Let's Talk About Class Balance!

[Remiem]

I've been seeing a lot of talk lately about class balance in Arcane Legends. Mostly about our favorite little blue dudes, the Sorcerers, but I'd love to gauge everyone's response to class balance in general so that I have clear suggestions to send back to the devs.

So! Let's discuss.

Please comment below with your feedback and suggestions on how we might improve class balance. And, let's keep in mind that BALANCE is the key word here. I know that everyone wants to be able to just own everyone in PvP, but that's not what balance is about. Each class should have their own strengths and weaknesses, and not feel either over or under powered.

Also, I know this is a hot topic and people can get fired up over something they are so passionate about. Please keep this discussion friendly, constructive and straight forward. This isn't the place to bash the game, other players or STS. This is the place for discussion about how we can make the game more fun for everyone.

Ready, set go!

[Niixed]

In a class balance discussion, there are a number of questions that, imo, get to the heart of the matter.

• How do we measure PvP class balance?
• What is the ideal PvP class balance?
• What is the current PvP class balance?
• If there is an imbalance what is the best way to achieve the right balance?

Equivalent Exchange

Interwoven in every game, and in reality itself, is the concept of equivalent exchange. It's easy enough to understand. You don't get something for nothing, you gotta pay for it in some way. You have to give something to get something in return, etc. Arcane Legends is no exception. If you want a particular pet for your character you have to pay for it, either through plat, gold, opening locked crates, farming, spending time begging, etc. Getting from level 40 to 41 means working through 10 levels worth of experience.

When considering the ideal PvP class balance it's important to apply equivalent exchange because if you don't you automatically create a situation where one class reaps the benefits that another class should receive. Iow, one class ends up paying for another class' benefits. Balance is a synonym for equivalent exchange.

Measure of Success

PvP is a zero sum game, making it easy to measure overall balance by comparing the kill per death ratio (KDR) of each class. The total number of all kills is always equal to the total number of all deaths. There are other ways to measure PvP success like peer recognition, flags, games won, assisted kills, etc, but that's not where the 'real money' is.

Ideal Balance

If Arcane Legends had only one class it would take 100% of kills and 100% of deaths. If arcane legends had only two classes and they were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 50% of kills and 50% of deaths. Arcane Legends has three classes. If the three classes were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 33.33% of kills and 33.33% of deaths.

Thankfully, the three classes are not equal since that would be boring and pointless. Each class has a strength which it (supposedly) pays for by its weakness.

IMHO, this is what class balance should look like with three classes:

Ideal Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent
Rogue	Highest	38.33%	Highest	38.33%
Sorcerer	Average	33.33%	Average	33.33%
Warrior	Lowest	28.33%	Lowest	28.33%

• Class KDR should ALWAYS be 1:1.
• Equivalent exchange occurs:
  
  • Rogues pay for 5% more kills with 5% more deaths
  • Sorcerers stay average
  • Warriors pay for 5% fewer deaths with 5% fewer kills
  
  
• No more than 10% variance between highest and lowest total number of kills and deaths. Too much variance means PvP becomes boring, unnatural, and prone to excessive dramazzzzz.
• A better than average KDR actually means something!
• Individual players are more challenged. They must now use skill, superior gear, better team coordination, etc, rather than rely on inequity.

Not Pretty

Now that we know what class balance should be, what is it actually like right now?

I looked at the CTF and TDM leaderboards earlier today and did ye olde manual data entry into a spreadsheet. First, the raw number of kills:

PvP Leaderboard CTF Kills
	Total	Percent
All	2,979,151	100.00%
Rogue	1,397,172	46.90%
Sorcerer	783,541	26.30%
Warrior	798,438	26.80%

PvP Leaderboard TDM Kills
	Total	Percent
All	1,843,232	100.00%
Rogue	898,673	48.76%
Sorcerer	519,434	28.18%
Warrior	425,125	23.06%

PvP Leaderboard Combined Kills
	Total	Percent
All	4,822,383	100.00%
Rogue	2,295,845	47.61%
Sorcerer	1,302,975	27.02%
Warrior	1,223,563	25.37%

The most remarkable stat is that the top 25 CTF sorcerers actually have fewer kills than the top 25 CTF warriors. o.0
The second most noteworthy stat is Rogues basically take half of all kills in PvP.

So what IS the the class balance right now?? WELLLL... We don't know the number of deaths for each of the leaderboard players (Hey Devs, how about a quick SQL script and u can post the results here? Plssssss!). I could painstakingly poll in game each player on the leaderboard.... uh, on second thought, no.

However, we can make an educated guess because we know a few facts:

• The deaths distribution will somewhat reflect the the kills distribution, i.e. because the kills are not balanced deaths are unlikely to be balanced.
• There is almost uniform agreement from every PvP player that mages receive the most number of deaths.

I think this is the most likely scenario:

Current Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent*
		100.00%		100.00%
Rogue	Highest	47.61%	Higher	37.00%
Sorcerer	Lower	27.02%	Highest	40.00%
Warrior	Lowest	25.37%	Lowest	23.00%

*guestimate

And again:

Ideal Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent
Rogue	Highest	38.33%	Highest	38.33%
Sorcerer	Average	33.33%	Average	33.33%
Warrior	Lowest	28.33%	Lowest	28.33%

The Kicker

Class Imbalance
	Kills	%Error	Deaths	%Error
Rogue	inflated	9.27%	deflated	1.33%
Sorcerer	deflated	6.31%	inflated	6.67%
Warrior	deflated	2.96%	deflated	5.33%

Assuming assumptions are correct, we now know:

• Rogue kills are inflated by 9.27%
• Rogue deaths are deflated by 1.33%
• Sorcerer kills are deflated by 6.31%
• Sorcerer deaths are inflated by 6.67%
• Warrior kills are deflated by 2.96%
• Warrior deaths are deflated by 5.33%

The Road Somewhat Less Traveled

It's really up to STS to investigate this matter further. They have all the information that could truly shed light on the current state of class balance. Individual class KDR should be 1:1 and if it isn't there's an imbalance problem. I'm 99.9% confident that there is a clear anti-mage/pro-rogue/pro-warrior bias in the current class balance scheme.

Everyone has their opinion on how to fix the imbalance, but as Remiem pointed out in chatbox, developers rightly fear the bane of unintended consequences. Looking at the current imbalance scheme it's difficult to tease out exactly which button(s) to press to correct the imbalance. Even if the developers find the right button, pushing it might cause an uproar. Best intentions and all that lol. That being said...

REMEMBER PvP started being awful for Sorcerers when stun immunity was introduced. Pets made it even worse for sorcerers. Then it became clear Rogues did too much damage and Warriors did too little so they were nerfed/buffed. It feels like developers thought the matter had been laid to rest, but now that is much less certain.

My suggestion on how to fix the imbalance? From a PR perspective it's better to buff than to nerf so a sorcerer buff of some kind seems the best option, all things considered.

[Arachnophobik]

In a class balance discussion, there are a number of questions that, imo, get to the heart of the matter.

• How do we measure PvP class balance?
• What is the ideal PvP class balance?
• What is the current PvP class balance?
• If there is an imbalance what is the best way to achieve the right balance?

Equivalent Exchange

Interwoven in every game, and in reality itself, is the concept of equivalent exchange. It's easy enough to understand. You don't get something for nothing, you gotta pay for it in some way. You have to give something to get something in return, etc. Arcane Legends is no exception. If you want a particular pet for your character you have to pay for it, either through plat, gold, opening locked crates, farming, spending time begging, etc. Getting from level 40 to 41 means working through 10 levels worth of experience.

When considering the ideal PvP class balance it's important to apply equivalent exchange because if you don't you automatically create a situation where one class reaps the benefits that another class should receive. Iow, one class ends up paying for another class' benefits. Balance is a synonym for equivalent exchange.

Measure of Success

PvP is a zero sum game, making it easy to measure overall balance by comparing the kill per death ratio (KDR) of each class. The total number of all kills is always equal to the total number of all deaths. There are other ways to measure PvP success like peer recognition, flags, games won, assisted kills, etc, but that's not where the 'real money' is.

Ideal Balance

If Arcane Legends had only one class it would take 100% of kills and 100% of deaths. If arcane legends had only two classes and they were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 50% of kills and 50% of deaths. Arcane Legends has three classes. If the three classes were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 33.33% of kills and 33.33% of deaths.

Thankfully, the three classes are not equal since that would be boring and pointless. Each class has a strength which it (supposedly) pays for by its weakness.

IMHO, this is what class balance should look like with three classes:

Ideal Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent
Rogue	Highest	38.33%	Highest	38.33%
Sorcerer	Average	33.33%	Average	33.33%
Warrior	Lowest	28.33%	Lowest	28.33%

• Class KDR should ALWAYS be 1:1.
• Equivalent exchange occurs:
  
  • Rogues pay for 5% more kills with 5% more deaths
  • Sorcerers stay average
  • Warriors pay for 5% fewer deaths with 5% fewer kills
  
  
• No more than 10% variance between highest and lowest total number of kills and deaths. Too much variance means PvP becomes boring, unnatural, and prone to excessive dramazzzzz.
• A better than average KDR actually means something!
• Individual players are more challenged. They must now use skill, superior gear, better team coordination, etc, rather than rely on inequity.

Not Pretty

Now that we know what class balance should be, what is it actually like right now?

I looked at the CTF and TDM leaderboards earlier today and did ye olde manual data entry into a spreadsheet. First, the raw number of kills:

PvP Leaderboard CTF Kills
	Total	Percent
All	2,979,151	100.00%
Rogue	1,397,172	46.90%
Sorcerer	783,541	26.30%
Warrior	798,438	26.80%

PvP Leaderboard TDM Kills
	Total	Percent
All	1,843,232	100.00%
Rogue	898,673	48.76%
Sorcerer	519,434	28.18%
Warrior	425,125	23.06%

PvP Leaderboard Combined Kills
	Total	Percent
All	4,822,383	100.00%
Rogue	2,295,845	47.61%
Sorcerer	1,302,975	27.02%
Warrior	1,223,563	25.37%

The most remarkable stat is that the top 25 CTF sorcerers actually have fewer kills than the top 25 CTF warriors. o.0
The second most noteworthy stat is Rogues basically take half of all kills in PvP.

So what IS the the class balance right now?? WELLLL... We don't know the number of deaths for each of the leaderboard players (Hey Devs, how about a quick SQL script and u can post the results here? Plssssss!). I could painstakingly poll in game each player on the leaderboard.... uh, on second thought, no.

However, we can make an educated guess because we know a few facts:

• The deaths distribution will somewhat reflect the the kills distribution, i.e. because the kills are not balanced deaths are unlikely to be balanced.
• There is almost uniform agreement from every PvP player that mages receive the most number of deaths.

I think this is the most likely scenario:

Current Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent*
		100.00%		100.00%
Rogue	Highest	47.61%	Higher	37.00%
Sorcerer	Lower	27.02%	Highest	40.00%
Warrior	Lowest	25.37%	Lowest	23.00%

*guestimate

And again:

Ideal Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent
Rogue	Highest	38.33%	Highest	38.33%
Sorcerer	Average	33.33%	Average	33.33%
Warrior	Lowest	28.33%	Lowest	28.33%

The Kicker

Class Imbalance
	Kills	%Error	Deaths	%Error
Rogue	inflated	9.27%	deflated	1.33%
Sorcerer	deflated	6.31%	inflated	6.67%
Warrior	deflated	2.96%	deflated	5.33%

Assuming assumptions are correct, we now know:

• Rogue kills are inflated by 9.27%
• Rogue deaths are deflated by 1.33%
• Sorcerer kills are deflated by 6.31%
• Sorcerer deaths are inflated by 6.67%
• Warrior kills are deflated by 2.96%
• Warrior deaths are deflated by 5.33%

The Road Somewhat Less Traveled

It's really up to STS to investigate this matter further. They have all the information that could truly shed light on the current state of class balance. Individual class KDR should be 1:1 and if it isn't there's an imbalance problem. I'm 99.9% confident that there is a clear anti-mage/pro-rogue/pro-warrior bias in the current class balance scheme.

Everyone has their opinion on how to fix the imbalance, but as Remiem pointed out in chatbox, developers rightly fear the bane of unintended consequences. Looking at the current imbalance scheme it's difficult to tease out exactly which button(s) to press to correct the imbalance. Even if the developers find the right button, pushing it might cause an uproar. Best intentions and all that lol. That being said...

REMEMBER PvP started being awful for Sorcerers when stun immunity was introduced. Pets made it even worse for sorcerers. Then it became clear Rogues did too much damage and Warriors did too little so they were nerfed/buffed. It feels like developers thought the matter had been laid to rest, but now that is much less certain.

My suggestion on how to fix the imbalance? From a PR perspective it's better to buff than to nerf so a sorcerer buff of some kind seems the best option, all things considered.

this!

[Raregem]

In a class balance discussion, there are a number of questions that, imo, get to the heart of the matter.

• How do we measure PvP class balance?
• What is the ideal PvP class balance?
• What is the current PvP class balance?
• If there is an imbalance what is the best way to achieve the right balance?

Equivalent Exchange

Interwoven in every game, and in reality itself, is the concept of equivalent exchange. It's easy enough to understand. You don't get something for nothing, you gotta pay for it in some way. You have to give something to get something in return, etc. Arcane Legends is no exception. If you want a particular pet for your character you have to pay for it, either through plat, gold, opening locked crates, farming, spending time begging, etc. Getting from level 40 to 41 means working through 10 levels worth of experience.

When considering the ideal PvP class balance it's important to apply equivalent exchange because if you don't you automatically create a situation where one class reaps the benefits that another class should receive. Iow, one class ends up paying for another class' benefits. Balance is a synonym for equivalent exchange.

Measure of Success

PvP is a zero sum game, making it easy to measure overall balance by comparing the kill per death ratio (KDR) of each class. The total number of all kills is always equal to the total number of all deaths. There are other ways to measure PvP success like peer recognition, flags, games won, assisted kills, etc, but that's not where the 'real money' is.

Ideal Balance

If Arcane Legends had only one class it would take 100% of kills and 100% of deaths. If arcane legends had only two classes and they were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 50% of kills and 50% of deaths. Arcane Legends has three classes. If the three classes were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 33.33% of kills and 33.33% of deaths.

Thankfully, the three classes are not equal since that would be boring and pointless. Each class has a strength which it (supposedly) pays for by its weakness.

IMHO, this is what class balance should look like with three classes:

Ideal Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent
Rogue	Highest	38.33%	Highest	38.33%
Sorcerer	Average	33.33%	Average	33.33%
Warrior	Lowest	28.33%	Lowest	28.33%

• Class KDR should ALWAYS be 1:1.
• Equivalent exchange occurs:
  
  • Rogues pay for 5% more kills with 5% more deaths
  • Sorcerers stay average
  • Warriors pay for 5% fewer deaths with 5% fewer kills
  
  
• No more than 10% variance between highest and lowest total number of kills and deaths. Too much variance means PvP becomes boring, unnatural, and prone to excessive dramazzzzz.
• A better than average KDR actually means something!
• Individual players are more challenged. They must now use skill, superior gear, better team coordination, etc, rather than rely on inequity.

Not Pretty

Now that we know what class balance should be, what is it actually like right now?

I looked at the CTF and TDM leaderboards earlier today and did ye olde manual data entry into a spreadsheet. First, the raw number of kills:

PvP Leaderboard CTF Kills
	Total	Percent
All	2,979,151	100.00%
Rogue	1,397,172	46.90%
Sorcerer	783,541	26.30%
Warrior	798,438	26.80%

PvP Leaderboard TDM Kills
	Total	Percent
All	1,843,232	100.00%
Rogue	898,673	48.76%
Sorcerer	519,434	28.18%
Warrior	425,125	23.06%

PvP Leaderboard Combined Kills
	Total	Percent
All	4,822,383	100.00%
Rogue	2,295,845	47.61%
Sorcerer	1,302,975	27.02%
Warrior	1,223,563	25.37%

The most remarkable stat is that the top 25 CTF sorcerers actually have fewer kills than the top 25 CTF warriors. o.0
The second most noteworthy stat is Rogues basically take half of all kills in PvP.

So what IS the the class balance right now?? WELLLL... We don't know the number of deaths for each of the leaderboard players (Hey Devs, how about a quick SQL script and u can post the results here? Plssssss!). I could painstakingly poll in game each player on the leaderboard.... uh, on second thought, no.

However, we can make an educated guess because we know a few facts:

• The deaths distribution will somewhat reflect the the kills distribution, i.e. because the kills are not balanced deaths are unlikely to be balanced.
• There is almost uniform agreement from every PvP player that mages receive the most number of deaths.

I think this is the most likely scenario:

Current Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent*
		100.00%		100.00%
Rogue	Highest	47.61%	Higher	37.00%
Sorcerer	Lower	27.02%	Highest	40.00%
Warrior	Lowest	25.37%	Lowest	23.00%

*guestimate

And again:

Ideal Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent
Rogue	Highest	38.33%	Highest	38.33%
Sorcerer	Average	33.33%	Average	33.33%
Warrior	Lowest	28.33%	Lowest	28.33%

The Kicker

Class Imbalance
	Kills	%Error	Deaths	%Error
Rogue	inflated	9.27%	deflated	1.33%
Sorcerer	deflated	6.31%	inflated	6.67%
Warrior	deflated	2.96%	deflated	5.33%

Assuming assumptions are correct, we now know:

• Rogue kills are inflated by 9.27%
• Rogue deaths are deflated by 1.33%
• Sorcerer kills are deflated by 6.31%
• Sorcerer deaths are inflated by 6.67%
• Warrior kills are deflated by 2.96%
• Warrior deaths are deflated by 5.33%

The Road Somewhat Less Traveled

It's really up to STS to investigate this matter further. They have all the information that could truly shed light on the current state of class balance. Individual class KDR should be 1:1 and if it isn't there's an imbalance problem. I'm 99.9% confident that there is a clear anti-mage/pro-rogue/pro-warrior bias in the current class balance scheme.

Everyone has their opinion on how to fix the imbalance, but as Remiem pointed out in chatbox, developers rightly fear the bane of unintended consequences. Looking at the current imbalance scheme it's difficult to tease out exactly which button(s) to press to correct the imbalance. Even if the developers find the right button, pushing it might cause an uproar. Best intentions and all that lol. That being said...

REMEMBER PvP started being awful for Sorcerers when stun immunity was introduced. Pets made it even worse for sorcerers. Then it became clear Rogues did too much damage and Warriors did too little so they were nerfed/buffed. It feels like developers thought the matter had been laid to rest, but now that is much less certain.

My suggestion on how to fix the imbalance? From a PR perspective it's better to buff than to nerf so a sorcerer buff of some kind seems the best option, all things considered.

I think you did an awesome job here! I don't know how accurate the lb is for this though. With people dummy farming and getting thousands of kills this way the current lb is not a good judge of what each class can do IMO. Your ideal class balance chart is amazing though. Great work!

Your logic is sound, and even if the lbs weren't tampered with it would probably be a close match to your current numbers. It would just take the devs really diving in to figure it out.

[Niixed]

I think you did an awesome job here! I don't know how accurate the lb is for this though. With people dummy farming and getting thousands of kills this way the current lb is not a good judge of what each class can do IMO. Your ideal class balance chart is amazing though. Great work!

Your logic is sound, and even if the lbs weren't tampered with it would probably be a close match to your current numbers. It would just take the devs really diving in to figure it out.

You're exactly right that the lb numbers are not necessarily a great representation of what each class can do. But, what each class is doing says a lot as well. I think this is a winner-take-all situation. Rogues became dominant because players learned over time that for Rogues the kills were quicker/easier and the deaths were manageable. They learned mages were ok on kills but we're awful for deaths and warriors were decent on both. There are noticeably fewer mages in PvP because it's a miserable experience. Mage numbers are probably depressed because it sucks to play a mage. Many skilled pros don't bother spending the time/effort when there are better options.

[Alhuntrazeck]

In a class balance discussion, there are a number of questions that, imo, get to the heart of the matter.

• How do we measure PvP class balance?
• What is the ideal PvP class balance?
• What is the current PvP class balance?
• If there is an imbalance what is the best way to achieve the right balance?

Equivalent Exchange

Interwoven in every game, and in reality itself, is the concept of equivalent exchange. It's easy enough to understand. You don't get something for nothing, you gotta pay for it in some way. You have to give something to get something in return, etc. Arcane Legends is no exception. If you want a particular pet for your character you have to pay for it, either through plat, gold, opening locked crates, farming, spending time begging, etc. Getting from level 40 to 41 means working through 10 levels worth of experience.

When considering the ideal PvP class balance it's important to apply equivalent exchange because if you don't you automatically create a situation where one class reaps the benefits that another class should receive. Iow, one class ends up paying for another class' benefits. Balance is a synonym for equivalent exchange.

Measure of Success

PvP is a zero sum game, making it easy to measure overall balance by comparing the kill per death ratio (KDR) of each class. The total number of all kills is always equal to the total number of all deaths. There are other ways to measure PvP success like peer recognition, flags, games won, assisted kills, etc, but that's not where the 'real money' is.

Ideal Balance

If Arcane Legends had only one class it would take 100% of kills and 100% of deaths. If arcane legends had only two classes and they were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 50% of kills and 50% of deaths. Arcane Legends has three classes. If the three classes were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 33.33% of kills and 33.33% of deaths.

Thankfully, the three classes are not equal since that would be boring and pointless. Each class has a strength which it (supposedly) pays for by its weakness.

IMHO, this is what class balance should look like with three classes:

Ideal Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent
Rogue	Highest	38.33%	Highest	38.33%
Sorcerer	Average	33.33%	Average	33.33%
Warrior	Lowest	28.33%	Lowest	28.33%

• Class KDR should ALWAYS be 1:1.
• Equivalent exchange occurs:
  
  • Rogues pay for 5% more kills with 5% more deaths
  • Sorcerers stay average
  • Warriors pay for 5% fewer deaths with 5% fewer kills
  
  
• No more than 10% variance between highest and lowest total number of kills and deaths. Too much variance means PvP becomes boring, unnatural, and prone to excessive dramazzzzz.
• A better than average KDR actually means something!
• Individual players are more challenged. They must now use skill, superior gear, better team coordination, etc, rather than rely on inequity.

Not Pretty

Now that we know what class balance should be, what is it actually like right now?

I looked at the CTF and TDM leaderboards earlier today and did ye olde manual data entry into a spreadsheet. First, the raw number of kills:

PvP Leaderboard CTF Kills
	Total	Percent
All	2,979,151	100.00%
Rogue	1,397,172	46.90%
Sorcerer	783,541	26.30%
Warrior	798,438	26.80%

PvP Leaderboard TDM Kills
	Total	Percent
All	1,843,232	100.00%
Rogue	898,673	48.76%
Sorcerer	519,434	28.18%
Warrior	425,125	23.06%

PvP Leaderboard Combined Kills
	Total	Percent
All	4,822,383	100.00%
Rogue	2,295,845	47.61%
Sorcerer	1,302,975	27.02%
Warrior	1,223,563	25.37%

The most remarkable stat is that the top 25 CTF sorcerers actually have fewer kills than the top 25 CTF warriors. o.0
The second most noteworthy stat is Rogues basically take half of all kills in PvP.

So what IS the the class balance right now?? WELLLL... We don't know the number of deaths for each of the leaderboard players (Hey Devs, how about a quick SQL script and u can post the results here? Plssssss!). I could painstakingly poll in game each player on the leaderboard.... uh, on second thought, no.

However, we can make an educated guess because we know a few facts:

• The deaths distribution will somewhat reflect the the kills distribution, i.e. because the kills are not balanced deaths are unlikely to be balanced.
• There is almost uniform agreement from every PvP player that mages receive the most number of deaths.

I think this is the most likely scenario:

Current Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent*
		100.00%		100.00%
Rogue	Highest	47.61%	Higher	37.00%
Sorcerer	Lower	27.02%	Highest	40.00%
Warrior	Lowest	25.37%	Lowest	23.00%

*guestimate

And again:

Ideal Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent
Rogue	Highest	38.33%	Highest	38.33%
Sorcerer	Average	33.33%	Average	33.33%
Warrior	Lowest	28.33%	Lowest	28.33%

The Kicker

Class Imbalance
	Kills	%Error	Deaths	%Error
Rogue	inflated	9.27%	deflated	1.33%
Sorcerer	deflated	6.31%	inflated	6.67%
Warrior	deflated	2.96%	deflated	5.33%

Assuming assumptions are correct, we now know:

• Rogue kills are inflated by 9.27%
• Rogue deaths are deflated by 1.33%
• Sorcerer kills are deflated by 6.31%
• Sorcerer deaths are inflated by 6.67%
• Warrior kills are deflated by 2.96%
• Warrior deaths are deflated by 5.33%

The Road Somewhat Less Traveled

It's really up to STS to investigate this matter further. They have all the information that could truly shed light on the current state of class balance. Individual class KDR should be 1:1 and if it isn't there's an imbalance problem. I'm 99.9% confident that there is a clear anti-mage/pro-rogue/pro-warrior bias in the current class balance scheme.

Everyone has their opinion on how to fix the imbalance, but as Remiem pointed out in chatbox, developers rightly fear the bane of unintended consequences. Looking at the current imbalance scheme it's difficult to tease out exactly which button(s) to press to correct the imbalance. Even if the developers find the right button, pushing it might cause an uproar. Best intentions and all that lol. That being said...

REMEMBER PvP started being awful for Sorcerers when stun immunity was introduced. Pets made it even worse for sorcerers. Then it became clear Rogues did too much damage and Warriors did too little so they were nerfed/buffed. It feels like developers thought the matter had been laid to rest, but now that is much less certain.

My suggestion on how to fix the imbalance? From a PR perspective it's better to buff than to nerf so a sorcerer buff of some kind seems the best option, all things considered.

The leaderboards are pretty fine IMO. The rogues are meant to be the damage dealing class, so its only natural they get the most amount of kills.

They also die a fair bit, btw. One of the best rogues I know has ~20k deaths (if I remember right) and is #1 on the LB, so...

[Kingofninjas]

Warriors
No changes required, except maybe adjust (reduce) the curse rate on bulwark.

Mages
Personally, I think this talk about about being 1 combo breaking their shield and killing them is not true, except maybe if a ring rouge attacks. But then if we are going to compare a ring rogue, we should compare to a ring mage. In this scenario, I am pretty sure the ring rogue would not be able to 1 hit through the shield. That being said, mages are still definately too fragile. Once the shield drops, it is rare for a mage to survive if there is still a rouge alive. My solution would be to increase armour AND strength by 20%, and maybe provide a 1.5 second damage immunity once shield drops, giving them time to charge a counter attack and protecting them from being killed by an uncharged combo.

Rogues
No complaints here.

All in all, I think the HP and armour really need to be balanced with the damage so end game clashes do not remain a race to which rouge can 1 hit the other first or an endless spamming of samaels and praying that you do not get stunned yourself.

[raw]

Okay so class balance...

I think there are 2/3 issues that are really adding to this, but aren't necessary class specific.

1- Damage. If we look at how damage has progressed compared to armor and health, it becomes obvious that it's not the same. Just as an example:

L26 Rogue:
Armor - 900
Health - 2700
Damage - 300

L41 Rogie:
Armor - 1400
Health - 3500
Damage - 600

Double the damage should mean that armor, and health double...
Hopefully with the introduction of new amulets this will help bridge the gap between armor/health and damage.

2- Skills. For the past few months we've been expecting an update to the skill system, but that still hasn't come. I'm not here to put STG down, but rather to point out and suggest some improvements. My first room for improvement would be to add a 5th skill slot. Here are the implications of that with respect to each class:

Warriors with a 5th slot would be sort of OP because they'd be able to use 2 attacks, vb, jugg, and heal, however this is necessary in a situation such as pvp for the warrior to survive (jugg), and provide mana to his team (vb).
Mages with a 5th slot would be more adaptable. Currently mages specs vary tremendously depending on the situation (clash, rogue 1v1, tank 1v1, etc), requiring mages to have to spec 6 skills, and swap between them constantly.
Rogues with a 5th slot would be able to spec razor, sss, traps, veil or whatever they choose.

As far as a 5th slot goes, rogues would benefit the least, but overall i think it would make pvp better IF the damage to health/armor ratio is improved. Else, this 5th slot would make the damage problem worse.

3- Skill CD. As we all know there are many skills that have nearly no CD (ie. lightening, aimed shot). In an effort to balance this damage rogues and mages need to have more cooldowns on skills.

Rogues - Aimed shot is the highest damage skill in the entire game and the cooldown is what 3 seconds? A rogue should have to choose wisely when he/she wants to use this OP skill-- making it sort of a rogue's "special attack."
Mages - I'm not 100% about this but if I'm not mistaken mage attacks (fire, ice, light) have nearly no CD and can be fired almost simultaneously. This needs to be fixed IMO
Warriors - I think your skills are quite balanced in terms of CD.

(I will add more on class balance later. Feel free to comment)!

[Sir Lubo Penev]

Rogues - Aimed shot is the highest damage skill in the entire game and the cooldown is what 3 seconds? A rogue should have to choose wisely when he/she wants to use this OP skill-- making it sort of a rogue's "special attack."

Increase aimed shoot cooldown and congratulations - you've created a brand new junk class for both pvp AND pve.

Overall, I think balance will be just fine, if and when new armor/rings are implemented. Right now I am more concerned with the ridiculous disbalance (and therefore frustration and lack of fun) certain gear and pets create, than I am with skills, cooldowns and stuff like that.

Regards.

[inkredible]

Okay so class balance...

I think there are 2/3 issues that are really adding to this, but aren't necessary class specific.

1- Damage. If we look at how damage has progressed compared to armor and health, it becomes obvious that it's not the same. Just as an example:

L26 Rogue:
Armor - 900
Health - 2700
Damage - 300

L41 Rogie:
Armor - 1400
Health - 3500
Damage - 600

Double the damage should mean that armor, and health double...
Hopefully with the introduction of new amulets this will help bridge the gap between armor/health and damage.

no because damage get multiplied.. so i wouldnt look at it that way.. if u double the damage then it will be too much for all classes to handle

[Khicho]

There has been a lot of great feedback! I a very simple change that pretty much balance all classes. Add a 5th skill.

[LibertyBells (Jasper)]

Everyone's basically said what needed to be said:

Sorcerer - Sorcerer's main problem in the battle field comes from dying to easily if not prepared from any class. This doesn't apply with other sorcerers. My question is, why has our armor been reduced so low? Why can't we have the same armor as rouges? Or a little bit under. And the skill in Lifegiver, giving it the ability to receive low amounts of hp every second. I believe boosting this up would make our heal move a little bit better. The only skill i believe needs a look over would be Arcane Shield and Curse. Sorcerers shield last for .27 seconds against an ever relentless crit rouge. In my eyes, if our skills had a pvp/pve aspect written into each and every skill in the game, possibly with a little difference here and there, would solve a lot of problem.

*Example - Ice - Pve: Jagged Ice - Enemies that are either slowed or stunned by Frost Bolt also receive low amounts of additional damage over time, for the duration of the effect. Pvp: Enemies who receive damage over time also have a chance to decrease critical chance by 5%. Stackable up to 3 times.

Rouges - The idea of rouges having more crit and dodge was a good idea, but makes them a terminator in pvp. The only way i can kill them is if they aren't using healing packs or my slag gets one of its 1 out of 100 panics. *Everyone says slags panic is awesome but i rarely get it. What am i missing here? No rouge player wants to see rouges get nerfed for the simple fact that they wont be able to 1 combo anyone. Having a longer cool-down for Aimed shot wouldn't make the class boring to use, it would make it a challenge. Rouges can tap skill buttons with their toes and still be able to kill. I find that to be a problem.

Warriors - I've noticed that warriors are starting to hit me for crazy numbers. I don't know if its the Bulwark's curse or I just down right suck, but the stun i get from the Sky Smash(I think), last for eons! I don't know what can be done with warriors.. Possibly nothing? And just make it to where warriors and sorcerers can have a balanced match without me having to use 3 attack skills, then switch over to another skills.


*Sorcerers are probably the hardest character to use unless you either have the best skills in the universe, or you have the whole mythic gun/Kershal, arcane ring, Sns/Samael/Singe set up.

[Ubernewber]

i was thinking maybe 2% automatic bonus damage added every level (not including putting in points) then .5%-1% past level 30 for Mages, this would help them at not just endgame but also at lower levels

[Arcane Maniac]

I think rogues are underpowered in ctf since warriors can stun lock,elondrian gun mages easily kill us with stunning pet,so I think u should increase rogue dodge chance in ctf,and get their dmg back to normal,thanks!

[Dex Scene]

Rogues and warriors are just fine. Buff mage's armor though.

Warriors can chase/race with SKYWARD SMASH
Rogues can do it with PIERCE.
Both are good skills to use.
Mages have Gale force to do that which is basically no dmg dealer in PVP and hense occupied a useless skill slot.

Curse should be buffed.

I play both warrior and rogue twinks. Its been ages I stopped playing mages in pvp to actually dominate an arena!

Nb: rogue's medic is too op

[Im back dudes]

you want balance?
take away that stupid bulwark curse. there was no tension of adding it there anyways. its a pve weopon for a reason now its a pvp god weopon.
and add armor to mages.
idc what a warrior or rogue say. play a mage and you'll feel the pain.

[Zeus]

Sorcerers:
- Vastly Increased Heal
- Shield should grant stun immunity & a slight armor buff. I would suggest a 25% armor bonus when utilizing shield.
- If not willing to grant shield an armor buff, increase the damage that shield can take by 1-2k more damage. Sometimes, all a sorcerer needs is 1-2 more seconds to kill a class. This can provide that easily!
Warriors:
- Their skills are fine, they do not need a greater buff.
- In light of new buffs to rogues or sorcerers, some sort of enhanced survivability buff should be given. I am not suggesting anything TOO powerful, but just enough to keep them competitive.

Rogues:
- Their skills are also fine, they do not need a buff or a nerf.
- Pet damage boost should be fixed for this class. It is not granting the damage boost of any pet, making a lot of pet happiness features unable to be used.

These suggestions are suggested under the assumption that most of them will be implemented. Otherwise, the logic ladder falls apart.

[uunknownn]

Sorcerers:
- Vastly Increased Heal
- Shield should grant stun immunity & a slight armor buff. I would suggest a 25% armor bonus when utilizing shield.
- If not willing to grant shield an armor buff, increase the damage that shield can take by 1-2k more damage. Sometimes, all a sorcerer needs is 1-2 more seconds to kill a class. This can provide that easily!
Warriors:
- Their skills are fine, they do not need a greater buff.
- In light of new buffs to rogues or sorcerers, some sort of enhanced survivability buff should be given. I am not suggesting anything TOO powerful, but just enough to keep them competitive.

Rogues:
- Their skills are also fine, they do not need a buff or a nerf.
- Pet damage boost should be fixed for this class. It is not granting the damage boost of any pet, making a lot of pet happiness features unable to be used.

These suggestions are suggested under the assumption that most of them will be implemented. Otherwise, the logic ladder falls apart.

Best idea please sts take a look at this.classes are not meant to be balance at 1vs1 but i do agree mages need buff and here it is as what zeus said and sts pls fix our dmg nerf in dmg % pets we spent lots of golds for arcane pets like hj,sam etc.just be useless their dmg % boost??;(

[Kreasadriii]

Sorcerers:
- Vastly Increased Heal
- Shield should grant stun immunity & a slight armor buff. I would suggest a 25% armor bonus when utilizing shield.
- If not willing to grant shield an armor buff, increase the damage that shield can take by 1-2k more damage. Sometimes, all a sorcerer needs is 1-2 more seconds to kill a class. This can provide that easily!
Warriors:
- Their skills are fine, they do not need a greater buff.
- In light of new buffs to rogues or sorcerers, some sort of enhanced survivability buff should be given. I am not suggesting anything TOO powerful, but just enough to keep them competitive.

Rogues:
- Their skills are also fine, they do not need a buff or a nerf.
- Pet damage boost should be fixed for this class. It is not granting the damage boost of any pet, making a lot of pet happiness features unable to be used.

These suggestions are suggested under the assumption that most of them will be implemented. Otherwise, the logic ladder falls apart.

What I bold is I really really like it.
Yes, what must mage do when use shield than get a long stunt -_-
And the shield? is was 2 secs invulnerable, after 2 secs. 1 aimed critical could break the shield or bosses like abomination will hit mage easily.

I hope this supposed mean as competitive that warrior can also participate on timed run too. Give them space.

[Xpolosion]

Sorcerers:
- Vastly Increased Heal
- Shield should grant stun immunity & a slight armor buff. I would suggest a 25% armor bonus when utilizing shield.
- If not willing to grant shield an armor buff, increase the damage that shield can take by 1-2k more damage. Sometimes, all a sorcerer needs is 1-2 more seconds to kill a class. This can provide that easily!
Warriors:
- Their skills are fine, they do not need a greater buff.
- In light of new buffs to rogues or sorcerers, some sort of enhanced survivability buff should be given. I am not suggesting anything TOO powerful, but just enough to keep them competitive.

Rogues:
- Their skills are also fine, they do not need a buff or a nerf.
- Pet damage boost should be fixed for this class. It is not granting the damage boost of any pet, making a lot of pet happiness features unable to be used.

These suggestions are suggested under the assumption that most of them will be implemented. Otherwise, the logic ladder falls apart.

I agree 100 with zeus here. I think armor buff and stun immunity would be perfect. I also think making Bulwarks curse a rare proc would be great as well.