Playing as a bear I've also noticed if I beckon/ stomp (combo) then taunt I gain aggro back, at least it seems to work for me. I know this is not the topic but just saying aggro can be taken away from archers.
Playing as a bear I've also noticed if I beckon/ stomp (combo) then taunt I gain aggro back, at least it seems to work for me. I know this is not the topic but just saying aggro can be taken away from archers.
Well I agree with everyone here that aggro seems to shift based on the threat of a particular player. Meaning those characters with the highest dps seem to naturally pull aggro. However, when tanking with my bear I can tend to keep aggro with a boss as long as I spam taunt and rage (at least for half the boss fight), since rage adds so much dps and general damage to a bear attack. It is just about impossible to keep aggro the entire time with a bear, but more than anything if you can keep it some of the time it gives a break to allow for healing and health pots.
What really is frustrating is when party members intentionally dial back attacks to avoid getting aggro only to leave your bird to get pounded or constantly spamming health pots.
Very true! It all comes down to teamwork. If everyone plays there roles right, it all works out IMO!
It definitely helps alot if there's a good tank, there're some bear friends in my list that I usually like to play with. But if using my skills will result my getting aggro'd then I guess seeing mobs running around behind me can be sort of a thrill too.
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I think thedevs should make taunt stronger. I tank well, can hold aggro most of the time, but it is embarrossing when tuant doesnt work, or my aoe dps is too low on mobs so they get attacked instead of me. also if a bird or elf deals a huge hit combo on a boss, it makes bears look like fools as we try to chase around the boss, beckoning it off our mages/birds and spamming taunt to no affect
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If you get infected with gold fever and run away from the group, it should only hit you for about half to 2/3rds of your life. You normally don't die from it unless you're near someone.Originally Posted by adwin
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So what I understand from this thread is that pure dex bird usually has the highest DPS in a party, so the highest level bird will take usually take aggro. The only proven way to take aggro away from bird is for a bear to purposefully take aggro away (which most are not willing to do). So birds who have the lowest survivability out of the three classes (mages have mana shield, bears have HP and dodge) are also the class that is most likely to take all of the damage from bosses? Does this sound correct to you?!
Yeah sadly, if the bear doesn't want to tank in the first place, aggro should always go to the highest DPS.
Thats where the problem lies though, even if a bear wants to take aggro, it doesn't always mean he gets it. Which leads to your point, how can the softest class be expected to get aggro if aggro skills don't even fully work on bears.
Thoughts:
- If the bear doesn't want to take aggro, well, you're going to get aggro. That's a bear who isn't doing their job properly (sadly there are lots of bears like this), but regardless, you are stuck with aggro.
- As was pointed out, the problem lies in when the bear wants to take aggro but is unable to do so. I have seen situations where bears, despite having rage on, then casting taunt, crippling blow, and super mega, plus a bunch of other moves, unable to take aggro away from either of the two other classes. In that case, the only way for a bear to gain aggro would be for all 4 members of the team to cease firing until the bear gains aggro (unacceptable in many cases).
- Going on that, one very alarming thing I see sometimes in PvE is what I call boss leeching - people who simply do not try to output maximum DPS for fear of gaining aggro.
Fundamentally, the problem is that a bird has the highest DPS. Pure int mages also have similar problems - low armor and very high DPS; I have often been aggroed after casting a combo. The bosses are going to identify you as the top threat that needs to be taken out. The reason is because of how players choose to build their characters - more dakka. You chose pure dex bird, not dex/str dual spec (warbird). Mages chose to be pure int and not pally. Otherwise, bears would have less trouble doing so.
I think that you are going to have to accept that you will have aggro and figure out how to improve survivability, along with how to kill bosses the fastest.
+1.
Another thing I thought of....sometimes when running in our Train parties, it seemed that when I was running my higher Crit setup, man I would get aggro and keep it even moreso than normal. It is just a thought, but maybe crit has something directly/indirectly to do with it...although it ties into damage per fit/DPS, so not an entirely original thought.
Moogerfooger - Dex Bird | Moogerfoogerz - Dual Bear |Brutalityz - loser mage
@Mooger: higher crit makes you deal more damage over time, which fits with the +damage -> aggro hypothesis.
I have found this to be true (tested with switching among higher crit, dps and armor setups)
IGN: adwinp
That is what I meant, adwin. What I should have said was that when I go with sets that have a little less DPS but higher Crit, I hold aggro more than lower Crit/higher dmg setups with roughly the same damage output.
Moogerfooger - Dex Bird | Moogerfoogerz - Dual Bear |Brutalityz - loser mage
I wonder if the frequency that a person holds aggro relative to the rest of their team is an accurate way to measure their damage output to a single target. The real question is - what matters more to aggro: burst damage or sustained damage? Birds have very high both. Release everything you've got break armor, cruel blast, thorn root, blinding shot, repulse, and you've got a formidable burst damage, especially with focus. What I found interesting is that a significant amount of time (and you've seen this first hand mooger), is that I end up holding aggro despite the presence of birds releasing everything they've got. First, that implies that pure int mages are probably in the same ballpark (not a surprise - our drain life and frostbite attacks are quite damaging to single targets, as are our area spells) or that there is some other factor at work. Debuffs do not seem to attract aggro. What other factors are there?
Another point worth making is that when properly supported (ex: constant heals), archers are pretty good at aggro. They can use repulse to push their targets away and their weapons have the longest range of the three classes (especially blasters). Although they can't hold ground like bears, they are still very good at getting bosses to play cat and mouse. Mages, not so much - no repulse. The only saving grace is that they can heal. Mana shield, while useful is not as effective as it seems in that a boss could quickly put a mage in a position where their mana has been depleted.
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 02-26-2011 at 10:11 PM. Reason: Corrected a spelling error
That's what I usually do: when hacking at harder bosses and when I KNOW I'm bound to get aggro, I unleash my finger dance combo and leave repulse when I start getting aggro'd.
Great survivability rate. This also allows you to solo *most* bosses.
IGN: adwinp
Yes, I have seen you completely hold aggro with Phys and I and Mitsu just unleashing everything. I wonder if the game, in the background, takes a time period like...5 seconds...figures out who dealt it the most damage during that 5 secs, and aggros there. Not necessarily at first, the one to nail with a high damage skill seems to get it initially....but maybe afterward? Just a wild-a$$ guess.
Yes, repulse shot works wonders when you have aggro, as long as you don't blast the boss past the reset point. And having Evasion on as much as possible, ofc.
Moogerfooger - Dex Bird | Moogerfoogerz - Dual Bear |Brutalityz - loser mage
Oh no no. I always try to pin him to a wall thanks to repulse.
Add that to strategy. ;]
On a side note, I HATE it when ppl repulse or bears push outside of reset, especially with GF and goblin king.
IGN: adwinp
Oh that is just a given
Moogerfooger - Dex Bird | Moogerfoogerz - Dual Bear |Brutalityz - loser mage
I will often hold back my spells until multiple spells are recharged. I then unload everything at once for the reason that it does do more net damage over time. Different abilities have different recharge times (most archer abilities are within 1 second of each other). My first shot is always armor debuff (nightmare, which is that purple thing you see under me). Archers to some extent should as well. Break armor is the first thing that the archer should always fire at a boss before anything else as well, to maximize the damaging effects of everything else.
In your example, despite yourself and the rest of the birds unloading everything, in many cases, I still held aggro, in many cases until either I or the boss died. That implies that the boss (in our case Gold Fever) still considers me to be a bigger threat. It's entirely possible that you would have to do a significantly higher amount of damage than I was in order to gain aggro. However, the fact that I gained aggro initially at all suggests that whatever the enemy's criteria, I ranked near the top, if not the top.
Another interesting point is the proportion of damage coming from weapons versus spells. Birds are heavily "weapon-centric", that is their abilities are an extension of their main weapon. The main damage inflicter is the bow or blaster or wing/talon itself. Among the abilities, blast shot/cruel is the main damage dealer. Bears are like that too, with just super mega slash being a significant damage dealer (not to mention chance of rooting the target). The other attacks emphasize debuffing or having an effect rather than direct damage. For mages, things are different. We are "spell-centric", that is our wands and staffs don't do nearly as much damage, but our spells are much more potent. We have lightning, fire blast, ice storm (combine for combo with fire blast), frost bite, and drain life. These are all dedicated towards inflicting damage. Spells like break armor aren't designed to inflict damage as much as they are designed to debuff.
Implications? For mages, mana regen is critical. This is a serious problem for dex mages. Mage equipment in general has high mana regen. Contrast these two pictures (dex mage vs. int mage). Note the mana regen rates on both. If you are a bird or bear, compare the mana regen to your own. You'll notice that we mages burn through mana because we need it not just for things like heal, but because we need it to inflict damage. For you guys, the weapon is the center. Whether this has any impact on aggro is unknown.
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 02-26-2011 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Clarifying
This sums it up, but whilst facing a boss, you ARE supposed to unload everything (speaking from a bird's view point, of course), which DOES NOT mean that it has to be chaotic (button mashing).
I DO unload everything, save for repulse (in case I need it, should I keep aggro for too long) and I alternate between the 2 rooting techniques.
I will have to disagree with you regarding the opening shot for a bird (although it might just be subjective):
the first thing I nearly ALWAYS do, it root. Once the target's dodge goes down (hopefully), I fire away the rest of my debuffs.
Since the root should have decreased his dodged, the rest has a better probability of connecting.
THEN come the real damage dealers -> combos.
IGN: adwinp
I always try to take as much aggro i can with My Tank bear ... But sometimes i cant take aggro even if i use Evade and Taunt which should take a lot of the aggro..
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