Let's Talk About Class Balance!

[Remiem]

I've been seeing a lot of talk lately about class balance in Arcane Legends. Mostly about our favorite little blue dudes, the Sorcerers, but I'd love to gauge everyone's response to class balance in general so that I have clear suggestions to send back to the devs.

So! Let's discuss.

Please comment below with your feedback and suggestions on how we might improve class balance. And, let's keep in mind that BALANCE is the key word here. I know that everyone wants to be able to just own everyone in PvP, but that's not what balance is about. Each class should have their own strengths and weaknesses, and not feel either over or under powered.

Also, I know this is a hot topic and people can get fired up over something they are so passionate about. Please keep this discussion friendly, constructive and straight forward. This isn't the place to bash the game, other players or STS. This is the place for discussion about how we can make the game more fun for everyone.

Ready, set go!

[Niixed]

In a class balance discussion, there are a number of questions that, imo, get to the heart of the matter.

• How do we measure PvP class balance?
• What is the ideal PvP class balance?
• What is the current PvP class balance?
• If there is an imbalance what is the best way to achieve the right balance?

Equivalent Exchange

Interwoven in every game, and in reality itself, is the concept of equivalent exchange. It's easy enough to understand. You don't get something for nothing, you gotta pay for it in some way. You have to give something to get something in return, etc. Arcane Legends is no exception. If you want a particular pet for your character you have to pay for it, either through plat, gold, opening locked crates, farming, spending time begging, etc. Getting from level 40 to 41 means working through 10 levels worth of experience.

When considering the ideal PvP class balance it's important to apply equivalent exchange because if you don't you automatically create a situation where one class reaps the benefits that another class should receive. Iow, one class ends up paying for another class' benefits. Balance is a synonym for equivalent exchange.

Measure of Success

PvP is a zero sum game, making it easy to measure overall balance by comparing the kill per death ratio (KDR) of each class. The total number of all kills is always equal to the total number of all deaths. There are other ways to measure PvP success like peer recognition, flags, games won, assisted kills, etc, but that's not where the 'real money' is.

Ideal Balance

If Arcane Legends had only one class it would take 100% of kills and 100% of deaths. If arcane legends had only two classes and they were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 50% of kills and 50% of deaths. Arcane Legends has three classes. If the three classes were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 33.33% of kills and 33.33% of deaths.

Thankfully, the three classes are not equal since that would be boring and pointless. Each class has a strength which it (supposedly) pays for by its weakness.

IMHO, this is what class balance should look like with three classes:

Ideal Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent
Rogue	Highest	38.33%	Highest	38.33%
Sorcerer	Average	33.33%	Average	33.33%
Warrior	Lowest	28.33%	Lowest	28.33%

• Class KDR should ALWAYS be 1:1.
• Equivalent exchange occurs:
  
  • Rogues pay for 5% more kills with 5% more deaths
  • Sorcerers stay average
  • Warriors pay for 5% fewer deaths with 5% fewer kills
  
  
• No more than 10% variance between highest and lowest total number of kills and deaths. Too much variance means PvP becomes boring, unnatural, and prone to excessive dramazzzzz.
• A better than average KDR actually means something!
• Individual players are more challenged. They must now use skill, superior gear, better team coordination, etc, rather than rely on inequity.

Not Pretty

Now that we know what class balance should be, what is it actually like right now?

I looked at the CTF and TDM leaderboards earlier today and did ye olde manual data entry into a spreadsheet. First, the raw number of kills:

PvP Leaderboard CTF Kills
	Total	Percent
All	2,979,151	100.00%
Rogue	1,397,172	46.90%
Sorcerer	783,541	26.30%
Warrior	798,438	26.80%

PvP Leaderboard TDM Kills
	Total	Percent
All	1,843,232	100.00%
Rogue	898,673	48.76%
Sorcerer	519,434	28.18%
Warrior	425,125	23.06%

PvP Leaderboard Combined Kills
	Total	Percent
All	4,822,383	100.00%
Rogue	2,295,845	47.61%
Sorcerer	1,302,975	27.02%
Warrior	1,223,563	25.37%

The most remarkable stat is that the top 25 CTF sorcerers actually have fewer kills than the top 25 CTF warriors. o.0
The second most noteworthy stat is Rogues basically take half of all kills in PvP.

So what IS the the class balance right now?? WELLLL... We don't know the number of deaths for each of the leaderboard players (Hey Devs, how about a quick SQL script and u can post the results here? Plssssss!). I could painstakingly poll in game each player on the leaderboard.... uh, on second thought, no.

However, we can make an educated guess because we know a few facts:

• The deaths distribution will somewhat reflect the the kills distribution, i.e. because the kills are not balanced deaths are unlikely to be balanced.
• There is almost uniform agreement from every PvP player that mages receive the most number of deaths.

I think this is the most likely scenario:

Current Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent*
		100.00%		100.00%
Rogue	Highest	47.61%	Higher	37.00%
Sorcerer	Lower	27.02%	Highest	40.00%
Warrior	Lowest	25.37%	Lowest	23.00%

*guestimate

And again:

Ideal Class Balance
	Kills	Percent	Deaths	Percent
Rogue	Highest	38.33%	Highest	38.33%
Sorcerer	Average	33.33%	Average	33.33%
Warrior	Lowest	28.33%	Lowest	28.33%

The Kicker

Class Imbalance
	Kills	%Error	Deaths	%Error
Rogue	inflated	9.27%	deflated	1.33%
Sorcerer	deflated	6.31%	inflated	6.67%
Warrior	deflated	2.96%	deflated	5.33%

Assuming assumptions are correct, we now know:

• Rogue kills are inflated by 9.27%
• Rogue deaths are deflated by 1.33%
• Sorcerer kills are deflated by 6.31%
• Sorcerer deaths are inflated by 6.67%
• Warrior kills are deflated by 2.96%
• Warrior deaths are deflated by 5.33%

The Road Somewhat Less Traveled

It's really up to STS to investigate this matter further. They have all the information that could truly shed light on the current state of class balance. Individual class KDR should be 1:1 and if it isn't there's an imbalance problem. I'm 99.9% confident that there is a clear anti-mage/pro-rogue/pro-warrior bias in the current class balance scheme.

Everyone has their opinion on how to fix the imbalance, but as Remiem pointed out in chatbox, developers rightly fear the bane of unintended consequences. Looking at the current imbalance scheme it's difficult to tease out exactly which button(s) to press to correct the imbalance. Even if the developers find the right button, pushing it might cause an uproar. Best intentions and all that lol. That being said...

REMEMBER PvP started being awful for Sorcerers when stun immunity was introduced. Pets made it even worse for sorcerers. Then it became clear Rogues did too much damage and Warriors did too little so they were nerfed/buffed. It feels like developers thought the matter had been laid to rest, but now that is much less certain.

My suggestion on how to fix the imbalance? From a PR perspective it's better to buff than to nerf so a sorcerer buff of some kind seems the best option, all things considered.

[raw]

Okay so class balance...

I think there are 2/3 issues that are really adding to this, but aren't necessary class specific.

1- Damage. If we look at how damage has progressed compared to armor and health, it becomes obvious that it's not the same. Just as an example:

L26 Rogue:
Armor - 900
Health - 2700
Damage - 300

L41 Rogie:
Armor - 1400
Health - 3500
Damage - 600

Double the damage should mean that armor, and health double...
Hopefully with the introduction of new amulets this will help bridge the gap between armor/health and damage.

2- Skills. For the past few months we've been expecting an update to the skill system, but that still hasn't come. I'm not here to put STG down, but rather to point out and suggest some improvements. My first room for improvement would be to add a 5th skill slot. Here are the implications of that with respect to each class:

Warriors with a 5th slot would be sort of OP because they'd be able to use 2 attacks, vb, jugg, and heal, however this is necessary in a situation such as pvp for the warrior to survive (jugg), and provide mana to his team (vb).
Mages with a 5th slot would be more adaptable. Currently mages specs vary tremendously depending on the situation (clash, rogue 1v1, tank 1v1, etc), requiring mages to have to spec 6 skills, and swap between them constantly.
Rogues with a 5th slot would be able to spec razor, sss, traps, veil or whatever they choose.

As far as a 5th slot goes, rogues would benefit the least, but overall i think it would make pvp better IF the damage to health/armor ratio is improved. Else, this 5th slot would make the damage problem worse.

3- Skill CD. As we all know there are many skills that have nearly no CD (ie. lightening, aimed shot). In an effort to balance this damage rogues and mages need to have more cooldowns on skills.

Rogues - Aimed shot is the highest damage skill in the entire game and the cooldown is what 3 seconds? A rogue should have to choose wisely when he/she wants to use this OP skill-- making it sort of a rogue's "special attack."
Mages - I'm not 100% about this but if I'm not mistaken mage attacks (fire, ice, light) have nearly no CD and can be fired almost simultaneously. This needs to be fixed IMO
Warriors - I think your skills are quite balanced in terms of CD.

(I will add more on class balance later. Feel free to comment)!

[Arcane Maniac]

I think rogues are underpowered in ctf since warriors can stun lock,elondrian gun mages easily kill us with stunning pet,so I think u should increase rogue dodge chance in ctf,and get their dmg back to normal,thanks!

[Dex Scene]

Rogues and warriors are just fine. Buff mage's armor though.

Warriors can chase/race with SKYWARD SMASH
Rogues can do it with PIERCE.
Both are good skills to use.
Mages have Gale force to do that which is basically no dmg dealer in PVP and hense occupied a useless skill slot.

Curse should be buffed.

I play both warrior and rogue twinks. Its been ages I stopped playing mages in pvp to actually dominate an arena!

Nb: rogue's medic is too op

[Im back dudes]

you want balance?
take away that stupid bulwark curse. there was no tension of adding it there anyways. its a pve weopon for a reason now its a pvp god weopon.
and add armor to mages.
idc what a warrior or rogue say. play a mage and you'll feel the pain.

[Sir Lubo Penev]

Rogues - Aimed shot is the highest damage skill in the entire game and the cooldown is what 3 seconds? A rogue should have to choose wisely when he/she wants to use this OP skill-- making it sort of a rogue's "special attack."

Increase aimed shoot cooldown and congratulations - you've created a brand new junk class for both pvp AND pve.

Overall, I think balance will be just fine, if and when new armor/rings are implemented. Right now I am more concerned with the ridiculous disbalance (and therefore frustration and lack of fun) certain gear and pets create, than I am with skills, cooldowns and stuff like that.

Regards.

[Zeus]

Sorcerers:
- Vastly Increased Heal
- Shield should grant stun immunity & a slight armor buff. I would suggest a 25% armor bonus when utilizing shield.
- If not willing to grant shield an armor buff, increase the damage that shield can take by 1-2k more damage. Sometimes, all a sorcerer needs is 1-2 more seconds to kill a class. This can provide that easily!
Warriors:
- Their skills are fine, they do not need a greater buff.
- In light of new buffs to rogues or sorcerers, some sort of enhanced survivability buff should be given. I am not suggesting anything TOO powerful, but just enough to keep them competitive.

Rogues:
- Their skills are also fine, they do not need a buff or a nerf.
- Pet damage boost should be fixed for this class. It is not granting the damage boost of any pet, making a lot of pet happiness features unable to be used.

These suggestions are suggested under the assumption that most of them will be implemented. Otherwise, the logic ladder falls apart.

[FluffNStuff]

How to balance the classes in 1v1 PvP with the current code: Not well.
Why?
The current classes are built with different focuses then each other, for example, Rogue/Sorc:
Rogue is designed for 1v1 damage. Sorc is designed for 1vMany damage. In the current code, improving a Sorc enough to give it the power of a Rogue in 1v1 would make it insanely OP 1vMany in PvE.
How can this be balanced?
Currently, it appears the code can only adjust a few variables when a player enters the PvP arena, specifically Armor/Damage/Health.
What is needed is for the code to be able to adjust ... well ... everything. An example could be the Sorc Fireball. Sorc enters PvP the damage on the fireball goes UP, but, the AOE radius drops to zero. That is just an example, there are many others that could be discussed, but that is step two. Step one is the ability for the game to dynamically change the behavior/damage on skills in a PvP environment.

[Instanthumor]

For mage:

Lifegiver should heal set percentage of hp/mana. It heals ~70% on mages, and ~15% on warriors and I lol
Shield - take out pushback upgrade. Not even newbs use that. Insert something in for example reflect dmg
Give mages +25-30% str bonus in pvp, increase armor value on gear such as mythic set, druids, magma, etc.
Buff mage's shield. It is not right for a rogue to use ONE combo and automatically break shield. Make it absorb more dmg or last the whole 15 seconds it's supposed to.

[aarrgggggg]

You wanna balance pvp

Lower the shield cooldown for mages so the cooldown is shorter and remove the knockback upgrade on shield.....
replace knockback upgrade with either an armor boost, a stun immunity or a reflecting damage upgrade instead, maybe a combination of those.

Also buff mages heal skill because it is currently too weak. making adjustments to these two skills, shield and heal should balance
the little blue smurfs much better.


Also a nerf to slag and samael is needed.....those pets terrify should not stack and should grant some kind of immunity similar to stun immunity, currently they dont so its possible to be completely stunlocked indefinitely.

You cannot even twink anymore without running into loads of samaels to indefinitely stun you.

The gap between legendary and myth/ arcane users is too big especially when it comes to pets, making pvp at all levels not just end game enjoyable for only the most wealthy individuals.

make a 1v1 room

Would it be possible to make a pvp filter so that arcane users enter pvp rooms with other arcane users and legendary users enter rooms with other legendary users....... this will balance pvp out for sure.

mages....more than any other class need a fifth skill slot

will add more later

[Stoba]

I would suggest decreasing shield cd.

[Bless]

Right now its

Damage > Armor and hp

It should be -

HP & ARMOR >= DAMAGE whilst still maintaining adaquately high damage of critical hits.

For all classes. Yall need to buff our gear/new gear. Or the stats somehow.

[Idly]

Mages,
Pvp only +20%-30% health buff
Reduced shield cd
Stun immunity
Buff either curse or make light crits stack

Tank,
Only the bulwark is an issue imo. Let them keep the curse so its still a viable pvp weapon but reduce the proc rate drastically to maybe 15%

Rogue,

No comments

5th skill slot would be awesome for all classes, maybe make it a player choice to have 5 skills OR 4 skills and normal attack so a five skill pvp'er would lose his/her weapons procurement.

[aquascaper]

Thanks!

[will0]

Mage shield with lower CD increase invulnerability duration as many mages have suggested this also increase damage absorption so it wont break so easily with rogues high damage one-shot / mage shield knockback should be remove and give reflect damage as per instanthumor suggestion above.

Charge heals gives castor 100% heal and maybe 50% to allies, heals should also come in some sort of armor boost or protection to caster or allies like warrior's horn.

un-nerf ice root in PVP, warrior can pull mage with a skill and they jugg we are dead. Rouges shoot mage 1 hit combo in a distance range we are dead. Why our ice skill can't root in pvp ? Please increase the DOT damage on ice too.

lightning skill - please change the critical % and AOE % (AOE doesnt work on normal map since most mobs have big health point ie, shuyal / tindrin maps) so lightning AOE is useless skill for PVE.

Give Elon Gun charge skill 100% root with longer duration with poison or bleed, Bulwark get 100% curse on charge (why the discrepancy?)

Kershal - overall is not a good weapon anyway just user a nice stats too many flaws doesn't stun and slow dont work. Charge damage does nothing.

[Kakashis]

Warriors need to deal way more damage when they crit. Right now, they're sitting ducks and can't damage faster than a rogue can drop packs to heal. In essence rogues are still the deadliest class

[Instanthumor]

How to balance the classes in 1v1 PvP with the current code: Not well.
Why?
The current classes are built with different focuses then each other, for example, Rogue/Sorc:
Rogue is designed for 1v1 damage. Sorc is designed for 1vMany damage. In the current code, improving a Sorc enough to give it the power of a Rogue in 1v1 would make it insanely OP 1vMany in PvE.
How can this be balanced?
Currently, it appears the code can only adjust a few variables when a player enters the PvP arena, specifically Armor/Damage/Health.
What is needed is for the code to be able to adjust ... well ... everything. An example could be the Sorc Fireball. Sorc enters PvP the damage on the fireball goes UP, but, the AOE radius drops to zero. That is just an example, there are many others that could be discussed, but that is step two. Step one is the ability for the game to dynamically change the behavior/damage on skills in a PvP environment.

I disagree, I think all classes should be somewhat balanced in terms of 1v1.

Bulwark's Curse should be replaced with something OTHER than a mage's skill.

[inkredible]

also. fix rogue buff in tdm .

[inkredible]

Okay so class balance...

I think there are 2/3 issues that are really adding to this, but aren't necessary class specific.

1- Damage. If we look at how damage has progressed compared to armor and health, it becomes obvious that it's not the same. Just as an example:

L26 Rogue:
Armor - 900
Health - 2700
Damage - 300

L41 Rogie:
Armor - 1400
Health - 3500
Damage - 600

Double the damage should mean that armor, and health double...
Hopefully with the introduction of new amulets this will help bridge the gap between armor/health and damage.

no because damage get multiplied.. so i wouldnt look at it that way.. if u double the damage then it will be too much for all classes to handle