Help me become a better party player

[Huikreu]

So, I'm a rogue and just hit level 40 (PvE only) - and I played in a party with a great tank for the very first time yesterday. It was amazing - he pulled mobs, kept aggro, etc...basically made the whole thing look easy. So first, a shout out to the great tanks out there - I wish there were more of you. When you do your thing right, you really make the party.

Second, now that I know what a great tank can accomplish, I want to become a better party-oriented rogue (for PvE). So, what do tanks want a rogue to do? What do you hate a rogue doing? It seems like you have the hardest job so anything I can do to make that easier...

Huikreu

[Crowsfoot]

Things rogues do that make tanking harder:

1) Pulling Mobs: a common practice is to "set" pulls. Rather, a tank runs in first Grabs as much aggro as he can. However, rogues often find a need to pull more mobs half way through a pull. This is VERY annoying. Now I have to taunt those mobs and try to pull them into where the other mobs already were all the while maintaining aggro from the original pull. In season 1 the common rules for elite were as follows "1) follow the tank 2) spam pots" the first one seems lost now a days. No matter how fast you want the run to go, it will be faster if everyone dies.

2) Running in Circles AS steals the most aggro of any rogue skill. However, rogues who run in circles around the pull end up shooting each mob individually. The result is I lose the aggro of each of those mobs one by one. Now, the tank has to run around like a chicken with its head cut off "running clean up." You can move, and you should, but try to focus on a small area of mobs since your class is designed for single target damage.

3) Staying in Red Zones this applies mainly to elite tindirn. A lot of the newer mobs do area based "splash" damage. As such, it doesn't matter how much aggro I hold, you will still be injured. This is where moving comes into play. You really can't stay still. Make a small route (preferably back and forth rather than a circle) to avoid any splash damage attacks (like healers and komodos) that may one hit you.

Things rogues do that make tanking easer:

1) Bombs I understand that bombs buff damage, however they also buff 20% armor. This is a god sent for tanking. There is nothing more annoying than a rogue who has no be but places them where only they can use them. The best rogue bomb placement I have seen are those who can place the bomb, within error, where the edge touches me and the opposite touches them. We both get the buff which speeds up the run as well as makes staying alive easier.

2) Traps this is more of a luck thing. Traps make holding aggro a lot easier only when they pull all the mobs together (the net upgrade which is still only a chance to happen). In the cases it does happen, the pull generally goes a lot faster with exception to Tindirin maps where the healer can get lost in the crowd.

3) Killing Mobs in the Right Order this one may sound odd but it is probably the most common "mistake" (if you can call it that) that I see. Certain mobs make tanking much harder and by consequence the pull longer. IMO, the proper order to kill mobs in, when possible (it not always is), is (for at least Tindirin maps): healers, then komodos (also known as dogs) and Masked archers (not to be confused with basic archers), then regular archers and snakes. The absolute last mob you should kill is spear users. Spear users have the lowest damage and crit but also the highest HP and armor. They provide the lowest threat to warriors and should be ignored until they are the last ones remaining. This also applies (probably even more so) to mages with ice. Ice is best used on archers, and worst used on Mons they don't freeze (like komodos).

[Jirikjurasek]

Pin that post on leaderboard for everyone can read it

I always looked sadly on cooldowns on HoR and Jugg, when some rogue pull another group of mobs and after their death they are really surprised that I didnt hold aggro

[Midievalmodel]

Awesome mini-guide/post. Also its important to remember the max number of enemies us warriors can aggro with our aggro skills is 5 at a time.

[Jirikjurasek]

Also its important to remember the max number of enemies us warriors can aggro with our aggro skills is 5 at a time.

Really?

[Crowsfoot]

Awesome mini-guide/post. Also its important to remember the max number of enemies us warriors can aggro with our aggro skills is 5 at a time.

False. Just, false. Most pulls are 5-10+ in Tindirin. I would say 20 is a good limit on certain maps. It really depends on that map, shuyal has hundreds of vines that are easy to tank and thus you can do larger pulls.

[CrazyTank]

False. Just, false. Most pulls are 5-10+ in Tindirin. I would say 20 is a good limit on certain maps. It really depends on that map, shuyal has hundreds of vines that are easy to tank and thus you can do larger pulls.

maybe he is talking from his point of view. Everyone has their own limit depending on their gear/skill/practice. But definitely not 5

[Crowsfoot]

Awesome mini-guide/post. Also its important to remember the max number of enemies us warriors can aggro with our aggro skills is 5 at a time.

maybe he is talking from his point of view. Everyone has their own limit depending on their gear/skill/practice. But definitely not 5

My sharp reaction was to the phrase "us warriors." IMO, speak for yourself and back up why that strategy is best. Open claims are rumorous and usually false. In this case, I think most tanks can tank more than 5 mobs at a time.

[alexdroog]

There are two mobs that give me the creeps
- The blue ice giants in Oltgar can 1-hit me
- This one little small brown pet in The wilds at the beginning keep killing my teammates. (In the other maps they don't hit that hard?)
How can I handle these best?

[Hectororius]

Awesome mini-guide/post. Also its important to remember the max number of enemies us warriors can aggro with our aggro skills is 5 at a time.

False. Just, false. Most pulls are 5-10+ in Tindirin. I would say 20 is a good limit on certain maps. It really depends on that map, shuyal has hundreds of vines that are easy to tank and thus you can do larger pulls.

maybe he is talking from his point of view. Everyone has their own limit depending on their gear/skill/practice. But definitely not 5

My sharp reaction was to the phrase "us warriors." IMO, speak for yourself and back up why that strategy is best. Open claims are rumorous and usually false. In this case, I think most tanks can tank more than 5 mobs at a time.

I think he might have meant to say the most number of mobs we can TAUNT is 5 at a time with our skills and not the total number of mobs we can hold aggro on.

maybe

[GoodSyntax]

My strategy as a Rogue to assist my tanks is:

- Drop veil into the middle of the mob pack, this gives the tank room to work within while managing aggro so he always gets the armor buff. So while the Rogues/Sorcs at the fringes may be able to get the DMG & Armor buff, the tank inside will always be buffed and better able to control aggro without having to pot furiously and worry about trying to stay in the smoke.
- Prioritize targets. As Crow said, kill mobs in order of threat level. Don't scatter your attacks across every mob in the pack. Pick one, pound him hard and kill him quickly. There is nothing more annoying than being surrounded by 4 or 5 scorns and a healer all with < 20% HP because your Rogues are running in circles sniping everything while the tanks is furiously trying to hold onto aggro. The most threatening mobs seem to have a very short attention span, so they are not only the most dangerous, but also the most difficult to control.
- Consider yourself the off-tank. Stay with your tank so he can manage aggro best, but also be aware of mobs that break from the pack to go get your squishies. A quick Aimed Shot at a breakaway mob is usually enough to bring it back to the group. Fighting in the pack allows you to best use your Aimed/Nox/Pierce combo to keep your crit stack up so you kill things quickly, but also helps to keep the mobs contained within the tanks Windmill radius. It will make the tanks job easier if one of his better geared Rogues are capable of shedding aggro off of the squishies and bringing it back to the mob cluster. As an added benefit, if your tank uses Vengeful Blood, staying in close proximity means you get a free mana spigot.
- Use your pet AA's wisely. Whenever you see your tank is at the brink of losing control of the mob pack because skills are on cooldown, sometimes an Ethyl AA is all the time needed for Windmill to cooldown so the tank can pick aggro back up. Also, if you are about to start a run to the boss (bypassing a lot of mobs), lead off with Malison's AA (for the Dodge), Scorch's shield, etc. These types of buffs means the tank can wait another second or two to before blowing Horn, which does make a significant difference on some maps (like Jagged Trail). Other examples of useful things is using pushback pets like Vixen, to push mobs into a corner to pack them in tightly, using George/Kelvin on one-hit bosses like Algaran where tanks Horn is on cooldown. Sometimes, especially on the run to Rendtail, a Vixen pushback when your lead tank is stunned by the troll can save everyone some plat, so be aware of the situation and the pet AA's at your disposal.
- If you are a fringe Rogue, and you notice a few mobs rushing towards you, don't run away and spread the cluster too much. The better option is to run the mobs back towards the cluster and exit out the other side. This gives the tank a chance to reacquire aggro. If Rogues/Sorcs start running away whenever mobs start attacking, it stretches out the pack and makes the tanks job impossible. Help a brother out and keep that pack tight. This makes DoT skills and crowd control skills more effective, so it's a win all the way around.
- Take out the totems! Whenever your group draws a shielded shaman, take out the totem! Even if that means breaking from the rest of the party, not taking down the totem will lead to trouble. The best way to do this is as soon as the tank draws aggro, run through the pack (don't attack anything...keep your threat level low so the mobs follow the tank), and kill the totem. Then, you can return back to the mob pack with a charged Nox (for the DoT) and get back into the fight.


To be honest, the off-tank suggestion is only suitable for Rogues that are super comfortable running elites and are capable of evading red zones and spotting the tell-tale electric windups of the scorns. Off-tank style Rogues will likely die more often, and it isn't a strategy for everyone, but that's what I do. If you have Dragonebone Daggers, the AoE stun proc in the middle of a tight pack can be devastating!

[Crowsfoot]

My strategy as a Rogue to assist my tanks is:

- Drop veil into the middle of the mob pack, this gives the tank room to work within while managing aggro so he always gets the armor buff. So while the Rogues/Sorcs at the fringes may be able to get the DMG & Armor buff, the tank inside will always be buffed and better able to control aggro without having to pot furiously and worry about trying to stay in the smoke.
- Prioritize targets. As Crow said, kill mobs in order of threat level. Don't scatter your attacks across every mob in the pack. Pick one, pound him hard and kill him quickly. There is nothing more annoying than being surrounded by 4 or 5 scorns and a healer all with < 20% HP because your Rogues are running in circles sniping everything while the tanks is furiously trying to hold onto aggro. The most threatening mobs seem to have a very short attention span, so they are not only the most dangerous, but also the most difficult to control.
- Consider yourself the off-tank. Stay with your tank so he can manage aggro best, but also be aware of mobs that break from the pack to go get your squishies. A quick Aimed Shot at a breakaway mob is usually enough to bring it back to the group. Fighting in the pack allows you to best use your Aimed/Nox/Pierce combo to keep your crit stack up so you kill things quickly, but also helps to keep the mobs contained within the tanks Windmill radius. It will make the tanks job easier if one of his better geared Rogues are capable of shedding aggro off of the squishies and bringing it back to the mob cluster. As an added benefit, if your tank uses Vengeful Blood, staying in close proximity means you get a free mana spigot.
- Use your pet AA's wisely. Whenever you see your tank is at the brink of losing control of the mob pack because skills are on cooldown, sometimes an Ethyl AA is all the time needed for Windmill to cooldown so the tank can pick aggro back up. Also, if you are about to start a run to the boss (bypassing a lot of mobs), lead off with Malison's AA (for the Dodge), Scorch's shield, etc. These types of buffs means the tank can wait another second or two to before blowing Horn, which does make a significant difference on some maps (like Jagged Trail). Other examples of useful things is using pushback pets like Vixen, to push mobs into a corner to pack them in tightly, using George/Kelvin on one-hit bosses like Algaran where tanks Horn is on cooldown. Sometimes, especially on the run to Rendtail, a Vixen pushback when your lead tank is stunned by the troll can save everyone some plat, so be aware of the situation and the pet AA's at your disposal.
- If you are a fringe Rogue, and you notice a few mobs rushing towards you, don't run away and spread the cluster too much. The better option is to run the mobs back towards the cluster and exit out the other side. This gives the tank a chance to reacquire aggro. If Rogues/Sorcs start running away whenever mobs start attacking, it stretches out the pack and makes the tanks job impossible. Help a brother out and keep that pack tight. This makes DoT skills and crowd control skills more effective, so it's a win all the way around.
- Take out the totems! Whenever your group draws a shielded shaman, take out the totem! Even if that means breaking from the rest of the party, not taking down the totem will lead to trouble. The best way to do this is as soon as the tank draws aggro, run through the pack (don't attack anything...keep your threat level low so the mobs follow the tank), and kill the totem. Then, you can return back to the mob pack with a charged Nox (for the DoT) and get back into the fight.


To be honest, the off-tank suggestion is only suitable for Rogues that are super comfortable running elites and are capable of evading red zones and spotting the tell-tale electric windups of the scorns. Off-tank style Rogues will likely die more often, and it isn't a strategy for everyone, but that's what I do. If you have Dragonebone Daggers, the AoE stun proc in the middle of a tight pack can be devastating!

This works well in elite Tindirin. Good luck staying near me in Nordor. Most mobs do one hit area damage and debuff movement speed. That is the only point I find controversial.

I dont feel pets are THAT important; however, a well practiced player of any class should learn this. Even pets like Samael should be reserved for after the pull is "set" to ensure as many mobs are within range as possible (assuming you aren't macroing).

[Crowsfoot]

There are two mobs that give me the creeps
- The blue ice giants in Oltgar can 1-hit me
- This one little small brown pet in The wilds at the beginning keep killing my teammates. (In the other maps they don't hit that hard?)
How can I handle these best?

Yes, giant glacians are the priority in Nordor maps.

The "little brown pet in The wilds" is commonly referred to as komodos and/or dogs. They have a heavy armor and dodge debuff which stacks with its fellow komodos'. Additionally, their area based attack deals high damage. However, I still believe healers should take priority over them.

[flluby2]

Things rogues do that make tanking harder:

1) Pulling Mobs: a common practice is to "set" pulls. Rather, a tank runs in first Grabs as much aggro as he can. However, rogues often find a need to pull more mobs half way through a pull. This is VERY annoying. Now I have to taunt those mobs and try to pull them into where the other mobs already were all the while maintaining aggro from the original pull. In season 1 the common rules for elite were as follows "1) follow the tank 2) spam pots" the first one seems lost now a days. No matter how fast you want the run to go, it will be faster if everyone dies.

2) Running in Circles AS steals the most aggro of any rogue skill. However, rogues who run in circles around the pull end up shooting each mob individually. The result is I lose the aggro of each of those mobs one by one. Now, the tank has to run around like a chicken with its head cut off "running clean up." You can move, and you should, but try to focus on a small area of mobs since your class is designed for single target damage.

3) Staying in Red Zones this applies mainly to elite tindirn. A lot of the newer mobs do area based "splash" damage. As such, it doesn't matter how much aggro I hold, you will still be injured. This is where moving comes into play. You really can't stay still. Make a small route (preferably back and forth rather than a circle) to avoid any splash damage attacks (like healers and komodos) that may one hit you.

Things rogues do that make tanking easer:

1) Bombs I understand that bombs buff damage, however they also buff 20% armor. This is a god sent for tanking. There is nothing more annoying than a rogue who has no be but places them where only they can use them. The best rogue bomb placement I have seen are those who can place the bomb, within error, where the edge touches me and the opposite touches them. We both get the buff which speeds up the run as well as makes staying alive easier.

2) Traps this is more of a luck thing. Traps make holding aggro a lot easier only when they pull all the mobs together (the net upgrade which is still only a chance to happen). In the cases it does happen, the pull generally goes a lot faster with exception to Tindirin maps where the healer can get lost in the crowd.

3) Killing Mobs in the Right Order this one may sound odd but it is probably the most common "mistake" (if you can call it that) that I see. Certain mobs make tanking much harder and by consequence the pull longer. IMO, the proper order to kill mobs in, when possible (it not always is), is (for at least Tindirin maps): healers, then komodos (also known as dogs) and Masked archers (not to be confused with basic archers), then regular archers and snakes. The absolute last mob you should kill is spear users. Spear users have the lowest damage and crit but also the highest HP and armor. They provide the lowest threat to warriors and should be ignored until they are the last ones remaining. This also applies (probably even more so) to mages with ice. Ice is best used on archers, and worst used on Mons they don't freeze (like komodos).

whoa bro, thanks for putting this out.
i still could taste that frustration i felt when running with my old guild mates with "pro" pvp rogues who refused to wait for tank to pull mobs and run ahead, kiting and dropping heal packs, and then end up dead when i failed to catch the mobs aggro.
I was accused of "drama" when I all I asked for was basically all you mentioned above.
1. Wait for the pull. When the mobs are coming and packed it is the ripe time to start attacking, charge veil and drop trap (optional).
2. Focus on shaman healer, especially the shielded ones, when unshielded, as they could not be frozen.
3. Shaman and komodo basically likes to one hits rogues and mages, keep yourself alive by staying at a distance or use speed pet to move away from red zones.
4. As a rogue, your main focus is to take down greatest threat to the party, in tindirin map, it is the healer, then ranged enemies, then melee last. Healer does a heal over time to the entire mobs. No point attacking the other mobs when they are going to get healed.
Mage job is to assist tank in mobs control and that is stunning and freezing and doing dot to the entire mobs.

[Midievalmodel]

My sharp reaction was to the phrase "us warriors." IMO, speak for yourself and back up why that strategy is best. Open claims are rumorous and usually false. In this case, I think most tanks can tank more than 5 mobs at a time.

Yeah my bad I probably did not clarify it correctly. What I meant was when you use a single skill like jugg that skill max taunt 5 mobs. With combinations of auto attack and skills you can definitely aggro more than 5 mobs. Again I wasn't clear. Thanks Hectororius for explaining what I was trying to say.

[Crowsfoot]

Yeah my bad I probably did not clarify it correctly. What I meant was when you use a single skill like jugg that skill max taunt 5 mobs. With combinations of auto attack and skills you can definitely aggro more than 5 mobs. Again I wasn't clear. Thanks Hectororius for explaining what I was trying to say.

Makes more sense now. However, a skill like WM hits 5 mobs multiple times, in theory (and practice) this skill can taunt more than 5 mobs per cast with practice.