Bears are underwhelming?

[Kujen]

With the new content, I enjoy my bear more than ever. Ive seen full parties wipe in sewers and I'll be the only one left alive. They solo pretty well too, if a bit slow. But it's fun

[TheLaw]

Bears are back You'll suffer if you don't use it well.

[WhoIsThis]

I'd say bears are reasonably balanced. In return for a melee attacks, you get much more health. If you've noticed, the kill to death ratio in PvE is often very high for bears compared to other players. As my main is a mage, I've found myself res-ing bears a lot less than any other class. Good bears are invaluable to any team. Between every class, there are tradeoffs. We mages will die a lot more. So will birds.

I can see why bears were not as attractive in AO3, but with the arrival of Shadow Caves and the Sewers, they've become a necessity. In fact, I consider it remarkable that Spacetime has done such a good job balancing the three classes.

[blehz]

Bears have top-notch tanking capabilites. Birds have top-notch damage for killing bosses. Elves have top-notch mob destruction skills. Seems fair.

I'll explain why bears do not have so called top-notch tanking capabilities.

With the new content, I enjoy my bear more than ever. Ive seen full parties wipe in sewers and I'll be the only one left alive. They solo pretty well too, if a bit slow. But it's fun

This reason is probably because bears are so used to potting simply because it's a necessity. We're not living longer because we're that much more tankable but rather because we've always got a stack of 300 health pots on hand and are readily spamming them. The only other difference is that bears tend to go strength and get gear with higher armor. It's more fair to compare a str bear with for example a str enchantress.

What do we get for defense? 2 dodge buffs and 25 armor for 12 secs
What do enchantresses get for defense? 2 armor buffs for 36 armor for 12 secs oh not to mention usable heals, +50% crit, usable AoE's, and freeze which prevents more damage than you can imagine.
What do birds get for defense? Constant 30 dodge.

That's it for tankability comparison. I'm not gonna argue gear or stats or pot spamming because they're interchangeable on all classes. In the end, birds get more dodge, a bit less armor....not that big of a difference. Enchantresses get MORE armor (lol) + mana shield (double health lol) and amazing skills. Seriously, only reason to play bear is because we get to mess around with beckon. Even then, beckon sucks sometimes because it'll get your enchantress killed if you pull all mobs and don't stun.

I don't see where people are getting these arguments where the new patch made bears more viable. Enchantresses still seem like the best tanks and bird tankability isn't that much worse. Most of those classes just don't roll str and get real armor. The only change from the new patch is skills got +1 level - utter fail for bear btw, who knows what level 6 beckon does compared to level 5. For our other skills: + a little more evasion? + 5 more armor to our buff? + a bit more damage to single target skills? The only real thing we got that's good is the crit buff, our debuffs, and maybe stomp. Although the ridiculous knockback is still annoying.

On a side note....all other classes can attain much more survivability from rolling hybrid str.
TBH, I don't see why all classes don't play with hybrid str for armor + relevant dps stat of their choice. The loss of 100-150 stat points is laughable compared to the huge armor gains. Likewise, I don't know why people roll pure STR tanks when their hit rate is sitting at 70%. Off the top of my head, for 150 stat points, you get something like +10 armor, dodge, and some HP - compared to 30% hit, 10% crit, and 7 armor. I don't know what people are blabbing about with "high skill damage" for pures but as far as I know, BS from people who haven't tested. Skill damage is approximately (BASE WEAPON DAMAGE +/- some minimal amount) + SET AMOUNT (usually +10-60 depending on skill level). All that really matters is BASE WEAPON DAMAGE and str does extremely little to effect it. In fact dex or int, while still minimal, do more to increase it. Although I haven't really played through all the classes, I've tested the effects of each stat and the only reason to ever go a pure DPS stat is (for enchantresses, glass cannon pve, or for archers, one shotting in pvp before getting hit).

EDIT: Point is, until I see a noticeable change in skills for bears that gives us the huge boost to defense we deserve as a tradeoff for having weak melee ranged skills and no aoe's, I don't think I can consider bears even close to balanced - unless they've introduced class specific gear in the 55 patch that I haven't yet heard about.

Is there something I'm missing? Why aren't bears complaining more? Is everyone happy with hitting beckon, spamming pseudo stuns, and potting like a mad man while your pally enchantress tanks better and is off soloing the rest of the zone? If you're adamant about bears being a good tanking class, please explain why and how with concrete numbers and game mechanics. I'd very much like to know exactly if so, that I'm wrong. Oh and one more thing - the reason why I'm willing to argue so much is because I actually like the game and I'm willing to put more money into it if I see the devs actually caring about the balance and the fun that goes into the play style of the character. I figure if enough people are unhappy about bears then changes are more likely to be made. If no one speaks up, bears will be gimp as always.

[Kujen]

Paladins are not good tanks, sorry. Yes they can keep themselves alive, but they cant taunt to get the aggro off people. Everytime i play my bird or int mage, I out-damage the paladins, take the aggro and end up tanking when i don't want to. Bear taunt needs to be improved a bit, but at least when theres a bear who knows to spam taunt..they end up taking the damage for me like they're supposed to.

My bear has full rift and has not had to spam many health pots unless absolutely surrounded by enemies. My bird has to stand back and chug them constantly to stay alive. I even have to use them on my int mage sometimes, either chugging health pots in between heal cooldowns or mana pots to keep my shield up. Again, usually because I am out-damaging those paladins who won't be able to take the aggro off me. I end up tanking for bosses more than I'd care to.

On overlord, I never had to use a tankers pot on my bear. And if mages were healing, I would barely use any health pots. My bird had to spam them regardless, because they took birds dodge away when they moved it from dex to str. The dodge buff for birds is not enough. My bird has been the most difficult to solo in sewers with.

My bear feels like a tank, I'm not worried about the armor. I'd rather have more damage actually. Why does sunblessed scimitar do less damage than a common luminous harpoon of destiny?

[Moogerfooger]

I have 168 armor, 29 dodge and 26 regen on my bear, and do not even need a health pot on Bandit Stronghold, so I am not sure why you are insisting that a solid setup on a bear needs to spam pots, unless I am possibly misreading your post. Heck, the Queen didn't even dent me. Granted, my DPS is mediocre on a good day with a tailwind and I have zero mana regen so I have to use 5-10 mana pots on a level for negligible cost, but that is (in my opinon) not the point of a bear in the first place.

[Ellyidol]

I beg to differ, I think bears are stronger now than ever.

[DontNerfMeBro]

Original post really sums it up. It's a shame. My first toon was a bear and I refused to accept that they sucked for quite a while, but eventually broke down. Royce brings up a really good point about how tanking is a concept without bearing in PL.

[blehz]

I have 168 armor, 29 dodge and 26 regen on my bear, and do not even need a health pot on Bandit Stronghold, so I am not sure why you are insisting that a solid setup on a bear needs to spam pots, unless I am possibly misreading your post. Heck, the Queen didn't even dent me. Granted, my DPS is mediocre on a good day with a tailwind and I have zero mana regen so I have to use 5-10 mana pots on a level for negligible cost, but that is (in my opinon) not the point of a bear in the first place.

Does that include temporary buffs? I'm not saying you can't achieve good tankability in the game, but assuming you didn't include buffs, an enchantress can get 168 armor, 29 dodge, and 26 regen...and actually be able to aoe somewhat decently. If you do, enchantresses end up with more armor and 50% crit compared to 30%. Also, they can heal. Bottom line is, skill difference. Enchantress skills are amazing, bears - not so much.

[Kingslaya]

Blhez your missing the point. Paladins Can not hold Aggro like Bears can with Taunt. Reason being is that the Birds and Enchantress can output more damage then both the Bear and Paladin. This is were Taunt comes into play and steals the aggro regardless of the damage being output. In addition it is 0 mana so it requires no mana regen to use, and the dodge buff it gives you lasts longer then the cooldown so it could go on forever without ever paying mana. I do agrre with Kujen that Taunt needs to be improved some; maybe like make the aggro last longer or something idk. Final point is that yes Paladins can do more AoE damage and can hold their own, but no they are not better tanks because they can not hold aggro like the bear can, which basically defines what being a Tank is in the simplest of terms.

[Riccits]

i tryed my dex bear last days and i must say i have a lot of fun with... i can shot mobs and stun them all the time.. the new combo is very powerfull and i coudnt say that my bear is no fun playing..

[Moogerfooger]

Does that include temporary buffs? I'm not saying you can't achieve good tankability in the game, but assuming you didn't include buffs, an enchantress can get 168 armor, 29 dodge, and 26 regen...and actually be able to aoe somewhat decently. If you do, enchantresses end up with more armor and 50% crit compared to 30%. Also, they can heal. Bottom line is, skill difference. Enchantress skills are amazing, bears - not so much.

No, those were permanent stats I mentioned. Actually got the stats to 168 arm, 33 dodge, 30 Hregen, 160 DPS.

I'm not disagreeing with your points about the enchantress....but Kingslaya hit it on the head: a bear can Taunt and Beckon (and Stomp, if done correctly) to great effect and keep aggro much better than any other player, generally speaking. And if you don't think this can be done effectively, then you haven't played with Ellyidol who has it down to a science. I thought I was pretty good at it, then I was on a sewer run with her while I was playing my bird and saw just how effective at mob control/setting up for the enchants/archers a bear really can pull off, not to mention being a meatshield/keeping aggro against the bosses.

[Cmandial]

Final point is that yes Paladins can do more AoE damage and can hold their own, but no they are not better tanks because they can not hold aggro like the bear can, which basically defines what being a Tank is in the simplest of terms.

I think the main point is that bears on not necessary in order to be successful. Every team needs to have at least 1 Mage for heal and revs, and birds are always present for dps, but teams can function just fine without bears. On victory lap runs, I even find it more efficient no to have a bear on the team in order to have more dps from another bird. The game right now is not hard enough that teams need tanks in order to survive, and until some changes are made, people are much better off playing paladins. While they may not be able to tank as well as bears, they make up for it with their skills like ice storm, their buffs, and heal.

Summary:
If the Devs are making it to where all bears are meant to do is tank, the they should having a tank necessary. As of now teams are better off with the extra damage from a bird or enchantress than with the sligh increase in tanking capabilities bears have over paladins.

[blehz]

Update: Finally decided to actually take some time to level and got my bear to 45+. I've been solo tanking crush runs just fine. It's debatable as to whether or not using beckon to clump mobs for enchantresses to aoe actually helps the group kill faster. I've finally maxed debuffs and against normal bosses (aside from mynas) it's pretty sick as you basically take 0 damage tanking. Spam debuffs and like evade, I assume they last a certain duration and stack. Also, helps alot against mynas who without debuffs can 1-2 shot me but with debuffs takes 4-5 hits. The only really great thing I've found though, is that you can tank and set up whole rooms for your group to AoE. For example, the black alien room that spawns mynas can be pulled all at once with all defensive buffs up + spam taunt through the halls and you pull to your mages killing 20-30 mobs at once. I don't know if other classes can do it as well without taunt. Anyways, that's my input. There's not much point tanking small groups, but tanks played correctly (massive armor + pulling ridiculous amounts of mobs at once) can make parties move much faster. Too bad it's pretty situational as mobs start to return to their positions if you train them too far - otherwise you'd see tanks pulling entire zones and everyone aoeing at the final boss (that'd be pretty sick if you could).

Oh yeah...and seriously, can they make the heal dispell debuffs or at least heal based on our weapon damage? WTF is the point of that spell. -_-

[darcsdude]

Personally, my issue is with be able to gain and hold aggro. I feel that even though you spam taunt, it is still relatively ineffective. I do think ALL of the bear skills should have some random increased chance of changing aggro as a whole, and then taunt even higher.

[Ellyidol]

Oh yeah...and seriously, can they make the heal dispell debuffs or at least heal based on our weapon damage? WTF is the point of that spell. -_-

It's good in pvp. Decent in pve. Look at the HS more than the actual heal

Personally, my issue is with be able to gain and hold aggro. I feel that even though you spam taunt, it is still relatively ineffective. I do think ALL of the bear skills should have some random increased chance of changing aggro as a whole, and then taunt even higher.

This is true. Taunt is still a bit weak, unless spammed properly and established well. Aggro factor could still be improved, but other than that bears seem to do really well.

[Phoenixking]

Imo a bear just needs to have a little more damage on the weapons.....since you got to get close an you only hit one target with your melee weaponi think it better, maybe better it by 15-25 more damage then before i think thats a reasonable solution