Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 108

Thread: Guide to Advanced Mechanics in PL: DPS, Crits, etc.

  1. #41
    ELITE
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,337
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    452
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    163
    Thanked in
    110 Posts

    Default

    Looking at your numbers I would guess that speed (or dps) doesn't necessarily affect the skill damage as much as the base damage of the equipped weapon, both high and low damage, does. Otherwise, there would be a much bigger increase when Sunblessed Bow is equipped in comparison to SentGun, but instead they're almost identical.

    That's the one thing that sticks out right away.

    I'll try to help look at the numbers a little bit more.

    Thanks for your table
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixking View Post
    Grrr they answer drews question but not mine! That makes me mad,grrrrrrrrrrrr!
    Quote Originally Posted by Physiologic View Post
    We have leet lv 55-56 players dying at Plasma Pyramid...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengotengo View Post
    It's like someone gave me a bag of M&Ms, but there's a handful of candy-coated rabbit turds in the bag somewhere.

  2. #42
    Guardian of Alterra Physiologic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    2,287
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    26
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    164
    Thanked in
    48 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drewcapu View Post
    Looking at your numbers I would guess that speed (or dps) doesn't necessarily affect the skill damage as much as the base damage of the equipped weapon, both high and low damage, does. Otherwise, there would be a much bigger increase when Sunblessed Bow is equipped in comparison to SentGun, but instead they're almost identical.

    That's the one thing that sticks out right away.

    I'll try to help look at the numbers a little bit more.

    Thanks for your table
    I'm really stumped at how weapon speed and damage affect skill damage, because the increase in damage is so different on all weapons. I'll probably play around with these numbers more later after dinner. Not sure if anyone's figured them out yet; too lazy to dig up old posts.

  3. #43
    ELITE
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,337
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    452
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    163
    Thanked in
    110 Posts

    Default

    Best bet is probably to try to figure it out based on void/cyber/sentgun since they all have the same speed. At least that'll take out speed from the equation (for the time being).

    What's messing with me is how Sunblessed Bow can give Blast a high of 293 while SentGun gives Blast a high of 294. Perhaps here's a case where speed plays a part? It almost looks like there's some kind of cap to how much a skill can be increased, in terms of damage, regardless of future possible weapons? Ugh. I hope not.

    Maybe the extra Dex and Crit from SentGun plays a role?
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixking View Post
    Grrr they answer drews question but not mine! That makes me mad,grrrrrrrrrrrr!
    Quote Originally Posted by Physiologic View Post
    We have leet lv 55-56 players dying at Plasma Pyramid...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengotengo View Post
    It's like someone gave me a bag of M&Ms, but there's a handful of candy-coated rabbit turds in the bag somewhere.

  4. #44
    Guardian of Alterra Physiologic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    2,287
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    26
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    164
    Thanked in
    48 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drewcapu View Post
    Best bet is probably to try to figure it out based on void/cyber/sentgun since they all have the same speed. At least that'll take out speed from the equation (for the time being).

    What's messing with me is how Sunblessed Bow can give Blast a high of 293 while SentGun gives Blast a high of 294. Perhaps here's a case where speed plays a part? It almost looks like there's some kind of cap to how much a skill can be increased, in terms of damage, regardless of future possible weapons? Ugh. I hope not.

    Maybe the extra Dex and Crit from SentGun plays a role?
    It's just bizarre how it works out. I might just give up and ask the dev, lol.

  5. #45
    Banned TwinkTastical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    2,551
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    2 Posts

    Default

    Props for.... Having this much time on your hands ^.^

  6. #46
    Senior Member Echelong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Puerto Rico
    Posts
    1,414
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Physiologic View Post
    I'd need these damages to correspond to Shemrom's stat window exactly, and not everyone's build is the same, unless you can take those and equip it yourself and give me the figures you have?
    The damage I put where not from the weapon itself but from my drain life skill. What I am talking is that depending on the weapon and weapon speed you dish out more damage with the skills. I am not talking about weapon base damage.
    Sig by KLEMEN
    IGN: E͡ℭ͟ӈҿͥ͜lͣoͫղg level 56 Mega Mage/Sewer mage ~ EchelongX lvl 55 Dex Bird

  7. #47
    Luminary Poster Arterra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    behind you
    Posts
    7,815
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    58
    Thanked in
    40 Posts

    Default

    awesome... if you do in fact make a list of campaign armor values, it would need to be its own thread. very important facts there everyone wants to know.
    though you summed up the armor values of the campaign into a single value... i cant remember the mob types there, but is it only mummies or something? going to plasma pyramid it is clear to see that the three different colored djin mobs have different armor values, even more pronounced in shadow caves.
    404 - not found ...maybe one day...

  8. #48
    New Member WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    4
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenous View Post
    Excellent work. Now explain to us what hit % means and how it can be above 100%.

    -Rav
    hit% can be above 100% because the enemys have a dodge rate like us. you subtract the enemys dodge by your hit%...or at leastsomething like that i can assume. but we cant know for sure because the dodge is not a percentage like the hit rate. i just know its so we can have 100% hit on enemys that have a high dodge rate.

  9. #49
    Luminary Poster Arterra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    behind you
    Posts
    7,815
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    5
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    58
    Thanked in
    40 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW View Post
    hit% can be above 100% because the enemys have a dodge rate like us. you subtract the enemys dodge by your hit%...or at leastsomething like that i can assume. but we cant know for sure because the dodge is not a percentage like the hit rate. i just know its so we can have 100% hit on enemys that have a high dodge rate.
    didnt he JUST put doubt into this??
    404 - not found ...maybe one day...

  10. #50
    Senior Member Echelong's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Puerto Rico
    Posts
    1,414
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW View Post
    hit% can be above 100% because the enemys have a dodge rate like us. you subtract the enemys dodge by your hit%...or at leastsomething like that i can assume. but we cant know for sure because the dodge is not a percentage like the hit rate. i just know its so we can have 100% hit on enemys that have a high dodge rate.
    He tested this and found that there is little to no change in this with and without focus that is why he suggests that there may be a cap.
    Sig by KLEMEN
    IGN: E͡ℭ͟ӈҿͥ͜lͣoͫղg level 56 Mega Mage/Sewer mage ~ EchelongX lvl 55 Dex Bird

  11. #51
    Guardian of Alterra Kalielle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    486
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    13
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    19
    Thanked in
    12 Posts

    Default

    Wow! Nice work!!! One rarely gets to see something this thorough and comprehensive. Thank you for all the testing, this is amazing!
    Kalielle - level 56 mage | Kaley - level 55 roundup bear | Clusterstorm - level 55 rush paladin
    Quote Originally Posted by noobmigo View Post
    Clusterstorm? Pshh, he merely leads the fastest games ever.
    Pocket Legends Video Tutorial

  12. #52
    Guardian of Alterra Kalielle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    486
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    13
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    19
    Thanked in
    12 Posts

    Default

    One thing I'd be curious to know is whether the conclusion in the last part of the analysis, about dps vs damage, changes once you factor in reduction in damage from armor. In theory a higher damage weapon is better than a lower damage one of equal dps against mobs with high armor. That's because the armor reduction is applied for every hit, so for the higher speed weapon the reduction is applied more times than for the lower speed one (since there are more hits). So my guess is that against mobs with high armor like in AO3, at some point a gun/bow may be better than a talon even against bosses.
    Kalielle - level 56 mage | Kaley - level 55 roundup bear | Clusterstorm - level 55 rush paladin
    Quote Originally Posted by noobmigo View Post
    Clusterstorm? Pshh, he merely leads the fastest games ever.
    Pocket Legends Video Tutorial

  13. #53
    Guardian of Alterra Physiologic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    2,287
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    26
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    164
    Thanked in
    48 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shemron View Post
    The damage I put where not from the weapon itself but from my drain life skill. What I am talking is that depending on the weapon and weapon speed you dish out more damage with the skills. I am not talking about weapon base damage.
    Not weapon base damage - I ask for the damage seen in the left-hand side of your character as such:

    This is to compare the change in damage on normal damage range versus skill damage range.

    awesome... if you do in fact make a list of campaign armor values, it would need to be its own thread. very important facts there everyone wants to know.
    though you summed up the armor values of the campaign into a single value... i cant remember the mob types there, but is it only mummies or something? going to plasma pyramid it is clear to see that the three different colored djin mobs have different armor values, even more pronounced in shadow caves.
    The armor values are just for the mummies and desert nomads in Close Encounters, I apologize for not specifying. I can develop armor values, percentage of damage reduction values, and possibly even health values as well per campaign, though this may take quite some time to publish.

    One thing I'd be curious to know is whether the conclusion in the last part of the analysis, about dps vs damage, changes once you factor in reduction in damage from armor. In theory a higher damage weapon is better than a lower damage one of equal dps against mobs with high armor. That's because the armor reduction is applied for every hit, so for the higher speed weapon the reduction is applied more times than for the lower speed one (since there are more hits). So my guess is that against mobs with high armor like in AO3, at some point a gun/bow may be better than a talon even against bosses.
    Xymorg was helpful in pointing this out in this thread and I do agree that at some critical armor value, a weapon with high damage/low DPS and a weapon with low damage/high DPS will be equal, and above that armor value the high damage/low DPS weapon will win out. But keep in mind that value is assumed without debuffs; it may be quite possible to strip an enemy from its armor to a large enough percentage as to make the high DPS weapon more efficient than the low DPS weapon against a high armor enemy. The extent of "armor stripping" an enemy is currently an unknown value range, so that would have to be calculated as well to render my statement true or false

  14. #54
    Guardian of Alterra FluffNStuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Hundred Acre Woods
    Posts
    6,314
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    699
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    919
    Thanked in
    551 Posts

    Default

    Have not gotten a chance to read through all the comments yet, but wanted to point a couple things out:
    1) Dodge / Hit.
    I posed this question to Cinco in the chat and the answer was that there is a roll for hit/miss and a separate roll for for dodge, but hit dodge can effect the first roll and hit percentage can effect the second. As to the full effect, he was not giving that information up, as the actual equations are 'proprietary'.
    Also, Enemies DO debuff.

    2) DPS / Damage
    That section completely ignores the armor part, and what you want to take into account is effective dps.
    Consider two weapons:
    First has 50 damage and a speed of .5
    Second has 85 damage and a speed of 1
    So, basic dps is 100 on first, 85 on second.
    But now consider an enemy with 30 Armor:
    First is now (50 - 30) * 2 = 20
    Second is 85 - 30 = 55
    So the effective dps of the first is 20 and the second is 55.
    This does not even take into account the effect of damage on skills, but that gets extremely complicated because of the two hand skill add nerf.

    The Hundred Acre Legends:
    HunnySniper - HunnyStorm
    Please Fill out the End Game Pet Survey!|||||| What's With that Shield Icon?

  15. #55
    Guardian of Alterra Physiologic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    2,287
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    26
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    164
    Thanked in
    48 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffNStuff View Post
    Have not gotten a chance to read through all the comments yet, but wanted to point a couple things out:
    1) Dodge / Hit.
    I posed this question to Cinco in the chat and the answer was that there is a roll for hit/miss and a separate roll for for dodge, but hit dodge can effect the first roll and hit percentage can effect the second. As to the full effect, he was not giving that information up, as the actual equations are 'proprietary'.
    Also, Enemies DO debuff.

    2) DPS / Damage
    That section completely ignores the armor part, and what you want to take into account is effective dps.
    Consider two weapons:
    First has 50 damage and a speed of .5
    Second has 85 damage and a speed of 1
    So, basic dps is 100 on first, 85 on second.
    But now consider an enemy with 30 Armor:
    First is now (50 - 30) * 2 = 20
    Second is 85 - 30 = 55
    So the effective dps of the first is 20 and the second is 55.
    This does not even take into account the effect of damage on skills, but that gets extremely complicated because of the two hand skill add nerf.
    It appears the dodge roll as Cinco stated is some set value unaffected by any other user factor, as it is nearly consistent in all three weapon sets in a huge sample size (n=500, n=500, n=500). The miss roll however is extremely variable in at instances where hit% is above 100, but does not correlate with hit% itself. Perhaps I haven't had a larger sample size to detect a change yet. And my work is to figure out such proprietary equations

    Edit: Unless you meant he said DODGE in our stat window means it's a factor that influences enemy dodge, not our dodge? o.o

    And the damage/DPS with enemy armor I will edit. I did not consider that a factor as I was editing the guide (see my previous comment on this thread) but thank you for providing more proof that armor does change things around!

  16. #56
    Junior Member roszondas3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    14
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Default

    Have noti. Read the entire post to see if this idea was made... but. What if it uses a system similar to dungeons and dragons. I.e. a dice roll of some sort. In d&d a 20 is always a hit. And a 1. Is a miss. Maybe there is a similar system?

  17. #57
    Guardian of Alterra Physiologic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    2,287
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    26
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    164
    Thanked in
    48 Posts

    Default

    The reported hit% was too consistent beyond a fixed 50/50 rate, so unless it was a dice that favors one side over the other sides...

    In addition, I firmly believe that if you do indeed have a lower hit%, let's say around 50% (as opposed to 135% that I had), the number of either MISS or DODGE will be larger.

  18. #58
    Member Addicted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    96
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    3 Posts

    Default

    Wow! Amazing work... takes me back to research methods and stats classes in college.

    -Addicted
    Star Legends: Addicted, AddictedTank, AddictedEngi | Pocket Legends: AddictedElf, AddictedBird, AddictedBear | Arcane Legends: AddictedMage, AddictedRogue, AddictedTank

  19. #59
    Senior Member WhoIsThis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    2,036
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    116
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    557
    Thanked in
    140 Posts

    Default

    For maximum effective damage, it seems the ideal would be a long range, slow firing weapon, but with very high damage per hit. Furthermore, a significant critical hit percentage is more important than hit %.

    Hypothetical question - what if crit were say, 125% - would each shot land a critical?

  20. #60
    Guardian of Alterra Physiologic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    2,287
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    26
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    164
    Thanked in
    48 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoIsThis View Post
    For maximum effective damage, it seems the ideal would be a long range, slow firing weapon, but with very high damage per hit. Furthermore, a significant critical hit percentage is more important than hit %.

    Hypothetical question - what if crit were say, 125% - would each shot land a critical?
    Im 100% positive the answer is no, it'll make the game way too easy. There is most likely a fixed cap like the hit%, and with the new gear having loads of crit %, we may be able to determine this specific value.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •