Mega Mage vs. Shadow - Worth It? Advice?

[Physiologic]

Shoot. I remember looking at this table a week or two ago. I can't believe I forgot about this. I'll recalculate to match this table. Thanks!



How can I go about doing this? I don't know how to determine the value for skill damage.

This is the work you've done:

When checking out Physiologic's advanced mechanics thread, he concluded that crit doubled damage approximately crit% of the time. So, when looking at the Shadow set with 17% more crit, I have a 17% better chance of hitting double damage.

Shadow Base Damage: 186
186*2 = 372 damage dealt 25% of the time
So, for 100 hits I will hit 100-25=75 regular hits and 25 crits.
(75*186)+(25*372)= 23250 damage dealt (per 100 hits).

Mega Mage Base Damage:225
225*2 = 450 damage dealt 8% of the time
So, for 100 hits I will hit 100-8=92 regular hits and 8 crits.
(92*225)+(8*450)= 24300 damage dealt (per 100 hits).

Instead of looking at base damage, go to your skills menu and look at each individual skill and see how much damage they do. Then do the same exact calculations

[WhoIsThis]

Instead of looking at base damage, go to your skills menu and look at each individual skill and see how much damage they do. Then do the same exact calculations

The OP does not have full mega mage around to do a comparison. In any event, I will be writing a guide on the matter like the one that Mooger, yourself, and Parth have done for birds at some point.

[noneo]

That's a lot of number crunching I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: is anyone a pure int lvl 55 with both a MM set and Shadow set? I would like to see the comparisons to make sure my values are right.

[Physiologic]

The OP does not have full mega mage around to do a comparison. In any event, I will be writing a guide on the matter like the one that Mooger, yourself, and Parth have done for birds at some point.

Oh that's right

I suppose noneo, you can borrow a friend's MM outfit or get this data from anyone else.

[noneo]

If only I had friends that had full MM lol

[WhoIsThis]

One more thing that the OP needs to consider: Procs.

The shadow glow stick doesn't have one. The gemstone wand does. So does the gem blast staff. It shouldn't be a deciding factor, but it should weigh into any decision about effective damage. I'll leave the OP to do their research on what procs the different weapons have.

[noneo]

One more thing that the OP needs to consider: Procs.

The shadow glow stick doesn't have one. The gemstone wand does. So does the gem blast staff.

Thanks, I was looking for proc info and couldn't find any. I'll check Mystic's thread real quick and see if it's there.

[Pharcyde]

Like always, Royce hit it point on.

Higher skill damage
Splash damage from the MM staff
Higher armor

I forgot to look at hit percent and crit though. Only factors that will effect which set to choose before all the listed things above.

After tons of testing, theoretically, mega mage is better then the Keeper set. But my tests show that the keeper set out preforms the mega mage set when it comes into damage. REMEMBER!! I am not saying that Keeper is better, I only took performance in mob clearing into account. Mega still has keeper on its insane armor and higher regeneration. There also seems to be a hidden factor for Keeper. I have no real way to test this, but the keeper set definitely feels like it has a higher range and splash damage effect then the mega mage set.

So I would choose MM, UNLESS Shadow set has a drastically higher hit percent and critical.

[Royce]

Skill damage is affected by:

1. The rank of your skills (a 6 will do a lot more than 1 and may have secondary effects, such as a bear's beckon - 6 is very nice)
2. Your int score (dex for birds and str for bears)
3. Your equipment (different equipment will add different amounts to your skill damage)

The truth is, you need to test on the field before making a final decision. "Paper" builds often look good and on the field, you discover things (variables if you will) that did not enter into your calculations.

Don't forget base damage Here's a post from Abother thread where I explained all the factors that are involved in skill damage.

No, basically here's where skill damage comes from, four factors:

1. Skill rank (1-6)

2. Stat driven skills (Int raises skill damage directly for elves, Str for bears, Dex for birds)

3. Base damage - this is the damage that does not include weapon damage. It comes from attributes, and from gear bonuses other than weapon damage (items like armor or helms that boost damage, set bonus damage increases, etc). 100% if base damage is added to skill damage.

4. Weapon damage - this is the confusing one. A portion of your weapon damage us added to skill damage. Exactly how large that portion is seems to depend on many factors that would seem to include, but not be limited to: Type of weapon (axe, wand, sword, bow, staff, dagger etc.), campaign if origin for the weapon and/or level, 1 vs 2-handedness of the weapon, the weapon's damage itself, and perhaps something random

Edit: and I should note, you can't always tell simple weapon damage from looking at weapon stats. Some weapons seem to provide both a base damage increase and weapon damage and both are just combined in the weapon's stats. All mega Mage items, for instance provide 10 base damage, including weapons, so when you look at the stats of a MM weapon the damage shown is the weapon damage plus 10 base damage .

As for damage and Crit, I believe your original calculations were flawed in a couple of ways. You use max damage instead of average damage, and didn't take armor into account. If you do that, the DPS of the higher damage weapon will fare much better. Also while Crit is nice and adds up to more damage over time just like added base damage does, it isn't always a clear cut choice over damage. For clearing maps for instance, with lower damage but high Crit, you will tend to overkill a fraction of the time, doing more damage than necessary, and then have weaker attacks and skills the majority of the time, reducing your overall efficiency and effectiveness. The skill damage difference between MM and shadows is pretty huge since the MM wand set includes 46 points of base damage which is added directly to your skill damage. I can get some exact figures when I log on shortly if you want.

[Physiologic]

EDIT: Are you just talking about the damage that your skill says when you highlight over it? i.e. Level 5 Firestorm gives you 67-117 base points of damage?

If so, wouldn't that further prove that the shadow set, with higher crit, would deal more damage?

Yes, and when you equip gear those skill damages increase accordingly.

And that's up to you to prove

[Moogerfooger]

What does it add to skill damage?

I agree that the added Armor is a plus, however I don't see how the MM could deal more damage. I know the theoretical world does not act exactly as the real world, but with such a drastic reduction in damage compared to the Shadow (when taking into consideration Crit and hit%), I don't see how it could be better to any degree of damage.

Sorry to jump in sorta here, and this may have been mentioned already but I don't see it in a quick scan...but if I recall MM has a far higher base damage by about 40ish over Shadow, which will mean it does as much effective damage, and probably more in the long run, than Shadow....when you take enemy armor into account. Can't just multiply hit%*time*base damage and say "Shadow does way more damage than MM". I tried once on an Archer comparison, and was smacked with the Holy Mackerel of Knowledge because it doesn't take enemy armor values into effect.


I am making up an example (and very simplified not taking crit at all into consideration)

100 hits, MM 79% hit, Shadow 100% (again, making up)

Enemy armor = 50.

MM base damage 220 = (79 successful hits)*(220-50) = 13,430 effective damage.
Shadow base damage 180 = (100 successful hits)*(180-50) = 13,000 effective damage.

Tie, in my over-simplified, no buff/debuff/crit example. Adding Crit in would certainly be a factor in Shadow's favor, but I woul dbet that if one sat down with the numbers, simplified weapon damage numbers would be closer than intially posted. The weapon speeds also play a role to some extent in figuring true damage from weapons, I think Royce or Phys has the real equation for it.

Again, my apologies of this has already been accounted for, just hadn't seen this addressed in the thread yet, and I will take a solid lashing with a wet spaghetti noodle if it has been discussed just something to maybe consider in your considerations on which gear you end up with.

[noneo]

Like always, Royce hit it point on.

Higher skill damage
Splash damage from the MM staff
Higher armor

I forgot to look at hit percent and crit though. Only factors that will effect which set to choose before all the listed things above.

After tons of testing, theoretically, mega mage is better then the Keeper set. But my tests show that the keeper set out preforms the mega mage set when it comes into damage. REMEMBER!! I am not saying that Keeper is better, I only took performance in mob clearing into account. Mega still has keeper on its insane armor and higher regeneration. There also seems to be a hidden factor for Keeper. I have no real way to test this, but the keeper set definitely feels like it has a higher range and splash damage effect then the mega mage set.

So I would choose MM, UNLESS Shadow set has a drastically higher hit percent and critical.

Isn't 21% less hit%, and 17 less crit a drastic amount? (this is how much less the MM has than Shadow)

[Moogerfooger]

Isn't 21% less hit%, and 17 less crit a drastic amount? (this is how much less the MM has than Shadow)

MM = much higher base damage, which would offset those lesser numbers to some degree ^^

[Royce]

Also note that a pure Int Mage with the MM set will have over 90% Hit which is effectively identical to the higher Hit of shadow gear in PvE (you miss with similar frequency in either set).

[Pharcyde]

Isn't 21% less hit%, and 17 less crit a drastic amount? (this is how much less the MM has than Shadow)

I still haven't seen the crit and hit percent on shadow compared to mega, that is why I am asking. Yeah that is a pretty big difference. So there are so many factors playing into this, that you should decide on these two things.

1.) Survivability - MM is way better for surviving. Its really high skill damage, but at the expense of crit and hit, which lower its mob clearing abilities so much, that keeper outperforms it still.
2.) Overall damage and mob clearing - Shadow will be way better at mob clearing, considering how high the crit and hit is compared to MM. My keeper and MM tests on ability to clear mobs prove that a much higher crit and hit will outperform a higher skill and base damage.

Also note that a pure Int Mage with the MM set will have over 90% Hit which is effectively identical to the higher Hit of shadow gear in PvE (you miss with similar frequency in either set).

Wait, so the hit percents are the same on the two?

[Adapts]

While crit is nice, its icing for mages, we are not birds. Mages don't attack as fast as birds to make most use of crit, and have other responsiblities to the party than full out dmg. At least, only the pro mages realize that. MM is ultimate mage gear right now, the trade off of 17 crit vs. the extra skill dmg and armor is in PVE sewers anway. Prob not worth 2 mil though lol, can get by with greens

[Royce]

I still haven't seen the crit and hit percent on shadow compared to mega, that is why I am asking. Yeah that is a pretty big difference. So there are so many factors playing into this, that you should decide on these two things.

1.) Survivability - MM is way better for surviving. Its really high skill damage, but at the expense of crit and hit, which lower its mob clearing abilities so much, that keeper outperforms it still.
2.) Overall damage and mob clearing - Shadow will be way better at mob clearing, considering how high the crit and hit is compared to MM. My keeper and MM tests on ability to clear mobs prove that a much higher crit and hit will outperform a higher skill and base damage.

Not at all. MM ends up being way better for clearing. As I explained above, clearing is about high sustained damage output over time, so damage not Crit, and the Hit% difference can essentially be ignored for PvE, since without being debuffed, the 90-some percent Hit of MM hits just as often as the shadow set.

[Pharcyde]

While crit is nice, its icing for mages, we are not birds. Mages don't attack as fast as birds to make most use of crit, and have other responsiblities to the party than full out dmg. At least, only the pro mages realize that. MM is ultimate mage gear right now, the trade off of 17 crit vs. the extra skill dmg and armor is in PVE sewers anway. Prob not worth 2 mil though lol, can get by with greens

Crit is actually really important. that 17 difference is a lot of extra damage that will be gone.

[Physiologic]

"Getting by with greens" is an understatement! - non-pinks work just as well as pinks. Hell, I remember a Hideout run in which Moogerfooger and I used FULL CYBER EQUIPS and we STILL finished Hideout in less than 4 minutes. I used to believe in "ultimate equips"...now I only believe in "ultimate skill" and "ultimate party."

[noneo]

Don't forget base damage Here's a post from Abother thread where I explained all the factors that are involved in skill damage.


As for damage and Crit, I believe your original calculations were flawed in a couple of ways. You use max damage instead of average damage, and didn't take armor into account. If you do that, the DPS of the higher damage weapon will fare much better. Also while Crit is nice and adds up to more damage over time just like added base damage does, it isn't always a clear cut choice over damage. For clearing maps for instance, with lower damage but high Crit, you will tend to overkill a fraction of the time, doing more damage than necessary, and then have weaker attacks and skills the majority of the time, reducing your overall efficiency and effectiveness. The skill damage difference between MM and shadows is pretty huge since the MM wand set includes 46 points of base damage which is added directly to your skill damage. I can get some exact figures when I log on shortly if you want.

Wish I had that post to reference before I made my thread

Also, with my calculations, I did take into consideration the added damage from armor. I incorporated that into my final numbers. Also, like i said earlier, I know my calculations can not be entirely used in the real world. There will be no instance that you will be constantly hit for an infinite amount of time and not die (unless you are in FH with a zombie or something). And I know that what dungeon you are in, the types of mobs, and which boss all have a integral role in determining the type of gear to use (the same variables go into choosing a wand over a staff or vise versa). I was just trying to get a grasp on something that didn't make sense.

Yes, and when you equip gear those skill damages increase accordingly.

And that's up to you to prove

Oh gee, thanks

Sorry to jump in sorta here, and this may have been mentioned already but I don't see it in a quick scan...but if I recall MM has a far higher base damage by about 40ish over Shadow, which will mean it does as much effective damage, and probably more in the long run, than Shadow....when you take enemy armor into account. Can't just multiply hit%*time*base damage and say "Shadow does way more damage than MM". I tried once on an Archer comparison, and was smacked with the Holy Mackerel of Knowledge because it doesn't take enemy armor values into effect.


I am making up an example (and very simplified not taking crit at all into consideration)

100 hits, MM 79% hit, Shadow 100% (again, making up)

Enemy armor = 50.

MM base damage 220 = (79 successful hits)*(220-50) = 13,430 effective damage.
Shadow base damage 180 = (100 successful hits)*(180-50) = 13,000 effective damage.

Tie, in my over-simplified, no buff/debuff/crit example. Adding Crit in would certainly be a factor in Shadow's favor, but I woul dbet that if one sat down with the numbers, simplified weapon damage numbers would be closer than intially posted. The weapon speeds also play a role to some extent in figuring true damage from weapons, I think Royce or Phys has the real equation for it.

Again, my apologies of this has already been accounted for, just hadn't seen this addressed in the thread yet, and I will take a solid lashing with a wet spaghetti noodle if it has been discussed just something to maybe consider in your considerations on which gear you end up with.

I see what you are saying about the armor of mobs, but even when you take that into consideration (forgetting about skill damage) the added crit from Shadow would outperform the MM's crit (if the numbers/odds were 100% accurate).

Also, the speed of both weapons is 1, so that made it a lot easier to calculate.

I love the discussion from everyone! I'm learning a ton, keep it up