Mega Mage vs. Shadow - Worth It? Advice?

[noneo]

EDIT: Since I created this post, I have come much more aware of the MM set, and honestly, just more experience with an enchantress. I can assure you that MM is in fact better suited than the Shadow Set. Feel free to read through the posts as they are very informative though.

I am in a bit of a dilemma. I have a set of Shadow currently, and am going to buy the shadow glow stick to complete the set and get the set bonus. I am level 53 at the moment, and and am trying to plan out my gear for when I get to 55. I have spec'd out Mega Mage for a comparison (By looking at the specs, it seems Mega is the only realistic option for a pure Int Mage to upgrade to). And have a few concerns.

First, the price. I know right now I could get a set for 2 - 2.5 mil ish. I know this price will come down as more people get the set and want to sell. I am content with paying for this if it is worth it. Which brings me to my next concern.

Is it worth it?

Here are stats for my build (pure int) wearing a champions Fine Champion's Fine Crystal Ring. I have two options, shadow (using a glow stick of shadows) and Mega mage (using Mega Mage's Gemstone Wand), the following are the results.



The differences:
Mega deals 39 MORE points of Damage (I used the max achievable damage from the weapon's range)
Mega offers 21% LESS Hit%
Mega offers 17 LESS crit
Mega offer 18 LESS H/s (which I am not totally concerned about)
Mega offers 18 MORE M/s (definite positive)
Mega offers 20 MORE Armor (definite positive)

When checking out Physiologic's advanced mechanics thread, he concluded that crit doubled damage approximately crit% of the time. So, when looking at the Shadow set with 17% more crit, I have a 17% better chance of hitting double damage.

Shadow Base Damage: 186
186*2 = 372 damage dealt 25% of the time
So, for 100 hits I will hit 100-25=75 regular hits and 25 crits.
(75*186)+(25*372)= 23250 damage dealt (per 100 hits).

Mega Mage Base Damage:225
225*2 = 450 damage dealt 8% of the time
So, for 100 hits I will hit 100-8=92 regular hits and 8 crits.
(92*225)+(8*450)= 24300 damage dealt (per 100 hits).

Now I will take into consideration my hit percentage.

With the Shadow Set and my attributes, I receive a 112% hit rate. This is 21% greater than that of the Mega Mage set.

For calculations sake, lets assume our opponent has 12% dodge. (this allows us to assume Shadow Set gives us 100% hit rate, and Mega gives 79%, and leaves out all of the messy calculations.)

I take the crit calculated damage of both sets, 23250 for shadow, and 24300 for Mega, and multiply by their hit%.

Shadow = 23250(100%) = 23250 landed damage points
Mega = 24300(79%) = 19197 landed damage points

We have just concluded that the full Shadow set actually does more damage per 100 hits than Mega Mage (the 2.5 million gold set) by a whopping 4053 damage points! (that is 17.4% less than a lvl 50 set)

So, damage is a definite negative about the set. lets look at the rest.

The Mega Mage gives you 20 more Armor (which is a very large amount). the base armor of the Shadow set is 109 (for my build), so these 20 points calculate to be an 18.35% increase in Armor. (When you think about the armor, for arguments sake, we will pretend you were just standing there getting damage dealt to you). You would last 18.35% longer by wearing the Mega Mage set as opposed to the Shadow. However, when you look back at the damage calculations, you will be in a fight for 17.4% longer (due to the fact that you deal less damage) with the Mega Mage set. which means you will only technically see a difference of 0.918% or about a 110 point (only 1 more than Shadow) armor rating. (I know damage and armor aren't directly correlated, especially when facing high level bosses, but when talking about minibosses or packs of mobs where one of their crits won't knock you out in one hit, this idea applies).

The next is M/s. I can't really argue any point about this one since it's pretty cut and dry. The more M/s you have, the faster your mana regenerates. However, at a certain point (unless you are spamming mana shield, which is a very valid point), you won't need it to respawn any faster. I am right on this boundary now. If I use my spells intelligently, I can easily go a whole run without using any mana pots (and I spam my spells for the most part). And if I host a run, I will farm pots while I am using them so it cancels out.

So to end this extremely drawn out post, I would like to hit on the main points.

Shadow Set deals 11.78% more damage
Mega Mage Set provides 0.918% (1 point) more armor
Mega Mage Set provides 18 more M/s (potentially not needed, i.e. mana pots)

What do you guys reccomend?
Spend 2.5 Million for a 1 points of armor, and 18 points of M/s?
Just stick with the Shadow and wait for some new gear?
Wait for improvements on the crafted Mega Mage?

Thanks for reading, look forward to reading your responses.

[Keohike]

hmm interesting, you might have just saved me a couple mil lol. But did u take bonus into considerations. Lvl 55 there are bonus.
Keohike

[noneo]

Yes, I did take into consideration the set bonus for both sets.

Without the bonus stats for Mega Mage, the stats would be:

225 Damage, 1 Speed, 48 Int, 3 Dodge, 91% Hit, 8% Crit, 2 H/s, 39 M/s, 127 Armor

Which would have made it even worse lol.

[WhoIsThis]

Here is a level 56 build with mega mage. I was planning on doing some similar calculations, but you beat me to the punch:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_q...Build%2056.png

Give me a day or so - I will see if I can get the shadow (wand) set pic for posting. I have both; I just lended shadow to a buddy.

Here it is with gem blast and gemstone staff:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q...Build%2056.png

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q...Build%2056.png

[noneo]

What does your vanity item add?

[WhoIsThis]

1 Armor for antlers.

I should mention that I am wearing a ring:

Fine Champion's Fine Crystal Ring Req: Lv 20, 67 Int; 2% Crit, 2 M/s, 4 Damage (from Physiologic's list)

Edit:

It if it helps, this is before patch 1.7 of me in shadow. Add 30 int, the new set bonus, and the ring and you have the answer.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q...Pure%20Int.png

[Royce]

Whatever the numbers may say, there is no comparison in practice. MM outperforms shadow by a very large degree. The damage increase and skill damage increase is significant and the added armor is also very nice. I recommend even BS greens and oranges over shadow gear.

[noneo]

Whatever the numbers may say, there is no comparison in practice. MM outperforms shadow by a very large degree. The damage increase and skill damage increase is significant and the added armor is also very nice. I recommend even BS greens and oranges over shadow gear.

What does it add to skill damage?

I agree that the added Armor is a plus, however I don't see how the MM could deal more damage. I know the theoretical world does not act exactly as the real world, but with such a drastic reduction in damage compared to the Shadow (when taking into consideration Crit and hit%), I don't see how it could be better to any degree of damage.

[Sky../]

You read about physiologics advanced mechanics thread, i assume you read about his other topic regarding hit% being capped at 85%? (or at least, from his tests, it seemed to be capped at 85%)

Also, the armor increase of 18.35% does not equate to lasting 18.35% longer.

[Physiologic]

I'm only good at archer stuff but here's some input:

Hit% MAY be negligible considering that this value is capped to some degree (I've only tested this in AO3: Close Encounters, so it MAY variable across campaigns as well), as having 100 hit% does not mean you'll hit 100% of the time - you will still MISS (DODGE is completely different, as this is dependent on enemy's DODGE value).

I've been looking at the mage stuff and it looks like its not as clear cut as Archer's lv 50 vs Balefort Sewers equips (in that certain BS gear totally outdoes lv 50 gear). Royce pointed out skill damage is important (something you forgot to mention) but crit IS valuable as well to skill damage (something Royce forgot to mention). 8% crit on MM vs 25% crit on Shadows, while 225 damage on MM and 186 damage on Shadows is quite a hard thing to weigh the pros and cons against. Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets.

Of course, this is all on paper as Royce said. When I tested out lv 50 archer sets, they differed in stats but all performed similarly on the field And I've played with too many mages that sucked with MM gear and mages that were awesome with Shadow gear, and vice versa. But for pure discussion's sake we'll just leave player skill out of it.

[Keohike]

So for every 100 hit you do more damage, but if you had more armor you would take less damage, and you can heal more with the added h/M. So im guessing even if you do more dmg per 100 hit you need to take into consideration of the dmg ur taking. So another words while you do more dmg per 100hits you will be dead before you can do 100 hits. I think that why ppl say mega mage is better.

Keohike

[Physiologic]

Regarding whether or not you need dodge/armor: that is completely up to you.

Do you generally have trouble surviving campaign to campaign? Then make dodge/armor values something of importance to you.

Are you awesome at healing and potting fast from campaign to campaign? Then forget dodge/armor, look at damage/crit values.

Don't judge 2 sets based off of their "overall" scores, judge them by looking at values that you feel are relevant to your playing style

[WhoIsThis]

What does it add to skill damage?

I agree that the added Armor is a plus, however I don't see how the MM could deal more damage. I know the theoretical world does not act exactly as the real world, but with such a drastic reduction in damage compared to the Shadow (when taking into consideration Crit and hit%), I don't see how it could be better to any degree of damage.

Mega mage adds more skill damage of course - so the base skill damage is higher. When MM crits, it hits even harder than full shadow critical hits, although shadow will crit more often.

Edit: The truth is for mage - skill damage matters more than DPS. For bird, that's different. If such a Mega Mage set existed, I'd willingly trade zero DPS for very high skill damage. Why? Because most damage from int mages comes from your spells. High DPS is more useful against bosses than anything else. I'd probably switch weapons right before a boss fight to maybe staff in most instances (except trash heap where the extra armor is useful).

Another thing - if you can't get mega mage, consider using lowmans or mixing and matching the level 55 sets. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses. For full sets, lowmans is the best of them - even better than the purples.

[noneo]

Also, the armor increase of 18.35% does not equate to lasting 18.35% longer.

I understand it may not a direct correlation, but having better armor does increase your survival duration. If you have 18.35% better armor, then you can withstand 18.35% more damage points. if the dps of the mobs remain the same this does lead to a correlated survival rate, and in my opinion (which could very easily be wrong) this leads to a 18.35% longer survival time. I'm not sure if this is a 1:1 ratio, but would be intrigued to find out more.

I'm only good at archer stuff but here's some input:

Hit% MAY be negligible considering that this value is capped to some degree (I've only tested this in AO3: Close Encounters, so it MAY variable across campaigns as well), as having 100 hit% does not mean you'll hit 100% of the time - you will still MISS (DODGE is completely different, as this is dependent on enemy's DODGE value).

I've been looking at the mage stuff and it looks like its not as clear cut as Archer's lv 50 vs Balefort Sewers equips (in that certain BS gear totally outdoes lv 50 gear). Royce pointed out skill damage is important (something you forgot to mention) but crit IS valuable as well to skill damage (something Royce forgot to mention). 8% crit on MM vs 25% crit on Shadows, while 225 damage on MM and 186 damage on Shadows is quite a hard thing to weigh the pros and cons against. Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets.

Of course, this is all on paper as Royce said. When I tested out lv 50 archer sets, they differed in stats but all performed similarly on the field And I've played with too many mages that sucked with MM gear and mages that were awesome with Shadow gear, and vice versa. But for pure discussion's sake we'll just leave player skill out of it.

When you talk about DODGE and MISS, DODGE varies on the enemies dodge %, but MISS depends on your hit rate? if so, this does change my calculations quite a bit.

Next, what do you mean by this? "Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets."

Also, leaving player skill out (I know that is the main factor of better playing) was exactly my point. I just wanted to see which set (on paper) would perform better, and I just can't conceptualize (unless my calculations are incorrect) how the MM would be much better besides for better armor, and M/s.

Unless the devs are lying to us, and labeling the gear with false stats!

And I am not trying to prove Royce or anyone wrong, I am simply seeking information on a large purchase, and want to know the mechanics behind said purchase.

[WhoIsThis]

I understand it may not a direct correlation, but having better armor does increase your survival duration. If you have 18.35% better armor, then you can withstand 18.35% more damage points. if the dps of the mobs remain the same this does lead to a correlated survival rate, and in my opinion (which could very easily be wrong) this leads to a 18.35% longer survival time. I'm not sure if this is a 1:1 ratio, but would be intrigued to find out more.

In practice, having that extra armor leads to significantly more survivability than you may think. First, you will take 20 damage less per hit. That is big news for int mages that don't have a lot of hp. Considering how hard enemies hit, that scales dramatically. Furthermore, as mega mage has a higher base spell damage, your heal is stronger when you are hit - good for not just you, but the entire team.

I don't expect you to trust me entirely, but let me say this. I own both sets. I worked long and hard to get my build to 56, then to get full mega mage. I bought every piece except the helm (lucky drop). I use mega mage as my main and for good reason over shadow.

[noneo]

Mega mage adds more skill damage of course - so the base skill damage is higher. When MM crits, it hits even harder than full shadow critical hits, although shadow will crit more often.

Edit: The truth is for mage - skill damage matters more than DPS. For bird, that's different. If such a Mega Mage set existed, I'd willingly trade zero DPS for very high skill damage. Why? Because most damage from int mages comes from your spells.

This actually makes a lot of sense (I think it is what Royce was trying to say as well). I understand that the higher base damage is an integral part of hitting higher with skills.

Can anyone explain to me the exact correlation between base damage and skill damage? That would be greatly appreciated.

[Physiologic]

I understand it may not a direct correlation, but having better armor does increase your survival duration. If you have 18.35% better armor, then you can withstand 18.35% more damage points. if the dps of the mobs remain the same this does lead to a correlated survival rate, and in my opinion (which could very easily be wrong) this leads to a 18.35% longer survival time. I'm not sure if this is a 1:1 ratio, but would be intrigued to find out more.



When you talk about DODGE and MISS, DODGE varies on the enemies dodge %, but MISS depends on your hit rate? if so, this does change my calculations quite a bit.

Next, what do you mean by this? "Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets."

Also, leaving player skill out (I know that is the main factor of better playing) was exactly my point. I just wanted to see which set (on paper) would perform better, and I just can't conceptualize (unless my calculations are incorrect) how the MM would be much better besides for better armor, and M/s.

Unless the devs are lying to us, and labeling the gear with false stats!

And I am not trying to prove Royce or anyone wrong, I am simply seeking information on a large purchase, and want to know the mechanics behind said purchase.

MISS and DODGE work on 2 separate rolls. When you MISS an enemy, that's because your hit% fails (MISS appears on top of your head). If you succeed, then enemy's DODGE roll comes into play. If enemy dodges, the DODGE appears on top of the enemy's head.

And I meant you can calculate skill damage with crit (you've done calculations using normal damage and crit) between sets.

This actually makes a lot of sense (I think it is what Royce was trying to say as well). I understand that the higher base damage is an integral part of hitting higher with skills.

Can anyone explain to me the exact correlation between base damage and skill damage? That would be greatly appreciated.

This varies depending on weapon types and probably weapon speed as well. I have one correlation table for archers only. I believe Royce is doing one for mages.

[noneo]

Furthermore, as mega mage has a higher base spell damage..."

How can I find out what this "base spell damage" is? It seems to be the key to unlocking the hidden aspects of the MM set..

I don't expect you to trust me entirely, but let me say this. I own both sets. I worked long and hard to get my build to 56, then to get full mega mage. I bought every piece except the helm (lucky drop). I use mega mage as my main and for good reason over shadow.

I do trust you all, as most of you have probably been playing longer than I. It seems to be the general view that MM is far superior to Shadow (which is what I had expected prior to performing the calculations). I just wanted to mathematically come to a sound conclusion that agrees with how it performs on the field. But, that task may be more difficult than expected.

[WhoIsThis]

Skill damage is affected by:

1. The rank of your skills (a 6 will do a lot more than 1 and may have secondary effects, such as a bear's beckon - 6 is very nice)
2. Your int score (dex for birds and str for bears)
3. Your equipment (different equipment will add different amounts to your skill damage)

The truth is, you need to test on the field before making a final decision. "Paper" builds often look good and on the field, you discover things (variables if you will) that did not enter into your calculations.

[noneo]

I have one correlation table for archers only. I believe Royce is doing one for mages.

Shoot. I remember looking at this table a week or two ago. I can't believe I forgot about this. I'll recalculate to match this table. Thanks!

And I meant you can calculate skill damage with crit (you've done calculations using normal damage and crit) between sets.

How can I go about doing this? I don't know how to determine the value for skill damage.

EDIT: Are you just talking about the damage that your skill says when you highlight over it? i.e. Level 5 Firestorm gives you 67-117 base points of damage?

If so, wouldn't that further prove that the shadow set, with higher crit, would deal more damage?