Mega Mage vs. Shadow - Worth It? Advice?

[noneo]

EDIT: Since I created this post, I have come much more aware of the MM set, and honestly, just more experience with an enchantress. I can assure you that MM is in fact better suited than the Shadow Set. Feel free to read through the posts as they are very informative though.

I am in a bit of a dilemma. I have a set of Shadow currently, and am going to buy the shadow glow stick to complete the set and get the set bonus. I am level 53 at the moment, and and am trying to plan out my gear for when I get to 55. I have spec'd out Mega Mage for a comparison (By looking at the specs, it seems Mega is the only realistic option for a pure Int Mage to upgrade to). And have a few concerns.

First, the price. I know right now I could get a set for 2 - 2.5 mil ish. I know this price will come down as more people get the set and want to sell. I am content with paying for this if it is worth it. Which brings me to my next concern.

Is it worth it?

Here are stats for my build (pure int) wearing a champions Fine Champion's Fine Crystal Ring. I have two options, shadow (using a glow stick of shadows) and Mega mage (using Mega Mage's Gemstone Wand), the following are the results.



The differences:
Mega deals 39 MORE points of Damage (I used the max achievable damage from the weapon's range)
Mega offers 21% LESS Hit%
Mega offers 17 LESS crit
Mega offer 18 LESS H/s (which I am not totally concerned about)
Mega offers 18 MORE M/s (definite positive)
Mega offers 20 MORE Armor (definite positive)

When checking out Physiologic's advanced mechanics thread, he concluded that crit doubled damage approximately crit% of the time. So, when looking at the Shadow set with 17% more crit, I have a 17% better chance of hitting double damage.

Shadow Base Damage: 186
186*2 = 372 damage dealt 25% of the time
So, for 100 hits I will hit 100-25=75 regular hits and 25 crits.
(75*186)+(25*372)= 23250 damage dealt (per 100 hits).

Mega Mage Base Damage:225
225*2 = 450 damage dealt 8% of the time
So, for 100 hits I will hit 100-8=92 regular hits and 8 crits.
(92*225)+(8*450)= 24300 damage dealt (per 100 hits).

Now I will take into consideration my hit percentage.

With the Shadow Set and my attributes, I receive a 112% hit rate. This is 21% greater than that of the Mega Mage set.

For calculations sake, lets assume our opponent has 12% dodge. (this allows us to assume Shadow Set gives us 100% hit rate, and Mega gives 79%, and leaves out all of the messy calculations.)

I take the crit calculated damage of both sets, 23250 for shadow, and 24300 for Mega, and multiply by their hit%.

Shadow = 23250(100%) = 23250 landed damage points
Mega = 24300(79%) = 19197 landed damage points

We have just concluded that the full Shadow set actually does more damage per 100 hits than Mega Mage (the 2.5 million gold set) by a whopping 4053 damage points! (that is 17.4% less than a lvl 50 set)

So, damage is a definite negative about the set. lets look at the rest.

The Mega Mage gives you 20 more Armor (which is a very large amount). the base armor of the Shadow set is 109 (for my build), so these 20 points calculate to be an 18.35% increase in Armor. (When you think about the armor, for arguments sake, we will pretend you were just standing there getting damage dealt to you). You would last 18.35% longer by wearing the Mega Mage set as opposed to the Shadow. However, when you look back at the damage calculations, you will be in a fight for 17.4% longer (due to the fact that you deal less damage) with the Mega Mage set. which means you will only technically see a difference of 0.918% or about a 110 point (only 1 more than Shadow) armor rating. (I know damage and armor aren't directly correlated, especially when facing high level bosses, but when talking about minibosses or packs of mobs where one of their crits won't knock you out in one hit, this idea applies).

The next is M/s. I can't really argue any point about this one since it's pretty cut and dry. The more M/s you have, the faster your mana regenerates. However, at a certain point (unless you are spamming mana shield, which is a very valid point), you won't need it to respawn any faster. I am right on this boundary now. If I use my spells intelligently, I can easily go a whole run without using any mana pots (and I spam my spells for the most part). And if I host a run, I will farm pots while I am using them so it cancels out.

So to end this extremely drawn out post, I would like to hit on the main points.

Shadow Set deals 11.78% more damage
Mega Mage Set provides 0.918% (1 point) more armor
Mega Mage Set provides 18 more M/s (potentially not needed, i.e. mana pots)

What do you guys reccomend?
Spend 2.5 Million for a 1 points of armor, and 18 points of M/s?
Just stick with the Shadow and wait for some new gear?
Wait for improvements on the crafted Mega Mage?

Thanks for reading, look forward to reading your responses.

[Keohike]

hmm interesting, you might have just saved me a couple mil lol. But did u take bonus into considerations. Lvl 55 there are bonus.
Keohike

[noneo]

Yes, I did take into consideration the set bonus for both sets.

Without the bonus stats for Mega Mage, the stats would be:

225 Damage, 1 Speed, 48 Int, 3 Dodge, 91% Hit, 8% Crit, 2 H/s, 39 M/s, 127 Armor

Which would have made it even worse lol.

[WhoIsThis]

Here is a level 56 build with mega mage. I was planning on doing some similar calculations, but you beat me to the punch:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_q...Build%2056.png

Give me a day or so - I will see if I can get the shadow (wand) set pic for posting. I have both; I just lended shadow to a buddy.

Here it is with gem blast and gemstone staff:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q...Build%2056.png

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q...Build%2056.png

[Ayrilana]

Here is a level 56 build with mega mage. I was planning on doing some similar calculations, but you beat me to the punch:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_q...Build%2056.png

Give me a day or so - I will see if I can get the shadow (wand) set pic for posting. I have both; I just lended shadow to a buddy.

Here it is with gem blast and gemstone staff:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q...Build%2056.png

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q...Build%2056.png

Thanks! I was about to bother someone about this. Do you notice any significant difference between gem blast and gemstone staffs?

[WhoIsThis]

Thanks! I was about to bother someone about this. Do you notice any significant difference between gem blast and gemstone staffs?

Gem blast is basically like a more potent version of the Keeper's staff of the Cosmos. Same proc and AOE. Just no crit. I will be releasing a big guide on this at some point. Like the Keeper's staff, you can do additional damage by casting frostbite onto a target and freezing it (in fact, possibly more than the Gemstone).

Gemstone by contrast does slightly higher damage to a single target, slightly better armor, but no AOE.

Both staffs give the same skill damage bonuses. Both staffs will trigger the set bonus as well. I have a PDF comparing the 3 mega mage sets to the shadow sets that I will be releasing. On my to do list are comparisons to the cosmos set and other level 55 sets. Also, please disregard the calculations that the OP has made - as Royce has noted, they are not accurate and not reflective of real game conditions.

[MITSUISUN]

. I have a PDF comparing the 3 mega mage sets to the shadow sets that I will be releasing. On my to do list are comparisons to the cosmos set and other level 55 sets. Also, please disregard the calculations that the OP has made - as Royce has noted, they are not accurate and not reflective of real game conditions.

cant wait to read the awesome guide, elf. thumbs up

[noneo]

What does your vanity item add?

[WhoIsThis]

1 Armor for antlers.

I should mention that I am wearing a ring:

Fine Champion's Fine Crystal Ring Req: Lv 20, 67 Int; 2% Crit, 2 M/s, 4 Damage (from Physiologic's list)

Edit:

It if it helps, this is before patch 1.7 of me in shadow. Add 30 int, the new set bonus, and the ring and you have the answer.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q...Pure%20Int.png

[Royce]

Whatever the numbers may say, there is no comparison in practice. MM outperforms shadow by a very large degree. The damage increase and skill damage increase is significant and the added armor is also very nice. I recommend even BS greens and oranges over shadow gear.

[noneo]

Whatever the numbers may say, there is no comparison in practice. MM outperforms shadow by a very large degree. The damage increase and skill damage increase is significant and the added armor is also very nice. I recommend even BS greens and oranges over shadow gear.

What does it add to skill damage?

I agree that the added Armor is a plus, however I don't see how the MM could deal more damage. I know the theoretical world does not act exactly as the real world, but with such a drastic reduction in damage compared to the Shadow (when taking into consideration Crit and hit%), I don't see how it could be better to any degree of damage.

[WhoIsThis]

What does it add to skill damage?

I agree that the added Armor is a plus, however I don't see how the MM could deal more damage. I know the theoretical world does not act exactly as the real world, but with such a drastic reduction in damage compared to the Shadow (when taking into consideration Crit and hit%), I don't see how it could be better to any degree of damage.

Mega mage adds more skill damage of course - so the base skill damage is higher. When MM crits, it hits even harder than full shadow critical hits, although shadow will crit more often.

Edit: The truth is for mage - skill damage matters more than DPS. For bird, that's different. If such a Mega Mage set existed, I'd willingly trade zero DPS for very high skill damage. Why? Because most damage from int mages comes from your spells. High DPS is more useful against bosses than anything else. I'd probably switch weapons right before a boss fight to maybe staff in most instances (except trash heap where the extra armor is useful).

Another thing - if you can't get mega mage, consider using lowmans or mixing and matching the level 55 sets. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses. For full sets, lowmans is the best of them - even better than the purples.

[noneo]

Mega mage adds more skill damage of course - so the base skill damage is higher. When MM crits, it hits even harder than full shadow critical hits, although shadow will crit more often.

Edit: The truth is for mage - skill damage matters more than DPS. For bird, that's different. If such a Mega Mage set existed, I'd willingly trade zero DPS for very high skill damage. Why? Because most damage from int mages comes from your spells.

This actually makes a lot of sense (I think it is what Royce was trying to say as well). I understand that the higher base damage is an integral part of hitting higher with skills.

Can anyone explain to me the exact correlation between base damage and skill damage? That would be greatly appreciated.

[Moogerfooger]

What does it add to skill damage?

I agree that the added Armor is a plus, however I don't see how the MM could deal more damage. I know the theoretical world does not act exactly as the real world, but with such a drastic reduction in damage compared to the Shadow (when taking into consideration Crit and hit%), I don't see how it could be better to any degree of damage.

Sorry to jump in sorta here, and this may have been mentioned already but I don't see it in a quick scan...but if I recall MM has a far higher base damage by about 40ish over Shadow, which will mean it does as much effective damage, and probably more in the long run, than Shadow....when you take enemy armor into account. Can't just multiply hit%*time*base damage and say "Shadow does way more damage than MM". I tried once on an Archer comparison, and was smacked with the Holy Mackerel of Knowledge because it doesn't take enemy armor values into effect.


I am making up an example (and very simplified not taking crit at all into consideration)

100 hits, MM 79% hit, Shadow 100% (again, making up)

Enemy armor = 50.

MM base damage 220 = (79 successful hits)*(220-50) = 13,430 effective damage.
Shadow base damage 180 = (100 successful hits)*(180-50) = 13,000 effective damage.

Tie, in my over-simplified, no buff/debuff/crit example. Adding Crit in would certainly be a factor in Shadow's favor, but I woul dbet that if one sat down with the numbers, simplified weapon damage numbers would be closer than intially posted. The weapon speeds also play a role to some extent in figuring true damage from weapons, I think Royce or Phys has the real equation for it.

Again, my apologies of this has already been accounted for, just hadn't seen this addressed in the thread yet, and I will take a solid lashing with a wet spaghetti noodle if it has been discussed just something to maybe consider in your considerations on which gear you end up with.

[noneo]

Don't forget base damage Here's a post from Abother thread where I explained all the factors that are involved in skill damage.


As for damage and Crit, I believe your original calculations were flawed in a couple of ways. You use max damage instead of average damage, and didn't take armor into account. If you do that, the DPS of the higher damage weapon will fare much better. Also while Crit is nice and adds up to more damage over time just like added base damage does, it isn't always a clear cut choice over damage. For clearing maps for instance, with lower damage but high Crit, you will tend to overkill a fraction of the time, doing more damage than necessary, and then have weaker attacks and skills the majority of the time, reducing your overall efficiency and effectiveness. The skill damage difference between MM and shadows is pretty huge since the MM wand set includes 46 points of base damage which is added directly to your skill damage. I can get some exact figures when I log on shortly if you want.

Wish I had that post to reference before I made my thread

Also, with my calculations, I did take into consideration the added damage from armor. I incorporated that into my final numbers. Also, like i said earlier, I know my calculations can not be entirely used in the real world. There will be no instance that you will be constantly hit for an infinite amount of time and not die (unless you are in FH with a zombie or something). And I know that what dungeon you are in, the types of mobs, and which boss all have a integral role in determining the type of gear to use (the same variables go into choosing a wand over a staff or vise versa). I was just trying to get a grasp on something that didn't make sense.

Yes, and when you equip gear those skill damages increase accordingly.

And that's up to you to prove

Oh gee, thanks

Sorry to jump in sorta here, and this may have been mentioned already but I don't see it in a quick scan...but if I recall MM has a far higher base damage by about 40ish over Shadow, which will mean it does as much effective damage, and probably more in the long run, than Shadow....when you take enemy armor into account. Can't just multiply hit%*time*base damage and say "Shadow does way more damage than MM". I tried once on an Archer comparison, and was smacked with the Holy Mackerel of Knowledge because it doesn't take enemy armor values into effect.


I am making up an example (and very simplified not taking crit at all into consideration)

100 hits, MM 79% hit, Shadow 100% (again, making up)

Enemy armor = 50.

MM base damage 220 = (79 successful hits)*(220-50) = 13,430 effective damage.
Shadow base damage 180 = (100 successful hits)*(180-50) = 13,000 effective damage.

Tie, in my over-simplified, no buff/debuff/crit example. Adding Crit in would certainly be a factor in Shadow's favor, but I woul dbet that if one sat down with the numbers, simplified weapon damage numbers would be closer than intially posted. The weapon speeds also play a role to some extent in figuring true damage from weapons, I think Royce or Phys has the real equation for it.

Again, my apologies of this has already been accounted for, just hadn't seen this addressed in the thread yet, and I will take a solid lashing with a wet spaghetti noodle if it has been discussed just something to maybe consider in your considerations on which gear you end up with.

I see what you are saying about the armor of mobs, but even when you take that into consideration (forgetting about skill damage) the added crit from Shadow would outperform the MM's crit (if the numbers/odds were 100% accurate).

Also, the speed of both weapons is 1, so that made it a lot easier to calculate.

I love the discussion from everyone! I'm learning a ton, keep it up

[Sky../]

You read about physiologics advanced mechanics thread, i assume you read about his other topic regarding hit% being capped at 85%? (or at least, from his tests, it seemed to be capped at 85%)

Also, the armor increase of 18.35% does not equate to lasting 18.35% longer.

[Physiologic]

I'm only good at archer stuff but here's some input:

Hit% MAY be negligible considering that this value is capped to some degree (I've only tested this in AO3: Close Encounters, so it MAY variable across campaigns as well), as having 100 hit% does not mean you'll hit 100% of the time - you will still MISS (DODGE is completely different, as this is dependent on enemy's DODGE value).

I've been looking at the mage stuff and it looks like its not as clear cut as Archer's lv 50 vs Balefort Sewers equips (in that certain BS gear totally outdoes lv 50 gear). Royce pointed out skill damage is important (something you forgot to mention) but crit IS valuable as well to skill damage (something Royce forgot to mention). 8% crit on MM vs 25% crit on Shadows, while 225 damage on MM and 186 damage on Shadows is quite a hard thing to weigh the pros and cons against. Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets.

Of course, this is all on paper as Royce said. When I tested out lv 50 archer sets, they differed in stats but all performed similarly on the field And I've played with too many mages that sucked with MM gear and mages that were awesome with Shadow gear, and vice versa. But for pure discussion's sake we'll just leave player skill out of it.

[noneo]

Also, the armor increase of 18.35% does not equate to lasting 18.35% longer.

I understand it may not a direct correlation, but having better armor does increase your survival duration. If you have 18.35% better armor, then you can withstand 18.35% more damage points. if the dps of the mobs remain the same this does lead to a correlated survival rate, and in my opinion (which could very easily be wrong) this leads to a 18.35% longer survival time. I'm not sure if this is a 1:1 ratio, but would be intrigued to find out more.

I'm only good at archer stuff but here's some input:

Hit% MAY be negligible considering that this value is capped to some degree (I've only tested this in AO3: Close Encounters, so it MAY variable across campaigns as well), as having 100 hit% does not mean you'll hit 100% of the time - you will still MISS (DODGE is completely different, as this is dependent on enemy's DODGE value).

I've been looking at the mage stuff and it looks like its not as clear cut as Archer's lv 50 vs Balefort Sewers equips (in that certain BS gear totally outdoes lv 50 gear). Royce pointed out skill damage is important (something you forgot to mention) but crit IS valuable as well to skill damage (something Royce forgot to mention). 8% crit on MM vs 25% crit on Shadows, while 225 damage on MM and 186 damage on Shadows is quite a hard thing to weigh the pros and cons against. Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets.

Of course, this is all on paper as Royce said. When I tested out lv 50 archer sets, they differed in stats but all performed similarly on the field And I've played with too many mages that sucked with MM gear and mages that were awesome with Shadow gear, and vice versa. But for pure discussion's sake we'll just leave player skill out of it.

When you talk about DODGE and MISS, DODGE varies on the enemies dodge %, but MISS depends on your hit rate? if so, this does change my calculations quite a bit.

Next, what do you mean by this? "Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets."

Also, leaving player skill out (I know that is the main factor of better playing) was exactly my point. I just wanted to see which set (on paper) would perform better, and I just can't conceptualize (unless my calculations are incorrect) how the MM would be much better besides for better armor, and M/s.

Unless the devs are lying to us, and labeling the gear with false stats!

And I am not trying to prove Royce or anyone wrong, I am simply seeking information on a large purchase, and want to know the mechanics behind said purchase.

[WhoIsThis]

I understand it may not a direct correlation, but having better armor does increase your survival duration. If you have 18.35% better armor, then you can withstand 18.35% more damage points. if the dps of the mobs remain the same this does lead to a correlated survival rate, and in my opinion (which could very easily be wrong) this leads to a 18.35% longer survival time. I'm not sure if this is a 1:1 ratio, but would be intrigued to find out more.

In practice, having that extra armor leads to significantly more survivability than you may think. First, you will take 20 damage less per hit. That is big news for int mages that don't have a lot of hp. Considering how hard enemies hit, that scales dramatically. Furthermore, as mega mage has a higher base spell damage, your heal is stronger when you are hit - good for not just you, but the entire team.

I don't expect you to trust me entirely, but let me say this. I own both sets. I worked long and hard to get my build to 56, then to get full mega mage. I bought every piece except the helm (lucky drop). I use mega mage as my main and for good reason over shadow.

[noneo]

Furthermore, as mega mage has a higher base spell damage..."

How can I find out what this "base spell damage" is? It seems to be the key to unlocking the hidden aspects of the MM set..

I don't expect you to trust me entirely, but let me say this. I own both sets. I worked long and hard to get my build to 56, then to get full mega mage. I bought every piece except the helm (lucky drop). I use mega mage as my main and for good reason over shadow.

I do trust you all, as most of you have probably been playing longer than I. It seems to be the general view that MM is far superior to Shadow (which is what I had expected prior to performing the calculations). I just wanted to mathematically come to a sound conclusion that agrees with how it performs on the field. But, that task may be more difficult than expected.