Balancing The Current Meta

[Jyuu1205]

Hey guys,

Just finished re-reading over lunch.

Trying to find a nice way to say this, but you're biting off too much. We're looking for specific changes, not rebalancing everything or making sweeping changes to how skills work. We all acknowledge that Pocket Legends balance is well, not very balanced. There are huge swings in power in the game. It was the Studios first mobile game and yeah, we've learned from that. That being said, we're not looking to go back and re-do skills from the ground up. Might as well get started on PL2, ya know?

So, can we pull this back to specific, end game things? Like nurf Savage sets by specifically taking X off them.

Thanks!

PL2 sounds like a good idea too but including endgame, you might as well as fix the low lvl pvp range too. Thanks!

[Ks_Leon]

Hey guys,

Just finished re-reading over lunch.

Trying to find a nice way to say this, but you're biting off too much. We're looking for specific changes, not rebalancing everything or making sweeping changes to how skills work. We all acknowledge that Pocket Legends balance is well, not very balanced. There are huge swings in power in the game. It was the Studios first mobile game and yeah, we've learned from that. That being said, we're not looking to go back and re-do skills from the ground up. Might as well get started on PL2, ya know?

So, can we pull this back to specific, end game things? Like nurf Savage sets by specifically taking X off them.

Thanks!

Yeah i agree about started PL2.Yay New PL Party.

[Tyranno-]

I'm in total agreement with you on reducing or capping dodge. It's unfortunate the way skills stack can't be simply nerfed to prevent bears gettiing ridiculously high dodge. That is, after all, the primary reason ppl choose bears and max dodge skills for pvp while ignoring slashes and rendering bears into less useful rhino-bears in pve.

I would welcome a huge reduction in dodge - even if it seems to cripple my pve-only bears. Skilled players will overcome such a nerf in dodge. At the very least it would make pvp bears a less attractive choice and require skill to play instead of buff-beckon-stomp only.

Id be happy for any nerf of savage that stems the polluting tide of bears that are absolutely unskilled in pve and overwhelming runs.

Fantastic work Micah. Thx for your efforts

[Gaunab]

Micah, the amount of effort you put into this thread is impressive, a very good read. However, after reading through the entirety of it once, there are a few things I want to comment on.

Firstly, you got the mechanics of blinding shot wrong. If the skill is dodged the hit debuff is dodged as well. Just like every other debuff. This makes for a double gamble against bears. (Will blind hit?+Will beckon miss/get dodged).

Secondly, you need to broaden your perspective when trying to rebalance endgame PvP as a whole. I'm not trying to discredit your work but it seems like this was done from mainly a birds point of view. If a bears beckon couldn't be dodged he could beckonstomp everyone across the map (except if he was hit debuffed. Which would make it luckbased again.) Mages could freeze you literally forever, with icestorm and frostbite which have shorter recharge times than stomp/avian scream. same goes for double roots (slightly longer recharge tho). Being able to dodge those immobilising skills is a vital part of tanks especially bears who dont have the ability to heal.

And finally, it also seems like this wasn't written from an endgamers point of view. The 60+% hit debuffs are by no means good game design, which anyone who played as a str char at endgame could confirm.

I like some of the ideas tho, mainly the trade dodge->armor, and the scaling of health and mana.

I hope I don't come off too harsh, I'll try typing up something more constructive later, but I just felt like I had to put this out there.

[MightyMicah]

Micah, the amount of effort you put into this thread is impressive, a very good read. However, after reading through the entirety of it once, there are a few things I want to comment on.

Firstly, you got the mechanics of blinding shot wrong. If the skill is dodged the hit debuff is dodged as well. Just like every other debuff. This makes for a double gamble against bears. (Will blind hit?+Will beckon miss/get dodged).

Secondly, you need to broaden your perspective when trying to rebalance endgame PvP as a whole. I'm not trying to discredit your work but it seems like this was done from mainly a birds point of view. If a bears beckon couldn't be dodged he could beckonstomp everyone across the map (except if he was hit debuffed. Which would make it luckbased again.) Mages could freeze you literally forever, with icestorm and frostbite which have shorter recharge times than stomp/avian scream. same goes for double roots (slightly longer recharge tho). Being able to dodge those immobilising skills is a vital part of tanks especially bears who dont have the ability to heal.

And finally, it also seems like this wasn't written from an endgamers point of view. The 60+% hit debuffs are by no means good game design, which anyone who played as a str char at endgame could confirm.

I like some of the ideas tho, mainly the trade dodge->armor, and the scaling of health and mana.

I hope I don't come off too harsh, I'll try typing up something more constructive later, but I just felt like I had to put this out there.

Yo, no problem at all! Constructive criticism is much welcomed.

First of all, actually you need to check again bro. You'll notice that after firing blind shot, whether it is dodged or not, the little yellow particle effects show up around the character indicating that they have been blinded. Hell scream doesn't work that way, but blind does.

Second, you do raise a valid point. Being crowd controlled to death can suck. However, it seems to me that every class can do so. Once bears draw you in, they can practically stun lock you. Birds could root you to death, and mages could freeze you. So as far as balance goes, every class will be doing fine. Also, I don't mean to insult you either but you seem to be approaching this from a bear's perspective. Most classes are not trying to just root you in place. In fact, birds and mages are most effective when kiting you around. Regardless, every class currently has access to at least one stun breaker, and if my ideas were implemented hit % could be debuffed enough to have a chance of the enemy missing. This would be perfect for bears who could have a guaranteed beckon followed by hell scream. In the end, I don't think we could speculate enough to form a solid conclusion which is why I mentioned minor tweaks after such an update being needed. Make sense?

Third, what I meant to say wasn't that the debuffs were perfect, but rather that the design of the debuffs were perfect. They simply haven't been carried out correctly. Also, part of the reason they aren't balanced is because everyone is sitting on roughly 100% hit due to their savage sets. Balance the savage sets and get people wearing their normal gear, and this shouldn't be an issue. If my ideas were carried out, I'd actually have savage's overall hit buffed by a decent amount. Perhaps 20-30 percent more. (In addition to the appropriate nerfs)

[Gaunab]

First of all, actually you need to check again bro. You'll notice that after firing blind shot, whether it is dodged or not, the little yellow particle effects show up around the character indicating that they have been blinded. Hell scream doesn't work that way, but blind does.

Well, you see the animation of roots, ice, weakness/nightmare and even stuns as well when they are dodged. That doesn't mean they actually work. I've played as a bird for way too long to be wrong on this. .-.


EDIT: I guess you have this misconception because you mainly play at 51, where bears miss even when they dodge blind and mages almost never dodge. Rift bears and buffed birds (except for warbirds) are above 130 hit, so you wouldnt expect them to miss anyways. Thats what I ment by limited perspective. :s

[Laar]

First of all, actually you need to check again bro. You'll notice that after firing blind shot, whether it is dodged or not, the little yellow particle effects show up around the character indicating that they have been blinded. Hell scream doesn't work that way, but blind does.

Well, you see the animation of roots, ice, weakness/nightmare and even stuns as well when they are dodged. That doesn't mean they actually work. I've played as a bird for way too long to be wrong on this. .-.

^^^ this.

[MightyMicah]

Well, you see the animation of roots, ice, weakness/nightmare and even stuns as well when they are dodged. That doesn't mean they actually work. I've played as a bird for way too long to be wrong on this. .-.


EDIT: I guess you have this misconception because you mainly play at 51, where bears miss even when they dodge blind and mages almost never dodge. Rift bears and buffed birds (except for warbirds) are above 130 hit, so you wouldnt expect them to miss anyways. Thats what I ment by limited perspective. :s

Hmm you have a point. I'll have to look into this, for the longest time I thought it was as you say and then several people told me it was otherwise. I guess I'll find out.

Edit: After further testing, you're absolutely right! I stand corrected. I'm not exactly sure how I let myself get swindled into believing that. Thanks for the correction!

[Depury]

Wow! You should consider a career as a newspaper writer, because you went very in-depth with this! I'm truly amazed.

[XghostzX]

Awesome stuff Micah, thank you for being such a committed member of this community

[MightyMicah]

Thanks guys!

[Waug]

good try but -

There's hardly anything new and anything very presice that devs are looking for, in this big discussion there are very basic points that 'we' kept saying regarding balance I.e

armor isnot scaled with damage
dodge, crit, hit are insane in a point of view
etc

These points have been told by many times, if devs had the time to read posts they would get better points in a precise and workable form, but unfortunately they didn't have time and try to listen from someone who barely do endgame pvp.

By workable I meant something like this that devs expected -

savage's dodge should be less by this amount etc.

[XghostzX]

good try but -

There's hardly anything new and anything very presice that devs are looking for, in this big discussion there are very basic points that 'we' kept saying regarding balance I.e

armor isnot scaled with damage
dodge, crit, hit are insane in a point of view
etc

These points have been told by many times, if devs had the time to read posts they would get better points in a precise and workable form, but unfortunately they didn't have time and try to listen from someone who barely do endgame pvp.

By workable I meant something like this that devs expected -

savage's dodge should be less by this amount etc.

I think that's because the general player-base for endgame isn't even sure if STS knows what they're doing anymore.

I think it's pathetic how we have to give STS exact numbers for their own game. Something is not right here... it should be enough that we tell them things like "dodge, Crit, Damage output on savage, etc" where they can go test for themselves. This proves to us that there other games have been left in the dumps.

This whole system is starting to be flawed. Micah, I know you love your community, but you don't need to work for them...

[Waug]

its true, that its their game and they know it better but if u noticed their attitude toward balancing then its quite obvious that they r seeking exact numbers

techo said it cleary when they first tried to balace endhame
just g did this last time trying balance and now
sam doing this.

I personaly don't appericiate it rather they should listen the points and act according their knowledge on game mechanism.

I'm quite sure Sam also got inspired when micah said ppls r not proving data , then I noticed this thread also was not adequate from that perspective also the points raised by op was told many times and also there were many good points ppls raised over time that most probably devs did not read at all.

[MightyMicah]

I think that's because the general player-base for endgame isn't even sure if STS knows what they're doing anymore.

I think it's pathetic how we have to give STS exact numbers for their own game. Something is not right here... it should be enough that we tell them things like "dodge, Crit, Damage output on savage, etc" where they can go test for themselves. This proves to us that there other games have been left in the dumps.

This whole system is starting to be flawed. Micah, I know you love your community, but you don't need to work for them...

Well if it means the game being balanced, I wouldn't mind putting in the time. I think it's kind of pathetic as well, but it is what it is. For the longest time people have asked STS if some players could help with testing and balancing. Well, it seems to me STS is willing to give us a chance, so I'm willing to take it.

To be honest, though, the big reason I made this thread was to demonstrate to STS that a simple, "Nerf X down to Y" wasn't going to address the issue, since the issue is deeper than merely statistical imbalance. However, correct statistics have been pretty balanced in the past, and still is at some levels so I figure even just statistical balancing might be a step in the right direction.

[MightyMicah]

good try but -

There's hardly anything new and anything very presice that devs are looking for, in this big discussion there are very basic points that 'we' kept saying regarding balance I.e

armor isnot scaled with damage
dodge, crit, hit are insane in a point of view
etc

These points have been told by many times, if devs had the time to read posts they would get better points in a precise and workable form, but unfortunately they didn't have time and try to listen from someone who barely do endgame pvp.

By workable I meant something like this that devs expected -

savage's dodge should be less by this amount etc.

Did you even read my thread? Smh...

[Hardcorexd]

Hmm gotcha. Well then honestly Samhayne, the biggest change needed is to cut off dodge. Cut it down on savage so that even with dodge buffs you can only get 40-50. I'd say you should do the same with crit keeping it's cap around 70-80 with buffs. If you remember correctly, that's about how you guys did it back in Sewer cap which was as balanced as the game has been so far.

If you want, you can compensate loss in dodge with extra armor and loss in crit for extra damage. All this will do is effectively reduce luck and increase skill because your Incomparables won't merely be able to be dodged all the time. Make sense? If you want, I can write up another thread going into the specifics of each set and what I'd recommend changing. Would that help? (Obviously I can't guarantee it would be perfect, but I do think I could get it pretty dang close, then you guys could take it from there )

But u can't reduce it to 40-50 or everyone is gonna be dex bear ad it is insane cuz bear has only two skills to catch kiting char and without dodge they are dead meat

[MightyMicah]

But u can't reduce it to 40-50 or everyone is gonna be dex bear ad it is insane cuz bear has only two skills to catch kiting char and without dodge they are dead meat

If 40-50 dodge isn't enough for you, you need to learn to play the game. If people go dex bear for the extra damage, they can mix and match some strength gear with dex to get the desired stats.

I think I'm going to write a thread about what stats should be changed on each set. I'd recommend saving your thoughts on what might happen until then. Try to approach balance with the mindset of, "What is fair, balanced, and requires skill?" Rather than, "Will this destroy my current build?"

[Hardcorexd]

If 40-50 dodge isn't enough for you, you need to learn to play the game. If people go dex bear for the extra damage, they can mix and match some strength gear with dex to get the desired stats.

I think I'm going to write a thread about what stats should be changed on each set. I'd recommend saving your thoughts on what might happen until then. Try to approach balance with the mindset of, "What is fair, balanced, and requires skill?" Rather than, "Will this destroy my current build?"

I feel that bears them self are weak if it weren't for the dodge because there's only like one beckon to use in 56 to pull or root bird in 12m if u nerf savage set bear and buffed to 40-50, then don't even talk about the dodge in 56 it would become bears being eaten.

[MightyMicah]

I feel that bears them self are weak if it weren't for the dodge because there's only like one beckon to use in 56 to pull or root bird in 12m if u nerf savage set bear and buffed to 40-50, then don't even talk about the dodge in 56 it would become bears being eaten.

At end game, loss in dodge will be compensated with extra armor and hp. If we modified 56 similar changes would be made, but currently 56 isn't being modified so you're good there.