Let's Talk About Class Balance!

[Bigboyblue]

Mages :

-add stun immunity to shield instead of knockback
-increase damage done to warriors(only warriors) by 15%(do people think this is a good amount?)

Rogues

-apply 20% damage reduction in TDM
-apply pet damage % increase in CTF

Warriors
-no changes needed


I don't think any other changes are required. We could tweak the skills of all classes but it just opens the door for more issues. As we have seen in the past adding anything to any item or skill can have serious implications(Bulwark anyone?). Mages shield could be something that if changed could help but would it upset the current balance between rogues and mages?

I saw Zeus recommend some changes, and I know he is a strong proponent of buffing mages which I am glad to see. I also see quite a bit of support for his comment but I can't agree to any survivability buff to warriors. His other recommendations are solid but mages will still have a hard time killing warriors, give them any buff(even minor) and it's impossible. Also without some sort of increase to our damage against warriors we are in the same boat. We don't want to create any situations where the mage and warrior fight doesn't end or it required one of the toons to be OOM for the other to win.

If there is a current unbalance between rogues and warriors maybe make jugg prevent the crit stacking effect of aimed? I thought this match up was currently fairly equal but I am not totally sure on this. If you give any sort of improvement to warriors or rogues that affects the match up vs mages then we are in the same boat we are currently.


There is also a bit of an issue with clashes. The team with the most warriors on it usually wins(given equal skill and gear). HoR is a life saver and with 2 or 3 warriors blasting this off you almost can't die(even as a mage). Maybe something similar to stun immunity needs to be added to the effect of HoR? A 4 second duration from the end of HoR until you can receive the buff again? Not sure how long it should be but this could help clashes.

[Higuani]

There is also a bit of an issue with clashes. The team with the most warriors on it usually wins(given equal skill and gear). HoR is a life saver and with 2 or 3 warriors blasting this off you almost can't die(even as a mage). Maybe something similar to stun immunity needs to be added to the effect of HoR? A 4 second duration from the end of HoR until you can receive the buff again? Not sure how long it should be but this could help clashes.

Not true! I beated a whole 5 warrior team with 4 rogues & 1 warrior.

1 warrior cant absorb all the dmg done by 4 rogues. 1 by 1 they fall to the ground. I'm playin 17 twink.

[freakoutt]

Ok so i have experienced mage using max gear (apart from pet) and can still say that mages absolutely suck! The extra 70 dmg i gain from arcane ring doesn't increase my dmg by that much at all?? One thing i noticed is that apparently. lightning does 1300-1600 dmg or something but i dont do that to any class apart from mage? And also on crit (250%) would mean i hit 3.2k to 4k crit but i cant even hit that on anyone apart from mage?

Heres my theory: dmg on skills is based on your armor compared to oppositions armor. This makes sense but im pretty sure it shouldnt be lie that? This alone would fix alot of problems.

Another issue is mages shield dropping almost as soon as invulnerability wears off... making mages squishy 97.5% of the time. i would sugget reassessing the upgrades etc.

Final problem is some of the actual skills that are useless BASED ON STS NERFS!! Ice no longer roots, fire no longer stuns often, and other skills like lightning with its useless AoE that happens once every 20000 times.. Mages need to be completely restructured from the base. This includes our actual dmg output, skill upgrades, nerfs, buffs etc. I dare you guys to come pvp anonymously and see how hard it is being everyone's target "just because". And I'm a lucky mage too.. i have friends that come and assist me in 5v5 while i watch as me and the other mages in the rooms are 100% stunlocked and are live bait for a rogue. ah well i doubt sts will actually buff mages. Hey STS next debuff suggestion for mages... oh wait you've already debuffed them to absolutely nothing...

[Khicho]

There has been a lot of great feedback! I a very simple change that pretty much balance all classes. Add a 5th skill.

[Niixed]

I think you did an awesome job here! I don't know how accurate the lb is for this though. With people dummy farming and getting thousands of kills this way the current lb is not a good judge of what each class can do IMO. Your ideal class balance chart is amazing though. Great work!

Your logic is sound, and even if the lbs weren't tampered with it would probably be a close match to your current numbers. It would just take the devs really diving in to figure it out.

You're exactly right that the lb numbers are not necessarily a great representation of what each class can do. But, what each class is doing says a lot as well. I think this is a winner-take-all situation. Rogues became dominant because players learned over time that for Rogues the kills were quicker/easier and the deaths were manageable. They learned mages were ok on kills but we're awful for deaths and warriors were decent on both. There are noticeably fewer mages in PvP because it's a miserable experience. Mage numbers are probably depressed because it sucks to play a mage. Many skilled pros don't bother spending the time/effort when there are better options.

[conradev]

I only skimmed through page 1 but I agree with some of what Zeus said and some of what Instanthumor said.

Quick fix answers: Remove the Bulwark curse, Remove Razor Shield Stun immunity. Both are absolutey BLUNDEROUS decisions.

Like I've been wailing on and on about...everytime a change is made it seems like the tables turn on a class and sometimes topple over. It's up to us players to re-evolve our game based on game changes...and I tell you, it gets harder every time. We were at most balance before you added cooldowns to skills, why? Because mage could utilitze his shield then switch it to heal, thus being able to fight 3 damage skills with a tank and be able to heal himself so he didn't die in literally 2 seconds on a bs stun combo with damage coming from the tank at ROGUE levels.

When there was no skill cooldowns before you could switch, clashes didnt revolve around mages running from spawn back to clash center dying immediately and repeating. Now either remove all updates since end of season 5 or....


Summarized Answer: LEAVE S***ALONE!!!

[Zeus]

Razor Shield stun immunity is a given skill since S1. I would recommend that instead of wasting your stun immunity, gather distance between the Razor & save your fireball for the second the Razor shield ends.

Other sorcerers have used that and for me, it is quite effective.

[conradev]

Like seriously...when I saw you say that you wete going to see about getting some of the current glitches and buffs addressed before the tournament I knew it was going to be like, LMAO bad. Please stop updating so frequently, stop making changes to the game mechanics based on what ppl say on the forum..THEREIN is the real problem---listening TOO much to players. A very nice business but it's a rabbit hole it appears likr for this game.

[conradev]

Zeus, I have already been doing that with a measure of success. And I have to believe that not even you think that adding that extra time to your stun immunity is at all fair in PVP...which is what this discussion is about, not PVE.

[octavos]

Alrighty ill post, might not be as straight forward..but it will say my point of view. After all its your game..so ill just go with the flow.

1. Mages die to much, and need something to counter that..in Elite and arena..and the new arena...and unlike PL..where mages have revives..mages in AL...are a bitter sweet class.

2. rouges are the class for pvp and elite, they can 1 hit kill and deal nice dmg in elite... and thats all pvp/elite is about now a days. When do you see a mage or a tank "warrior" doing a 1 shot kill in pvp?!?! or able to solo elite?!?! you wont..but if you do, give that person brownie points if they can do it on warrior or mage..because of how much time it takes.

3. warriors are supposed to be an agro machine..but since there health is high and dmg is low...why do you want to spend so much on pots for elite..since there dmg is compared to a mosquito bite...thats why many want to see a male rouge, because high dmg..and same amount of pots. Mages cant even compare to the dmg the rouges can do..even for normal taradin levels. Mages might be a AOE class but against important stuff like bosses in arena or elite, but wait they die to much....so tell me how thats a advantage..because I dont see it.

4. make an in-game study to find out..which class is preferred...whats the best for arena, whats the best timed runs, whats the best for boss runs in elite, I can guarantee you "rouges" will be the best suited..so if you want to balance?!?! make classes closer to rouge...just change out there skin..and boom..you have an even balance. But on a serious note..why is it that PL DL and SL are all balanced? and AL always is the unbalanced game....in all my time I have never seen so many balance changes to a game. even forums you won't see arguments of classes because many have been resolved.

[conradev]

Moving on...who here believes that reducing the cd time of shield and fireball incrementally would provide a moderate amount of balance for mages as well as what other alluded to, adding stun immunity to Arcane Shield and an armor buff?

Can we get the top 3 or 4 ideas and make a poll thread please?...this discussion is getting lengthy and further away from a clear resolution. We need a consensus thread with options.

[lethaljade]

MAGES SUCK. They are too squishy, its kinder boring that without a shield we just splat and die , vsing rouges is faily matched if you know what your doing, but this is on a fair 1v1 term, mages need more armour, we r a class that depends on one skill ..... shield , which is boring give us the same armour as rouges, so we have survivability otherwise gg mages , especially with this new bulwark, it was very difficult to kill a tank before now its just impossible, 700more armour plox. How fun would it be to vs a tank and actually have a fair chance at winning.

Its simple really those little blue smurfs need some sort of buff , preferably armour, and a shorter cool down on shield, we r way to squishy.

[conradev]

MAGES SUCK. They are too squishy, its kinder boring that without a shield we just splat and die , vsing rouges is faily matched if you know what your doing, but this is on a fair 1v1 term, mages need more armour, we r a class that depends on one skill ..... shield , which is boring give us the same armour as rouges, so we have survivability otherwise gg mages , especially with this new bulwark, it was very difficult to kill a tank before now its just impossible, 700more armour plox. How fun would it be to vs a tank and actually have a fair chance at winning.

Mages don't suck and I don't even like having a "fair" vs...I like playing David (id est David/Goliath) but in a world where new buffs arr granted and weapons are forged based entirely off of forum complaints like the Bulwark giving curse, the Elondrian rifle giving armor on fire, it seems futile to even keep up anymore. Nerf the gun and renerf the Bulwark.

[lethaljade]

Mages don't suck and I don't even like having a "fair" vs...I like playing David (id est David/Goliath) but in a world where new buffs arr granted and weapons are forged based entirely off of forum complaints like the Bulwark giving curse, the Elondrian rifle giving armor on fire, it seems futile to even keep up anymore. Nerf the gun and renerf the Bulwark.

I get what your saying con, but most people would like an equal chance at killing a tank which we have never had yes people like me u and id say 15 others enjoyed the challenge of vsing a tank b4 this bulwark, but it has never been fair, its always been a challenge on the mages part, which it shouldnt be , if were talking about class balance, weve never had any, we was at out closest before bulwark, but it still wasn't balanced, killing a tank shouldnt be something only "pro mages" can do id like to see it possible for every mage out there. And by that I mean it should be just as hard for the tank.

[Imthebeast]

To be completely honest i think stun and panic should happen less often and rogues shouldnt have razor. I use razor on my geared rogue and slaughter mages lol

[Thrindal]

This is a tough one because it's more than class it's gear too. My mythic rogue with legendary bows worst pvp nightmare are mages. That shield is near impenetrable for me. I'd rather see another Rogue or a warrior any day.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that class isn't the only part of the discussion.

[Imthebeast]

This is a tough one because it's more than class it's gear too. My mythic rogue with legendary bows worst pvp nightmare are mages. That shield is near impenetrable for me. I'd rather see another Rogue or a warrior any day.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that class isn't the only part of the discussion.

Well if ur using an expe bow the mage would equally use an expe gun. I personally on my rogue can kill any expe gun mage with expe bow and razor active.

[Higuani]

Mages Shield

- Reduce CD time shield
- When we have our shield up. I like my shield to protect me and not get destroyed after x amount of dmg.
- Grant stun immunity

Mages Heal

- Add an sort of HEAL barrier for x amount of seconds on us. Like HOR but then only for mages and not entire team. BUT make it penetrated only by crits.

My 2 cents.

[chorba69]

People were suggesting a lot past seasons, and nothing has really changed.
99% of the people on forums say mages are just underpowered and so were they always in PvP and nothing was done about that. They have almost no chances to kill an equally geared warrior, and cant survive more than 3secs without a shield vs a rogue.
STS, c'mon do something already. People are complaining and only thing you guys do is, sadly, nothing. Or even better, you continue to buff the already op warriors.
Idk do you guys play warriors only or you like the class or what? Spend a day with a mage in pvp and you will what I and community is talking about.
Cheers

[LibertyBells (Jasper)]

Everyone's basically said what needed to be said:

Sorcerer - Sorcerer's main problem in the battle field comes from dying to easily if not prepared from any class. This doesn't apply with other sorcerers. My question is, why has our armor been reduced so low? Why can't we have the same armor as rouges? Or a little bit under. And the skill in Lifegiver, giving it the ability to receive low amounts of hp every second. I believe boosting this up would make our heal move a little bit better. The only skill i believe needs a look over would be Arcane Shield and Curse. Sorcerers shield last for .27 seconds against an ever relentless crit rouge. In my eyes, if our skills had a pvp/pve aspect written into each and every skill in the game, possibly with a little difference here and there, would solve a lot of problem.

*Example - Ice - Pve: Jagged Ice - Enemies that are either slowed or stunned by Frost Bolt also receive low amounts of additional damage over time, for the duration of the effect. Pvp: Enemies who receive damage over time also have a chance to decrease critical chance by 5%. Stackable up to 3 times.

Rouges - The idea of rouges having more crit and dodge was a good idea, but makes them a terminator in pvp. The only way i can kill them is if they aren't using healing packs or my slag gets one of its 1 out of 100 panics. *Everyone says slags panic is awesome but i rarely get it. What am i missing here? No rouge player wants to see rouges get nerfed for the simple fact that they wont be able to 1 combo anyone. Having a longer cool-down for Aimed shot wouldn't make the class boring to use, it would make it a challenge. Rouges can tap skill buttons with their toes and still be able to kill. I find that to be a problem.

Warriors - I've noticed that warriors are starting to hit me for crazy numbers. I don't know if its the Bulwark's curse or I just down right suck, but the stun i get from the Sky Smash(I think), last for eons! I don't know what can be done with warriors.. Possibly nothing? And just make it to where warriors and sorcerers can have a balanced match without me having to use 3 attack skills, then switch over to another skills.


*Sorcerers are probably the hardest character to use unless you either have the best skills in the universe, or you have the whole mythic gun/Kershal, arcane ring, Sns/Samael/Singe set up.