only boosts by a little bit, but the extra % it's supposed to!
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    You are both correct. The way that the current multiplier system works depends on the statistic being multiplied. In the case of damage specifically, we apply the following rules:

    - Is there one or more debuff? If so, use the lowest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 0.5 damage multiplier debuff and a 0.25 damage multiplier debuff, this would result in a multiplier of 0.25).
    - Otherwise, is there one or more buff? If so, use the highest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 1.05 damage multiplier buff and a 1.25 damage multiplier buff, this would result in a multiplier of 1.25).

    Because of this, yes. If you have a passive skill with a 1.05 multiplier (5/5 skill), and you also have a pet out that gives you a 1.15 multiplier, your total damage multiplier will be 1.15.

    There are a few things that override this - bonus damage, double damage weekends and such interact with the statistic system differently from the normal multipliers, so they don't use this logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by null_void View Post
    You are both correct. The way that the current multiplier system works depends on the statistic being multiplied. In the case of damage specifically, we apply the following rules:

    - Is there one or more debuff? If so, use the lowest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 0.5 damage multiplier debuff and a 0.25 damage multiplier debuff, this would result in a multiplier of 0.25).
    - Otherwise, is there one or more buff? If so, use the highest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 1.05 damage multiplier buff and a 1.25 damage multiplier buff, this would result in a multiplier of 1.25).

    Because of this, yes. If you have a passive skill with a 1.05 multiplier (5/5 skill), and you also have a pet out that gives you a 1.15 multiplier, your total damage multiplier will be 1.15.

    There are a few things that override this - bonus damage, double damage weekends and such interact with the statistic system differently from the normal multipliers, so they don't use this logic.
    Simply put for the non-number users; the SINGLE highest modifier will be used when determining Damage % Bonus. In other words, 25% > 15% Pet > 5% Passive. And in this case the Elixir will override all. Correct me if I'm wrong.

  18.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #35
    Spacetime Studios Dev null_void's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keikali View Post
    Simply put for the non-number users; the SINGLE highest modifier will be used when determining Damage % Bonus. In other words, 25% > 15% Pet > 5% Passive. And in this case the Elixir will override all. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    You are correct.

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    Senior Member GoodSyntax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by null_void View Post
    You are both correct. The way that the current multiplier system works depends on the statistic being multiplied. In the case of damage specifically, we apply the following rules:

    - Is there one or more debuff? If so, use the lowest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 0.5 damage multiplier debuff and a 0.25 damage multiplier debuff, this would result in a multiplier of 0.25).
    - Otherwise, is there one or more buff? If so, use the highest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 1.05 damage multiplier buff and a 1.25 damage multiplier buff, this would result in a multiplier of 1.25).

    Because of this, yes. If you have a passive skill with a 1.05 multiplier (5/5 skill), and you also have a pet out that gives you a 1.15 multiplier, your total damage multiplier will be 1.15.

    There are a few things that override this - bonus damage, double damage weekends and such interact with the statistic system differently from the normal multipliers, so they don't use this logic.
    Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of DMG passives and Pet %DMG when using elixirs?

    Also, does this mean that the DMG passive is useless when coupled with pets like Loki, Talon or any other %DMG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by null_void View Post
    You are correct.
    Thanks. I do have a question though. How does this work in terms of CRIT %. Is there eventually a "ceiling" that we can hit?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodSyntax View Post
    Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of DMG passives and Pet %DMG when using elixirs?

    Also, does this mean that the DMG passive is useless when coupled with pets like Loki, Talon or any other %DMG?

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
    Exactly. Nowadays most people use Pets with DMG % to boost their overall Damage along with putting 5/5 into Damage Passive, but not knowing that only the highest modifier will be accounted for.

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    Does this also apply to veil's damage buff? Seems like passive damage is rather pointless. If veil or pet damage replaces the passive damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falmear View Post
    Does this also apply to veil's damage buff? Seems like passive damage is rather pointless. If veil or pet damage replaces the passive damage.
    According to how they have it coded, the SINGLE most Potent Buff or Debuff is used as a multiplier. So I believe SV also applies in this case since SV is a buff. So I'm guessing when you walk into the smoke it will be either used or override and when you walk out of it, it will use your previous highest modifier.

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    Hmmm.. I am switching to crit passive instead of damage passive after reading all of this. )
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