Pure Int as Aggro Machine?

[WhoIsThis]

There was a thread - archers and aggro that got me thinking.

Pure int mages are the best AOE units in the game - hands down. However, what about our ability to damage ONE target? With blessings of might (every mage should make this skill 6 IMO), we have +60% crit - lethal with our AOE spells and drain life. I have often found myself in a position where I have aggro.

The other day, I was playing with some of my friends. Anyways, we were fighting Gold Fever and both me and the other level 56 bird (Moogerfooger) took a red orb. I believe that Mooger was using either a Raid Roach Recurve or the new Sewer King Scarab (can't remember). Anyways, we are both level 56. Out of our group of 5, Mooger was 4th to enter (we both broke off to get the red orbs), and I was the last. I got aggro. My blessings, debuffs, plus hot flash and lightning (Mooger believes it comboed to make nature strike) got me the aggro.

I just got out of a game minutes ago where despite the presence of another level 56 bird with the scarab bow (neither of us had orbs this time), I got the aggro. And I was third person in that room with Gold.

I think that pure int mages are going to find themselves in situations where they are going to be facing aggro a lot now that I think about it. I have often found that in A03, the keeper likes to target me over the level 50 birds (this was when 50 was the cap and I had full shadow, while the birds would have void or sentinel).

At this point, there is one thing in our favour somewhat. The mega mage series offers a lot better protection than anything before - pure ints can basically play in many cases like pallys (I'm not joking about this). We paid though a big price in crit for that (I would sacrifice a bit of mana regen for crit). Overall in terms of damage to a single target, int mages must be in the same ballpark as the pure dex birds on a single target.

Strategies for survival? I can hold aggro against Gold Fever reasonably well, particularly if my team defuses the soul chest with the green orb powering the bomb fast. I haven't tested extensively though against other bosses yet.



Specifically to Royce:
I can now see why you spent so long farming for the mega mage gemstone bracer. At time of this writing, there aren't any on the CS and it does complete the set (no bonus though). I've got all but the bracer. I'm gonna be buying the gemstone staff too - one thing is for certain: with this level of protection, I feel comfortable in a good team using the staff. However, with no proc, I'm not sure how much more effective damage the staff does over the wand. I'm also not sure how much more firepower the staff has in terms of spell damage over the wand/bracer combo.

[Major]

Well my level 55 Mage has the full mega Mage gear. The cowl, robes and gemstone staff, and the aggro seems to always be against me. When fighting GF it seems like I always am the one to get the fever, no joke like 85% of the time, you have to save your mana shield or you will die lol. Unfortunately the shield does not come back in time for the next fever attack so save your buffs heal and DL for that one lol.

[WhoIsThis]

Agreed about saving mana shield. It is possible though to survive a prolonged fight; just time your mana shield.

The only thing that kills at this point are the one-hit bomb blasts, which I have seen kill bears.

[Major]

Agreed about saving mana shield. It is possible though to survive a prolonged fight; just time your mana shield.

The only thing that kills at this point are the one-hit bomb blasts, which I have seen kill bears.

For sure you can survive a prolonged fight, but you will need health and mana potions. My Mage is very very squishy, at this point I'm used to dying. One the other hand, you will be a vaporizer and the trick is to kill them before they kill you. Don't forget your combos, remember lightning has a small armor debuff as well. If your with a good team it won't matter to much, and it's lots of fun to play. As for the fire bombs....watch out but that goes for almost every char.

[Tsarra]

I'm very used to pulling triple duty in PUGs (healing, AoE steam engine and tanking), so seeing a thread like this is no surprise. I don't believe an Enchantress can compare to the sheer range of spells and abilities a bird has to offer in terms of 1 on 1 boss smashing, but I find myself regularly pulling aggro when I run into a boss room, guns blazing. I do A LOT of damage at the moment I start the fight...more than a bird could in the same time frame, I'd wager. This is probably why I pull aggro. A bird can do more sustained damage than I can to one target, though, so I'm a little jealous...all of my spells take forever on cooldown, and the bird can keep churning out DPS.

My thoughts, anyway. I'm still on the cusp of graduating Noob School, but this seems like what I've noticed in random groups with random folks in random places.

[Adapts]

Yea if we blow all cds in the beginning we take aggro, heal gives aggro as well, but i sure as hell don't want the aggro as a pure lol

Good bird should pull it off you after though

Agree on the save mana shield for fever, then next fever use buffs and spam pots, and kite always while keeping him away with fireblast with good use of drain

[WhoIsThis]

Mobs in the Sewers in most cases are not going to be a threat (one possible exception being those green guys in the Catacombs - the mage ones are very powerful and have a ranged attack), especially if they are fried rapidly. Shadow Cave mobs are powerful too, although this is due to their powerful armor - the blue archer ones are powerful in numbers.

Of greater concern are one hit KOs or situations where ranged enemies concentrate on you so fast that you can't even hit the health pot button. Gold Fever's bomb was an example of that - a strength bear at full hp can sometimes die from it.

@Tsarra:

I would not be surprised if pure int mages can actually compete with birds in terms of sustained damage output, especially (with some irony) if there is a bird out there casting thorn wall.
- To begin with, our blessings of might is better than the focus, so we crit more often.
- Next, looking at debuff (mage has nightmare, bird has break armor - break armor is better for one target as I think it can stack).
- Then there are the attacks. Birds have blast shot (combine with scream to make cruel blast), we've got hot flash.
- Birds have other attacks, most notably repulse (pushes target away; very useful for aggro), rooting (does quite a bit of damage, although bosses can't be rooted), and blinding shot (decreases accuracy and in some ways similar to weakness). Thorn wall is the only AOE they have apart from blast shot, although thorn wall does respectable damage and more importantly, roots crowds.
- Mages have drain life (very powerful) and frostbite (our equal I suppose to root, although bird's root is better as it is faster). Our lightning is very nice (3 second recharge, high damage, and armor debuff), especially, if there is a bird around casting thorn wall for us.
- By far the biggest advantage the birds have though is their weapon. They have long range ones that can kite (ex: sentinel shotgun) or shorter range, but very high damage weapons like the Raid Roach Recurve. Mage weapons generally don't do as much damage, although some (like the blast staff) have AOE. Both bird and mage weapons can have procs.

I would not be surprised if our sustained damage is in the same ballpark at all. Of course, mages do have serious disadvantages too:

- NO equal to repulse
- More squishy than birds (mana shield somewhat mitigates this, but you do NOT want to find yourself in a situation where your shield has been depleted)

[Tsarra]

I would not be surprised if pure int mages can actually compete with birds in terms of sustained damage output, especially (with some irony) if there is a bird out there casting thorn wall.
- To begin with, our blessings of might is better than the focus, so we crit more often.
- Next, looking at debuff (mage has nightmare, bird has break armor - break armor is better for one target as I think it can stack).
- Then there are the attacks. Birds have blast shot (combine with scream to make cruel blast), we've got hot flash.
- Birds have other attacks, most notably repulse (pushes target away; very useful for aggro), rooting (does quite a bit of damage, although bosses can't be rooted), and blinding shot (decreases accuracy and in some ways similar to weakness). Thorn wall is the only AOE they have apart from blast shot, although thorn wall does respectable damage and more importantly, roots crowds.
- Mages have drain life (very powerful) and frostbite (our equal I suppose to root, although bird's root is better as it is faster). Our lightning is very nice (3 second recharge, high damage, and armor debuff), especially, if there is a bird around casting thorn wall for us.
- By far the biggest advantage the birds have though is their weapon. They have long range ones that can kite (ex: sentinel shotgun) or shorter range, but very high damage weapons like the Raid Roach Recurve. Mage weapons generally don't do as much damage, although some (like the blast staff) have AOE. Both bird and mage weapons can have procs.

I would not be surprised if our sustained damage is in the same ballpark at all. Of course, mages do have serious disadvantages too:

- NO equal to repulse
- More squishy than birds (mana shield somewhat mitigates this, but you do NOT want to find yourself in a situation where your shield has been depleted)

I don't disagree with any of this; I'd have to run some numbers to see what overall DPS looks like on a Mage vs. a Bird, but I'd wager you're right. I think that a Mage can open a fight with more damage than a bird can, that's for sure.

[WhoIsThis]

AOE is no contest. But we are talking about one target here - a boss. I suppose this is a situation where we've got a team of 5 people, including a pure int (you), perhaps another mage, and 3 other players, at least one of whom is a pure dex bird (not an uncommon team). All players are spamming all of their skills against a boss (whichever is your favourite Gold Fever, King/Queen, etc.) - who can unload the most damage in a sustained period?

I'm advancing the argument that pure int mages, when supported are in the same ballpark. The biggest advantage that birds have is that their weapons DPS is higher (big advantage - weapons DPS is very important against bosses). Mages are bringing in a lot of spells, many of which are more for AOE, but of course still do good damage against a single target.

[Tsarra]

AOE is no contest. But we are talking about one target here - a boss. I suppose this is a situation where we've got a team of 5 people, including a pure int (you), perhaps another mage, and 3 other players, at least one of whom is a pure dex bird (not an uncommon team). All players are spamming all of their skills against a boss (whichever is your favourite Gold Fever, King/Queen, etc.) - who can unload the most damage in a sustained period?

The pure dex bird, by a hair. Probably 10-15% more damage overall than the Int Mage (needs confirmation). That's not a whole lot, and if you throw a few trash mobs in the room, there's no contest -- int mage wins for damage output. I'm 100% in agreement with you on the weapon...this is actually what I think would tip the damage scale in the bird's favor. If we stuck the bird with a comparable damage weapon, the mage would win every time just on skills alone. But the bird's weapon is disgusting.

This whole discussion is REALLY making me want to try either a Dexchantress or an Intbird...or maybe both. Now you've got me REALLY curious.

I think we could probably get our answers to this question by recruiting a couple of people with video capture capabilities. Or just have everyone voice record their damage numbers and we'd compare notes...

[Echelong]

Yep I agree with almost everything in this thread. Also mages are having more armor than birds helps survival and with a wand even more.

PS attackelf Congratz on 56!!! Forgot to say that -_-

[WhoIsThis]

Lol thanks. You as well Echelong.

I just realized - technically speaking, this is not an apple to apples comparison. I have been comparing a mage with a wand and bracer to a bird with a 2-handed weapon. It is the most common configuration. Technically, this should be bird with wing/talon vs mage with wand/bracer and bird with bow/blaster/crossbow with mage with staff. However, it's more common to see the bird with a 2 handed weapon and mage using wand/bracer, so in a way this is fair.

[WhoIsThis]

This whole discussion is REALLY making me want to try either a Dexchantress or an Intbird...or maybe both. Now you've got me REALLY curious.

I think we could probably get our answers to this question by recruiting a couple of people with video capture capabilities. Or just have everyone voice record their damage numbers and we'd compare notes...

I don't know about int on a bird, I've never tried so I can't answer that one.

However, I don't recommend dex-mage at this point. Notice that the new raid roach does not have mana regen. If this is the trend in dex equipment (although the scarab bow does), it does not bode well for dexchantress. You will burn through mana pots. Plus, your spells won't be as powerful because you've allocated points to dex. The pic below used to be me though (back when level cap was 50 and void was one of the best sets in the game). Note that if you want to be dexmage, consider dual speccing to be able to use both dex and int equipment, like a pally, but in dex not int.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q...chantress1.png

The only benefit was the long range of the blaster improving survivability a bit, but less mana shield. Plus, net damage effect was a lot less. You'll find yourself playing a bit more like a bird than a mage.

I later respecced though to pure int where I have stayed (this was taken in January 2011).
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q...Pure%20Int.png

The problem is that now that your spells are weaker, you've got less damage there. Your damage to one target ... now that I think about it, while the weapon DPS is higher, spells are much weaker. You don't have the stopping power of a pure dex bird and the spell damage of a pure int. On the other hand, protection is decent with wing/talon. It's a decent build for PvP too if you know what you are doing.







Getting back on topic, pure ints have a tendency for whatever reason to attract the aggro more so than birds. The question is why this is (possibly greater damage?) and what are the survival strategies? By cruel irony, when a pure int mage has a staff, they are even more likely to get the aggro (even more damage) and even more vulnerable.

[Addiv]

I noticed this while doing Keeper *with birds of the same level* but when I went to Gold Fever *Again, with birds of the same level* I didn't seem to gain any agro at all, the birds got it all.

[WhoIsThis]

I noticed this while doing Keeper *with birds of the same level* but when I went to Gold Fever *Again, with birds of the same level* I didn't seem to gain any agro at all, the birds got it all.

It depends entirely on your build and playstyle. It's unlikely that in the presence of a bird, anything but a pure int will get aggro.

[Fyrce]

Some birds do a lot of damage. Some don't. Sometimes bosses stay with the 1st damager, sometimes they don't. Prob depends on player and roll numbers. When I'm on my bird, I think my birds gets aggro alot. But then when I'm on my mage, I think my mage gets aggro a lot. Either way, I just try to survive. Maybe look for a fluffy bear to run behind :P

[PreciseShield]

Above me, all I'm thinking about is this discussion shouldn't be about if you get aggro or not, but damage output. Bears should only discuss about aggros. D: They seriously are need of tune up!

[LordEspe]

A couple things to add!
1) as a bear, if done right, i find I can hold or at least steal aggro. Although there have been a handful of ppl that I could not do anything but give a brief second Of relief with beckon!!

2) I think birds win with opening damage, in regards to a boss! Birds, along with the high dps and damage, pump Out a large amount of single ,but powerful, attacks in a short period with decent cool downs!

3) I played as a dex/Mage from lvl 50-55! Although the dps and damage was great, it does not compare to the high skill damage and awesome M/S Of my newly respec'd pure int Mage!

A know this was not the original direction of the thread but noticed these things along the way!

[Doubletime]

When talking about gaining boss aggro, I think it is important as to when the damage is being dealt. On entering a boss fight, most of us open up with our most damaging combos. For me, it is a break armor, blinding shot, shatterning scream, thorn wall, blast shot, avian scream combo. With focus, my crit is around 76 while the skills cool down. Lots of damage, but only one true "combo". This will typically get me aggro if done immediately upon entering a room.

However, when a mage follows with a nature strike and face melt, followed by other spell attacks, it is not unusual for the aggro to switch. I think it is because the combo damage raises the individual dps above my sequence and sets a new bar. It then becomes difficult to switch aggro back to another player because that dps bar has been set so high. So it is important for the team to try and keep the boss pinned with correctly timed stomps, repulse shots, and fire blasts until a buffed and raged out bear or focused bird can actually get aggro to switch.

Of course, Royce or someone would actually have to run numbers on this, but it is at least my observation.

[Wushu]

The pure dex bird, by a hair. Probably 10-15% more damage overall than the Int Mage (needs confirmation). That's not a whole lot, and if you throw a few trash mobs in the room, there's no contest -- int mage wins for damage output. I'm 100% in agreement with you on the weapon...this is actually what I think would tip the damage scale in the bird's favor. If we stuck the bird with a comparable damage weapon, the mage would win every time just on skills alone. But the bird's weapon is disgusting.

I'd like to point out that a bird who is built with criticals in mind will often have a 70-75 (buffed) crit value on a single target with its first attack. Combined with a ~180% hit value and a %debuff, the first few hits from a bird spamming skills has the potential for a much higher 1st (or 2nd) damage hit. As you noted, this is in large part based on weapon (and armor).