Enchantress Debuffs

[Hraefn]

Can anyone offer a reason why Enchantress debuffs are less effective than their Warrior/Archer counterparts while having shorter range, higher mana cost and a longer cooldown?

Is it because they stack with the other debuffs? Otherwise, they seem mediocre by comparison.

The old descriptions stated that these debuffs had two components (e.g., Nightmare would debuff both target damage and armor). While this description may have been misleading, it made the debuffs seem worth training.

Right now, these skills seem like they need adjusting.

[Royce]

Yeah, I think they must have changed the mage debuffs quite a bit. A read a lot in the forum about how they are the one true way, and that the buffs can't compare to them. Though I wish their effects were a bit stronger, I find a lot to like about the buffs, and have been disappointed by the debuffs, Their range is ridiculously short (particularly nightmare, which I will switch out next respec). I would love to see some mage debuffs that act on an area, but not a simple circle around the enchantress. I am thinking more like a cone of effect radiating out from the caster. Something like that could cover the exact same amount of area as the current debuffs, but directionally, would be so much more useful.

[Jovians]

I cant say ive noticed much of a change. I havent tried this since the updated text. I know before my lev 28 supportress could easily solo mobs in the first 2 lev's of A.S. It would take awhile but it was done plenty of times (with the use of mana pots no health pots). Ill try it agian and see if they are weaker. I think they increased the distance with the last update to the text tho. Im not sure tho.

[Azrael]

Can anyone offer a reason why Enchantress debuffs are less effective than their Warrior/Archer counterparts while having shorter range, higher mana cost and a longer cooldown?

Is it because they stack with the other debuffs? Otherwise, they seem mediocre by comparison.

The old descriptions stated that these debuffs had two components (e.g., Nightmare would debuff both target damage and armor). While this description may have been misleading, it made the debuffs seem worth training.

Right now, these skills seem like they need adjusting.

They were adjusted. First off, they cost more mana than say, a warriors hellscream, because mages have lots of m/s, and warriors are lucky to have 2 mana. Archers generally don't use the debuffs, because they are more concerned with their "essential 4" skills and cc abilities, though this might change. Also keep in mind that they were weakened because you can use both nightmare and weakness at the same time and stack them, and they provide two different effects. Other classes only have one debuffing effect (except archers break armor and blinding shot, but these are not AoE). Lastly you are wrong in saying the debuffs have a shorter range. Weakness is 8m, just like other Aoe debuffs like Hellscream. Nightmare is 6 meters probably because it lowers armor, and they might have though it best that you have to take an extra step and sacrifice distance if you are going to be boosting your damage.

They are solid debuffs, and if you aren't a Paladain (str enchantress) you can use them repeatedly without worrying about mana because of high m/s. Its all about balance in the big picture, not just individual stat comparisons (ie weakness is -25 and hellscream is -50)

[Hraefn]

They were adjusted. First off, they cost more mana than say, a warriors hellscream, because mages have lots of m/s, and warriors are lucky to have 2 mana. Archers generally don't use the debuffs, because they are more concerned with their "essential 4" skills and cc abilities, though this might change. Also keep in mind that they were weakened because you can use both nightmare and weakness at the same time and stack them, and they provide two different effects. Other classes only have one debuffing effect (except archers break armor and blinding shot, but these are not AoE). Lastly you are wrong in saying the debuffs have a shorter range. Weakness is 8m, just like other Aoe debuffs like Hellscream. Nightmare is 6 meters probably because it lowers armor, and they might have though it best that you have to take an extra step and sacrifice distance if you are going to be boosting your damage.

They are solid debuffs, and if you aren't a Paladain (str enchantress) you can use them repeatedly without worrying about mana because of high m/s. Its all about balance in the big picture, not just individual stat comparisons (ie weakness is -25 and hellscream is -50)

First off, you were wrong to say I was wrong in saying the debuffs have a shorter range. I was only half wrong.

Sure, the debuffs can stack but you still only get a total of -50. Is -25 damage/-25 armor so much better than -50 damage that it should cost twice the number of trains and 5 times the mana? I know, I know, mages get more mana but they don't get more trains.

I notice you also didn't address the cooldown time, which is approximately 50% to 100% longer than those listed for the other classes' debuffs. How do you justify this?

[Azrael]

I notice you also didn't address the cooldown time, which is approximately 50% to 100% longer than those listed for the other classes' debuffs. How do you justify this?

I'm not a dev so i can't "justify" anything because its not my place to do so. I can only interpret and view the game from the most unbiased perspective i can. Hellscream is 22 second cool, and the mage debuffs are 32 and 34 (to lazy to look at archer). 1/3 extra time on the CD. That being said, with the larger mana pool and the very high potential m/s regen of mages, i suppose its because mages could spam these spells without going OOM, unlike a warrior that can go OOM in 8 skills clicks. Again they also have two, so they can rotate them.

Honestly if i thought Enchantress was getting the shaft on this i would agree with you. However i think its an attempt at balance. Until pvp is actually released, many of the complaints about classes and skills can't be fully explored.

[Hraefn]

I'm not a dev so i can't "justify" anything because its not my place to do so. I can only interpret and view the game from the most unbiased perspective i can. Hellscream is 22 second cool, and the mage debuffs are 32 and 34 (to lazy to look at archer). 1/3 extra time on the CD. That being said, with the larger mana pool and the very high potential m/s regen of mages, i suppose its because mages could spam these spells without going OOM, unlike a warrior that can go OOM in 8 skills clicks. Again they also have two, so they can rotate them.

Honestly if i thought Enchantress was getting the shaft on this i would agree with you. However i think its an attempt at balance. Until pvp is actually released, many of the complaints about classes and skills can't be fully explored.

Hellscream’s cooldown is 22 seconds. Nightmare’s is 32.

32/22 = 1.45

That means Nightmare’s cooldown is 45% longer than Hellscream’s. Not 1/3.

It’s worse for Weakness. 34/22 = @1.55. So its cooldown is @55% longer.

Comparing the Enchantress debuffs to Shattering Scream, which has a cooldown of 17, Nightmare’s cooldown is 88% longer while Weakness’s is 100% longer (i.e., twice as long).

Sure, the mage has two skills and can rotate them but then he/she is only getting half the given effect at any given time.

I agree that all this can wait until PvP comes out. I suspect that Weakness may be able to stack with either Hellscream or Shattering Scream whereas Hellscream and Shattering Scream will be unable to stack with each other. My main objection is the trains. I wouldn't mind if both the debuffs were combined into a single spell with a long cooldown and a massive mana cost.

I should also point out that many of my objections are based on the assumption that Shattering Scream debuffs -50. However, with the vague descriptions of Archer skills, I can't be entirely sure. This will be the basis of my next griping thread.

[Azrael]

I have no idea what you mean by "the trains." Are you trying to say you don't like how many points the spell costs vs what you get from it?

As for shattering scream, if it is slightly more effective, it may be because archers have to put themselves into a bad position to use it, or are already in one. I can't speak to this though as i don't have my phone next to me to compare skills.

Edit: also remember that lightning storm also has a built in armor debuff, and its a damage spell.

[Hraefn]

Sorry, I meant the number of skill points invested (I was using terminology from other games I've played).

Let’s use the following crude formula for the skill. For lack of a better term, I’ll call it a Return-on-Investment Formula.

(Duration/Cooldown * Range)/Number of Skill Points = ROI

Silent Scream

(5/17 * 8)/5 = .47


Weakness/Nightmare

(8/33 * 7)/10 = .17

Shattering Scream seems to yield nearly three times as much return on the investment.

This is assuming that Shattering Scream has a net -50 effect. I'm not sure it does because the description is vague. The spell might not even scale up. Who knows?!?

To simplify things, I’m using the average of range and cooldown of Weakness and Nightmare. In reality, to stack the two, you’ll have to get closer to use the skills and wait longer for the cooldown. I also didn’t take into account the fact that Shattering Scream does damage (not great damage) or that casting two spells instead of one takes longer, automatically reducing the stacking time.

To use Silent Scream, the Archer doesn’t have to be in any worse a position than the Enchantress does. In fact, the Enchantress has to be closer to the enemy. Granted, if the Archer doesn’t have a healer to help him recover, that’s very bad indeed. However, in PvP Enchantresses are likely to be priority targets and sticking close enough to the enemy to get multiple spells off will be a challenge. But that’s what will make it fun.

I also tried to take Lightning Storm into account. However, the relatively short duration of the debuffs combined with the time it takes to cast three spells makes it seem unlikely that the Enchantress will be able to have all three debuffs on a single target long enough to make much difference. Plus we don't know exactly what the debuff on Lightning Storm is. *Sigh*

[Azrael]

Those are some great statistics. We are going in circles so i'll simply say i see your point, but i think its fine given that the debuffs we are discussing stack (from different classes), and if made to strong would complete negate damage and armor. That and the mage has high m/s to cast spells repeatedly, whereas the warrior does not and the archer has low armor without heals. Making the enchantress debuffs slightly stronger would be ok, but i don't think they should be as strong as the other classes. We also haven't even begun to get into the effects changes to debuffs will have on hybrid classes. The battlemage is already a very strong choice without taking and doing more damage as a result of debuffs.

[Hraefn]

Yeah, sorry to go on and on about this. And I ultimately think you're right in that it's better to look at the skills as part of the larger class than it is to view them in isolation. For example, a coordinated group with two Enchantresses could use Weakness/Nightmare/Lightning Storm to great effect. Throw in Break Armor and Shattering Scream and you've got a lot going on.

I think I'll focus on whining about the Archer skill descriptions, which are currently inhibiting my pursuit of some different builds.

Have a good one!