Can the Bear be saved?

[FluffNStuff]

I have finally come to accept the fact that the bear has no place in Balefort Sewers, and only takes a spot that could be better utilized by a bird or Mage. For this reason, I will no longer be burdening groups with my bear. To understand why a bear is dead weight, we need to look at a good BS team and what their rolls are. I think the perfect team is 2 mages and 3 birds.
Mages in BS: Bird Escorts. Their job is to bull doze through mobs to get the Birds to the boss.
Birds: These are the rock stars. Their job is to kill the boss, and they are quite good at it.
Bears: Hmm ... I guess beckon helps gather the mobs, but that means one less mage to actually kill the mobs or one less bird to actually kill the boss. I have tried a bunch of different things to make the bear a damage machine, but it was a futile effort. There is no way they can compete with a bird for damage, because they were designed from the beginning to tank, and tanks are officially outdated technology in BS.
So what changed?
A Bears job ~used~ to be to protect the birds and mages and to absorb damage to keep the team from getting killed. But in BS, what is killing Mages and Birds? It sure isn't the mobs or even the boss, it's the fire traps. And A bear can't protect them from a fire trap. So the bear has officially lost his job to 'careful walking'.
So the question is, can the bear be saved? Only thing I can think of is make one of their skills deactivate fire traps.

[Royce]

I disagree to an extent. I was disappointed that the difficulty if BS is low enough that a good tank isn't really needed, but personally I find clearing maps goes much faster with a good bear, and they can also be helpful with bosses mostly by keeping them pinned, stunned, and debuffed. Are they as necessary as they should be? No, bit my ideal team is still 1 bear, 2 mages, 2 birds (though 5 mages works pretty well too ).

[giayuan]

Im sorry fluffy buddy, but i havta agree with royce. Ive been trying to lvl my mage up, and with a good bear, that taunts and beckons well, my xp pot lasted all the way until gold fever had 1/2 hp. Without the bear in the next run, xp pot disappeared right before boss in that last branch with mobs. And of course, 3 pallys and 2 mages ftw.

[Physiologic]

Running with ellyidol makes our hideout runs as equal to 3 bird and 2 mages

[Ellyidol]

I see where your coming from.

The NEED for one isn't exactly there anymore, and that's exactly what I told someone who died in BS due to a fire trap, that we can't tank them for you.

Thats what lead me to level my bird and sadly leave my bear only if there's no other bear in the group. It may or may not be faster, but its definitely safer for the birds and mages.

Also the reason why my bear is now using a bow for more damage

[Conradin]

I like bears- and Royce is right

[Doubletime]

I have to disagree that the bear isn't useful to any group. In fact, I find myself missing a good bear in our sewer runs for one simple reason. My bird combo (Shattering Scream + Blast Shot) does tons of damage on clumps of mobs. The mage combo (ice/fire blast) is the same way. So is the thorn wall + lightning. Bears are uniquely able to beckon together these clumps for fast efficient killing that results in less overall damage, health pot use, and time. If (and with pick up groups it is a big IF) the players know how to work together and to time combos, a bear is a great addition to a party with a couple birds and mages. If find it more fun to run a board trying to use these skills over just madly running and shooting and spamming whatever skill happens to cool down first. The bear taunts and beckons. I cast shattering scream and thorn wall. Then the mage hits lightning while I hit blast shot and the mage follows with a face melt combo (or whatever it is called). Just about any group of mobs is very dead. Three combos within seconds of one another is pretty effective.

So, to me at least, the bear is a good addition to help clear any board and get to the boss -- assuming the bear is working with the rest of the party. Boss kills may be a little different. But you have to get to the boss first.

I think the board makes a difference too. The hideout and stronghold aren't that tough. The catacombs and roach motel are a little different because those little mutant ninja turtle yeti things can put out a ton of damage. It helps to have someone up front taunting and taking aggro so I can take my finger off the health pot and kill something. So fluff your bear is welcome in one of my parties any time.

[FluffNStuff]

Couple things. First, if it is the difference between having an empty spot or having a bear there, then there are a number of bears I would not mind having in that spot. But for most PUG bears, I would rather that spot be empty, because most tend to scatter mobs instead of packing em. Now for the tank issue. Sure it is nice having a tank there to absorb some damage from mobs, but I would prefer a mage or bird that can just ~kill~ the mobs, and as that eliminates the damage issue all together . And having a tank on a lot of BS bosses just makes it necessary to have a tank. This is because having bears there drags out the boss fight and makes the boss damage an issue. With enough birds and mages, the boss just dies quick and no need to worry about someone absorbing damage. Anyway, the consensus seems to be having ONE bear is not that bad of a thing. But of course more then one is a disaster. Nothing worse then conflicting beckons.

[Royce]

It seems like you are presenting two different problems now Fluff. Bears aren't as useful/needed as they should be, and many high level bears do more harm than good foe the party. I only partially agree with the first part. For simply clearing the map, a good bear can dramatically speed things up in my experience, mostly due to well timed and placed beckoning. Two mages and a bird or two will easily take down any group the bear pulls together quickly. Another mage's AOE is just overkill and would only be needed if mobs were more spread out (lack of a good bear). As for the second point, I agree. There are many really disruptive or just plain useless bears playing in BS, who don't aggressively take the lead and know how to use their skills. Does that mean bears are dead? I don't think so necessarily. They are just misinformed or don't understand their role.

[Kossi]

I have finally come to accept the fact that the bear has no place in Balefort Sewers, and only takes a spot that could be better utilized by a bird or Mage. For this reason, I will no longer be burdening groups with my bear. To understand why a bear is dead weight, we need to look at a good BS team and what their rolls are. I think the perfect team is 2 mages and 3 birds.
Mages in BS: Bird Escorts. Their job is to bull doze through mobs to get the Birds to the boss.
Birds: These are the rock stars. Their job is to kill the boss, and they are quite good at it.
Bears: Hmm ... I guess beckon helps gather the mobs, but that means one less mage to actually kill the mobs or one less bird to actually kill the boss. I have tried a bunch of different things to make the bear a damage machine, but it was a futile effort. There is no way they can compete with a bird for damage, because they were designed from the beginning to tank, and tanks are officially outdated technology in BS.
So what changed?
A Bears job ~used~ to be to protect the birds and mages and to absorb damage to keep the team from getting killed. But in BS, what is killing Mages and Birds? It sure isn't the mobs or even the boss, it's the fire traps. And A bear can't protect them from a fire trap. So the bear has officially lost his job to 'careful walking'.
So the question is, can the bear be saved? Only thing I can think of is make one of their skills deactivate fire traps.

whoa bears are needed very much

i saw prodiggy tank, and i was awestruck, he was AMAZING

it totally changed my perception about bears

[Kingofhurtz]

If the bear cannot properly tank (sadly most non-forumers can't but for a few exceptions) then yes, to me that bear is pretty much invisible. Now if the bear is good at tanking, they're are a blessing! Example- I ran a few hideout runs with -insert name here- (a bear who could not tank for his lfe) and we lost pur pots before we even got to Fever. Then, I ran a few with krazii, who's ah amazing tank. Our pots lasted through all of Fever and then some. So what I'm trying say is that if all bears could truly tank, I'd want one in every run. But now, automatically when a bear joins, I jump to the conclusion that our run is going to be slower than with a bird or Mage. It's very rare to find a good bear. I see bears who don't use beckon!!!!! My highest level bear is 38 and even I have come to realize how important it is! It's like an archer not using blast shot or focus. Oh well, I'm just glad there's a few (including you fluff) who still know how to play their char to it's fullest. They're definitely becoming a minority...

[Pharcyde]

I love how everyone still yells "Let the bear run in first!" on certain balefort sewer bosses .

[Fyrce]

I think bears are very useful in BS and I like playing my bear in BS.

That said, I'm not sure the bears are NECESSARY.

I was playing my bird the other day and I have to say, I thought the same thing as Fluff. It was 3 mages and 2 birds or 2 mages and 3 birds in Swill Pitz and after a few runs, I did start thinking it was the mages' job to escort us to the boss. For the trash mobs, the mages did most of the blasting. While birds were cool for those, I'm not sure how necessary that was. Mage do a good job of blasting trash and rez'ing each other for the grates.

However, you want the boss dead before 1st totem heal? That would be the birds. So escort away!

I've done this with a bear, 2 mages and 2 birds also. So it's not like bears are NOT necessary. It might just be that it's smart to have a bird or two at the boss. I do think getting to the boss is faster w/ a bear gathering. I don't know about people yelling about bears running in first, but having the bird run in first is usually not the greatest idea

It's fun waiting to see whether one of the staff-wielding mages will run in first or a bird. Pretty hilarious.

[adwin]

I find a bear nearly a necessity in BS.
ESPECIALLY if you're doing speed runs. Beckon mobs, a bird shatter screams + instantly draws a thorn wall, combos into blast shot while the mage does aoe lightning.
That's a 1 combo-kill per mob sir.

While the presence of a bear in the Hideout might be questionable at some point (good lvl 54/55 archers+mages), in other levels with fire traps, they shave off quite some time on the clock.

[Sigkill]

Im sorry fluffy buddy, but i havta agree with royce. Ive been trying to lvl my mage up, and with a good bear, that taunts and beckons well, my xp pot lasted all the way until gold fever had 1/2 hp. Without the bear in the next run, xp pot disappeared right before boss in that last branch with mobs. And of course, 3 pallys and 2 mages ftw.

With 3 birds and 2 mages my exp pot last after gold finger is dead, I agree with fluff bears do need to be improved

[WhoIsThis]

I think that the problem is not so much that bears desperately need improvement as it is that most bear players desperately need to know how to take the most advantage of their abilities properly. On one hand, you've got players like Xom or Elly who are amazing. On the other hand, most PUG bears ... it can be annoying to say the least. Many don't try to lead the pack. Others misuse stomp and send things all over the place. There are those who don't taunt as well and if they don't try to get aggro, well they aren't going to get aggro. For whatever reason, bears seem to have the highest proportion of players that don't seem to take full advantage of their class' abilities.

One bear I met even told me that the birds should lead the pack and that the bear should stay back. This bear was pure strength, when I asked him what he specced at six, he said evade, iron blood (this bear isn't going to die from mobs, especially not with full hate on), super mega, beckon, stomp, I forget the rest, but a pretty solid build.

The thing is, the bear is what it is meant to be: a tank. It absorbs a lot of damage, plays a vital role in keeping the team alive, and sets up the enemy so that they are easy pickings for the rest of the team. It is not a heavy damage dealer. Another problem is that the difficulty isn't up there so that you really need a tank to well, as Royce pointed out. Perhaps there needs to be an elite sewers level to change this one.

[skavenger216]

I have to agree with everyone sayin most bears are bad, I usually shudder when a 2nd bear joins a group I'm in, usually because 90% of the time it means I'm gonna spend my time nicely packing mobs against a wall, only to watch the other bear beckon in the middle of nowhere, sending mobs flying everywhere. So annoying!

I will however say that a good tank can do nothing but help make a run go smoother and more efficiently, however a baddie bear can make a dungeon into a painful grind. A really irritating thing that's been happening to me lately is ill see a bear who quite obviously doesn't know what he's doing, I'll try to very nicely tell them " hey, try pulling and tanking into walls, much more efficient for the group", only to get rude comments back in return. I'm just trying to help!

[Baked-Potato]

I will also have to disagree about Bears not really having a place in the Sewers. A good Bear with the proper Tanking ability can make the runs smooth and quick. There's been BS games where with my Bear (and a great team of Mages/Birds), we don't even get a chance to stop running.

The only problem is that there isn't a place for Tanking in the Sewers. Like it was said, Mages and Birds die from Firetraps more then from the Mobs and Bosses, and Bears can't tank Firetraps. I think maybe if an Attack Bear played with excellent crowd control might be more useful than a full Tank. If you could have the maxium damage output without hindering the crowd control of a Tank, I think it might be more efficient and a little quicker then a tank doing very minimal damage with crowd control. Just a thought.

[krazii]

Good thread, only thing I can add is sometimes two bears can be better then one. I run with Elly, Xom, Bozack, and Nicholastan occasionally and we tandem very well, stronger beckons (if done from same spot) and lot's and lot's of combos (especially with a mage that can freezes at ideal time). Best part I think is that the mages and birdies can run around and just blast away knowing we are continually taking aggro (well timed taunts) so they can be very agressive with their skills and combos. We can generally run as fast as a group with one bear, sometimes faster when one of us can sneak ahead and to gather up the mobs for the birds and mages to come in and wipe. We usually finish bosses on most levels with exp pots still burning unless a grate wipes half the party. FYI, there is a thread which is an excellent guide about Bears, it gives lots and lots of strategy and tips for playing a good bear.

Thanks,

Kraz

[Riccits]

1 Bear is very usefull in BS IMO! But the problem is that 99% of Bears cant use them right... They should lead the party and group the mobs and the rest of should vaporize em then... its much easier so then single kill all mobs...
Most bears run behind me (me as bird) and are afraid to run in a crowd, becon and stomp mobs in all directions... thats not the right way...
To all bears outside there, watch bears like Elly, Masterhoon, Toughie, Krazi, Xom etc. (i know them from playing, iam sure there are more good ones) for the right usage