A big request from an old player. (Read this one, devs.)

[DivineMoustache]

I know what the difference between pre forgotten and pre nerf is.

Good, that way maybe you can understand that the series of double posts that you just posted made no sense.

[ToastyLord]

I don't know why some are still debating about this. I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

Forg/hallo are OP most would say, but they're relatively cheap. That means everyone can get it, right? When something is unbalanced, it means that only a select few can get it, and it gives a big boost. Founders on a lv15 mage would be a good example. If an item everyone owns is really good, you can't say it's unbalanced because everyone owns it, giving everyone (even the poor players) a good fighting chance.

As for the subject that Fbow/hallo requires no skill, one could argue that they're all luck. To a certain degree, everything about PL involves luck, and like DivineMoustache said, forg/hallo doesn't grant range knowledge or stomp timing. Also, seeing as WF items involve procs as well, forg/hallo requires just as much skill.

Removing forg/hallo from PvP would only make it so WF items would be the OP stuff. Only, just the rich would be able to get it, making PvP truly unbalanced.

Hopefully ^ this was simple enough.

[iamtony]

I don't think devs will do anything...
Ppl like doloway and attackmage have made very detailed thoughout threads but still nothing happened from devs...

Also, I doubt more than 1% of the current pl community actually played before 50 cap

I myself started sewers and I still consider myself a rarity among the current endgame populace...

TBH I'm not even sure you played before 50 cap lol

Actually I've been playing since April 8th 2010, 5 days after PL was made.

[iamtony]

Good, that way maybe you can understand that the series of double posts that you just posted made no sense.

I don't have time to re-read everything. This is all opinion based so we both are right I guess. Let's just forget about our recent posts because this is just gonna go back and forth. I don't want this thread being closed because of arguing. I hope you understand where I am coming from. Thanks.

[Electrophiles]

You might as well get rid of the lvl15/25/35 counterparts of WF items as well if you're trying to get rid of paws and fbows entirely. That way it'll be truly balanced as everyone will be using the same items. No need for sbls, toys, and tinsels

pre-forg halloween sucked. everyone used wf twink items; for example tinsel talon+ornament or sbl was super common...not many mage/bird compared to bears as today tho
if you remove wf op items, then it won't even be pre-forg

tbh i think most people twink at low levels just for the feeling of being op. if everyone used those regular pink bows then itwould be quit eboring to pvp

[Burstnuke]

edit: read two posts below

I agree with most of your points except the most important one: Fbows/Paws/Str Packs don't automatically grant noobs skill. An f bow doesn't grant stomp range knowledge. A paw doesn't grant MS timing. The procs of the new generation weapons are often complained about, but they don't really affect more than 1/5 of fights. 4/5 of the time, the person who has more skill will win.

Another thing I have against further nerf of fbows/whatever/etc. is that by removing their usefulness to PvP, you're forcing low level PvP into using either:
a) Platinum exclusive items - when the best items are achievable via in game currency, it becomes something known as Pay to win.
b) Extremely expensive gold items- Fbows/paws cost around 3M, and are considered the best items at low level, and there's a decent enough supply to where pretty much anyone with the gold can find one. This is decently affordable. In comparison, the best items at the levels 10-30 (which is pretty much what an bow nerf would affect) would be narrowed down to Winter Fest SBLs (L15 Bear) and Toys (L15/25 Mage) which cost around 30M and allow people with insane amounts of gold to bottleneck the arena.

The further nerf of these items would also deal a devastating impact to the "balance" and variety that low level actually has. Low level is surprisingly balanced contrary to what many believe, there's just a stigma against it due to the immaturity of some members of the community (which is also silly, every level has immature people.) I'm just going to do a run down of what all would be pretty much eliminated from usefulness in low level PvP if these items are nerfed even more.
Fbows/paws/str packs have granted incredible variety and viability almost all the different classes in low level twinking, for example, L17 Rhinos with fbows can beat many L15 bow bears, and absolute demolish mages. Without an f bow, rhinos would be pretty much eliminated from the equation.

However, I think the true value of your post comes in the Low Level as a Whole section. You hit the nail on the head right there. You don't need to nerf fbows to bring back a sense of fun. Change the culture. Do some FFA in Low Level, as it can get just as exciting as any FFA in high level. If anything, you could remove everything else in your post besides this, and your message would stay the same to me. Want to make low level more appealing? don't blame the fbows. Change the culture.

Low level variety? Don't make me laugh imo. Everyone uses forgs, plat packs, and halloween crap. FFA was almost never happening in lower lvls not even before forgs. And pink 25 toys have 2 more damage 2 more hit then purp, Lol. You were obviously not here before in 26. Actually before forgs, SSC sets that used tank/nuke builds could easily beat toy, yes even lvl 25 toy. people would use the lvl 15 armors and diffrent wings shield and all. And we do need to nerf fbows, Lol. Don't blame the fbows not the culture? Lol. Once fbows came egos started rising as i said, and ffa games were never apparent even before forgs came out. And did you say nerfing these items would make it less balanced? Lol.

Fbows do grant skill to noobs, one can easily proc blind hit which is way overpowred down there and plat packs are plain op same with halloween poop. Oh and low level as a whole is not only lvl 15, sir.

[Burstnuke]

pre-forg halloween sucked. everyone used wf twink items; for example tinsel talon+ornament or sbl was super common...not many mage/bird compared to bears as today tho
if you remove wf op items, then it won't even be pre-forg

tbh i think most people twink at low levels just for the feeling of being op. if everyone used those regular pink bows then itwould be quit eboring to pvp

Id rather have WF items common more then forg trash.

[Burstnuke]

I don't know why some are still debating about this. I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

Forg/hallo are OP most would say, but they're relatively cheap. That means everyone can get it, right? When something is unbalanced, it means that only a select few can get it, and it gives a big boost. Founders on a lv15 mage would be a good example. If an item everyone owns is really good, you can't say it's unbalanced because everyone owns it, giving everyone (even the poor players) a good fighting chance.

As for the subject that Fbow/hallo requires no skill, one could argue that they're all luck. To a certain degree, everything about PL involves luck, and like DivineMoustache said, forg/hallo doesn't grant range knowledge or stomp timing. Also, seeing as WF items involve procs as well, forg/hallo requires just as much skill.

Removing forg/hallo from PvP would only make it so WF items would be the OP stuff. Only, just the rich would be able to get it, making PvP truly unbalanced.

Hopefully ^ this was simple enough.

I hope you do know that lvl 15 isnt in general low lvl pvp. At lvl 10 people can just use candles and duckfoots which are so much more cheaper then Forg trash and halloween. This is what divine and most of you are talking about lvl 15 Lol. Lvl 15 is probably the worst lvl in my opinon, since most egos lie there and most bought there founders there. Lvl 15 is not low levels in general. IMO if forgs, halloween, and plat pack were nerfed, lvl 10, 20-26, 30, 35, and 40 would be 100% better.

[DivineMoustache]

Low level variety? Don't make me laugh imo. Everyone uses forgs, plat packs, and halloween crap. FFA was almost never happening in lower lvls not even before forgs. And pink 25 toys have 2 more damage 2 more hit then purp, Lol. You were obviously not here before in 26. Actually before forgs, SSC sets that used tank/nuke builds could easily beat toy, yes even lvl 25 toy. people would use the lvl 15 armors and diffrent wings shield and all. And we do need to nerf fbows, Lol. Don't blame the fbows not the culture? Lol. Once fbows came egos started rising as i said, and ffa games were never apparent even before forgs came out. And did you say nerfing these items would make it less balanced? Lol.

Fbows do grant skill to noobs, one can easily proc blind hit which is way overpowred down there and plat packs are plain op same with halloween poop.

Lmao, I was waiting for you to use the argument about how everyone only uses the same items such as forgs, plat packs, and halloween packs. What did people use back then? All mages used candle/toy/SSC. All bears used talon/xbow. All birds used toy/2h str weapon. The variety in terms of items hasn't changed. However, the different amount builds that are viable now due to the already nerfed forg bows/paws is a lot higher. You can have str pack paw mages (super tanky at 22 and 15). You can have paw rhinos. You can have paw birds. You can have Fbow birds, and so on and so forth.

You think variety in items is a problem in low levels, yet let me show you the double standards you set for low level in almost every post. Variety in weapons is an issue? That's weird, level 56 is limited to pretty much glyph weapons. Bears use maces. Mages use charming wand. Birds use Xbow. Some mages use mace too. You act as if being limited to fbows/paws/xbows is a bad thing while you sit in your proclaimed "favorite level" and fail to realize that you, too, are limited to pretty much 3 weapons.

Regarding FFA in low level, yes it doesn't happen much, that's why a culture change is required if those who want to FFA, want to come to low level. A nerf in fbows won't achieve anything but bring forth closed-minded people like you who think fbow and ego are huge enough problems in low level.

Regarding balance, I'm not sure what your idea of balance is, but yes removing fbows would decrease the current amount of balance that exists in low level today. Fbows/paws/str packs give multiple classes a chance to compete at every 10-25 level, not just the traditional domination of bear at 10-20 and mage at 22-27. (with the brief exception of birds prenerf bow)

Also, these days, forgotten bows only affect levels 10-25 PvP, out of which L15 is one of the largest PvP levels in the group. Obviously you haven't read many of my posts regarding hell scream bears either , which comes after level 15 (18). Something that seriously annoys me is that after you proceed to tell us not to exclusively make l15 arguments, you proceed to exclusively use L25 examples. You're being quite a hypocrite, given that you discount all of our opinions merely because we used examples from one of the only levels affected by fbows/paws and then you counter that with examples exclusively from only one other level.

At least give low level PvP an honest chance before you go around bashing the community. I'm doing the same to level 56, starting with bear though. You don't see me going around bashing modern L56, because I haven't actually put forth any time into it. I'd ask for you to do the same with low level.

[Assault]

my opinion is... wtf why were plat packs invented? 50 and 40 are ruined becuz of it. All these plat pack bears think their"pro". and pre nerf was so much better... tbh bear str fights are boring. bird and mages are the most fun cuz it takes skill not dodge and crits

[Prosecuted]

Fbows/hallow stuff just make pvp have no skill. People who barely know their ranges jut spam skills and win.

If it were that simple no one would lose

[Burstnuke]

Lmao, I was waiting for you to use the argument about how everyone only uses the same items such as forgs, plat packs, and halloween packs. What did people use back then? All mages used candle/toy/SSC. All bears used talon/xbow. All birds used toy/2h str weapon. The variety in terms of items hasn't changed. However, the different amount builds that are viable now due to the already nerfed forg bows/paws is a lot higher. You can have str pack paw mages (super tanky at 22 and 15). You can have paw rhinos. You can have paw birds. You can have Fbow birds, and so on and so forth.

You think variety in items is a problem in low levels, yet let me show you the double standards you set for low level in almost every post. Variety in weapons is an issue? That's weird, level 56 is limited to pretty much glyph weapons. Bears use maces. Mages use charming wand. Birds use Xbow. Some mages use mace too. You act as if being limited to fbows/paws/xbows is a bad thing while you sit in your proclaimed "favorite level" and fail to realize that you, too, are limited to pretty much 3 weapons.

Regarding FFA in low level, yes it doesn't happen much, that's why a culture change is required if those who want to FFA, want to come to low level. A nerf in fbows won't achieve anything but bring forth closed-minded people like you who think fbow and ego are huge enough problems in low level.

Regarding balance, I'm not sure what your idea of balance is, but yes removing fbows would decrease the current amount of balance that exists in low level today. Fbows/paws/str packs give multiple classes a chance to compete at every 10-25 level, not just the traditional domination of bear at 10-20 and mage at 22-27. (with the brief exception of birds prenerf bow)

Also, these days, forgotten bows only affect levels 10-25 PvP, out of which L15 is one of the largest PvP levels in the group. Obviously you haven't read many of my posts regarding hell scream bears either , which comes after level 15 (18). Something that seriously annoys me is that after you proceed to tell us not to exclusively make l15 arguments, you proceed to exclusively use L25 examples. You're being quite a hypocrite, given that you discount all of our opinions merely because we used examples from one of the only levels affected by fbows/paws and then you counter that with examples exclusively from only one other level.


At least give low level PvP an honest chance before you go around bashing the community. I'm doing the same to level 56, starting with bear though. You don't see me going around bashing modern L56, because I haven't actually put forth any time into it. I'd ask for you to do the same with low level.

Idc about 56, because my main lvl is 61 so bash it all you want IMO. The reason i loved lower levels and didn't do high pvls was variety and now there isn't any. All mages did not use toy, candle, and SSC LMFAO. You obviously know nothing about 26 since you seem to know so well don't you? And it wouldn't remove your so called *balance* we have today Lmfao. Forg has a lot of luck and doesn't take much skill at all. And 10-25 forgs only work? I was talking about halloween, forgs, and plat packs not just forgs hun. Nerfing forgs, halloween, and plat packs would help the levels i said in my last post. All your post are dedicated to lvl 15 and only lvl 15 and you even said it was low level pvp as a whole, Lmao.

And lvl 15 is big because it doesn't take much skill with all the forg trash and founders being bought lol. Just like you said my *favorite* level was 26 but i talked about lower lvl pvp as a whole while you only taked about lvl 15 which is one of the worst levels in my opinon lol. And i thought we were talking about lower lvls not higher lvls, sure it doesn't have variety because theres a thing called *SETS*. Low level pvp did not make more variety in builds lmfao, cannot believe you said that, all mages use tank builds and nuke and mixed builds no longer work at all. AGAIN, lvl 15 isn't the only lower lvl, OK?

Oh! And how much do lvl 10,20,30 winter stuff cost compared to Halloween? Candles? Mint cutters? Oh they cost millions obviously! The only level this would effect is lvl 15 which was always expensive even back then with all the expert and artisan armors. Oh and before you bring up lvl 25 toys, tinsel talons. Demon claw beats tinsel talon, and SSC tanks can beat Toys easily. So whats your counter against nerfing these items? Hm. Il also counter you saying bears only used talons/xbows as they used mint cutters. There was even a special lvl 25 str build that used that lvl 25 axe (forgot what it was called) and it granted a lot of damage and it was viable.

[DivineMoustache]

Idc about 56, because my main lvl is 61 so bash it all you want IMO. The reason i loved lower levels and didn't do high pvls was variety and now there isn't any. All mages did not use toy, candle, and SSC LMFAO. You obviously know nothing about 26 since you seem to know so well don't you? And it wouldn't remove your so called *balance* we have today Lmfao. Forg has a lot of luck and doesn't take much skill at all. And 10-25 forgs only work? I was talking about halloween, forgs, and plat packs not just forgs hun. Nerfing forgs, halloween, and plat packs would help the levels i said in my last post. All your post are dedicated to lvl 15 and only lvl 15 and you even said it was low level pvp as a whole, Lmao.

And lvl 15 is big because it doesn't take much skill with all the forg trash and founders being bought lol. Just like you said my *favorite* level was 26 but i talked about lower lvl pvp as a whole while you only taked about lvl 15 which is one of the worst levels in my opinon lol. And i thought we were talking about lower lvls not higher lvls, sure it doesn't have variety because theres a thing called *SETS*. Low level pvp did not make more variety in builds lmfao, cannot believe you said that, all mages use tank builds and nuke and mixed builds no longer work at all. AGAIN, lvl 15 isn't the only lower lvl, OK?

You obviously contribute nothing to a debate because you don't provide any facts whatsoever to back up your opinion.

All/most mages didn't use toy, candle and SSC as weapons? Explain to me then what they used.

I said Level 15 was the whole of low level? Explain to me where that was stated.

I didn't talk about low level PvP as a whole? My whole paragraph was about low level. I was just using the examples of L15 as actual evidence for my argument, while it appears you don't like to use this thing called evidence.

Also, you have previously stated 56-61 as your favorite levels. Don't be backtracking now.

Also, I accepted that L15 wasn't the only lower level. L10-25 are the only levels affected by fbows now though. You're grasping at straws here. Clear your mind before you engage in any logical debate.

Not once did I say it was low level PvP as a whole. If you think that I said that because i bolded "Low level PvP as a whole" feel free to read the original post, where a section is titled "low level pvp as whole" and I was simply citing that section and accrediting it's truth.

If you think *SETS* justify the fact that there's no weapon variety at high level, feel free to apply that same principle to fbow *SETS*, paw *SETS*. Why do high levels have no "variety" in weapons? Because the *SET* gives a stat advantage. Why do low levels have no "variety" in weapons? Because the fbows give a stat advantage.

[Burstnuke]

You obviously contribute nothing to a debate because you don't provide any facts whatsoever to back up your opinion. All/most mages didn't use toy, candle and SSC as weapons. Explain to me then what they used.

I didn't talk about low level PvP as a whole? My whole paragraph was about low level. I was just using the examples of L15 as actual evidence for my argument, while it appears you don't like to use this thing called evidence.

Also, you have previously stated 56-61 as your favorite levels. Don't be backtracking now.

Also, I accepted that L15 wasn't the only lower level. L10-25 are the only levels affected by fbows now though. You're grasping at straws here. Clear your mind before you engage in any logical debate.

Not once did I say it was low level PvP as a whole. If you think that I said that because i bolded "Low level PvP as a whole" feel free to read the original post, where a section is titled "low level pvp as whole" and I was simply citing that resection and accrediting it's truth.

26 was my favorite pvp level BEFORE pre-forg don't assume you know everything. Don't be backtracking now .
And you didn't respond to me saying that it would SO MUCH cheaper to have those items nerfed, i wonder why. And mages used varities of artisan, socceress, the other i forgot it was called. There was so much variety from crit to regen... now theres trash hallo armors which add no variety. GG tho, unless you can counter the cheaper and more variety, good argument.

Oh and i didn't back up any of my information? Read my post again please, read all my responds to you saying bears using only talon blah blah. And you made no sense called forgs *SETS* as you know what im saying when i say there are sets up there lol. You also called me a hypocrite for using 26 examples yet again, i said before that nerfing plat packs, halloween, and forgs would effect the levels 10,20,25-26,30,35, and 40 a lot, while you base everything on lvl 15 and only lvl 15 lol.

[AppleNoob]

Low level variety? Don't make me laugh imo. Everyone uses forgs, plat packs, and halloween crap. FFA was almost never happening in lower lvls not even before forgs. And pink 25 toys have 2 more damage 2 more hit then purp, Lol. You were obviously not here before in 26. Actually before forgs, SSC sets that used tank/nuke builds could easily beat toy, yes even lvl 25 toy. people would use the lvl 15 armors and diffrent wings shield and all. And we do need to nerf fbows, Lol. Don't blame the fbows not the culture? Lol. Once fbows came egos started rising as i said, and ffa games were never apparent even before forgs came out. And did you say nerfing these items would make it less balanced? Lol.

Fbows do grant skill to noobs, one can easily proc blind hit which is way overpowred down there and plat packs are plain op same with halloween poop. Oh and low level as a whole is not only lvl 15, sir.

Explain to me what 27 has that makes it less dependent on fbows and paws in a detailed list so I can counter you with a list of items for 15 that are not WF or halloween.

[Burstnuke]

Explain to me what 27 has that makes it less dependent on fbows and paws in a detailed list so I can counter you with a list of items for 15 that are not WF or halloween.

What? Im talking about pre-forg i hate *27*'s variety right now, read again before questioning something, hun.

[DivineMoustache]

Good, now that you're using actual evidence for your posts, allow me dissect this junk.

Oh! And how much do lvl 10,20,30 winter stuff cost compared to Halloween? Candles? Mint cutters? Oh they cost millions obviously! The only level this would effect is lvl 15 which was always expensive even back then with all the expert and artisan armors.

I'll accept this as a valid point. The levels 10 and 20 do exist. However, the main issue I have with this is that the majority of low levelers affected by fbows are concentrated at 15, and 25. In this case, the majority should be concerned more than the minority, especially since there's not really any raging problems against fbows at level 10/20.

Oh and before you bring up lvl 25 toys, tinsel talons. Demon claw beats tinsel talon, and SSC tanks can beat Toys easily. So whats your counter against nerfing these items?

That argument has nothing to do with L25 toys. That's like saying forgotten bows aren't overpowered because an SSC tank can beat a forgotten staff. Pretty sure even you can agree that argument is ridiculous.
Secondly, an SSC tank cannot beat a toy user when both users are under the same conditions. Hell, I barely played L26, and if you make an SSC tank and I fight you with a toy man wand, I'm pretty sure that you'd get beaten by a purple toy.

Hm. Il also counter you saying bears only used talons/xbows as they used mint cutters. There was even a special lvl 25 str build that used that lvl 25 axe (forgot what it was called) and it granted a lot of damage and it was viable.

Yeah, bears these days can also use mint cutters, str plat packs, fbows, paws, talons, xbows, forg staffs, etc. But there's no denying that good bear with a talon/xbow would have beaten a good bear with a mint cutter. Variety at the top of the chain is what's the issue.

[Burstnuke]

Good, now that you're using actual evidence for your posts, allow me dissect this junk.



I'll accept this as a valid point. The levels 10 and 20 do exist. However, the main issue I have with this is that the majority of low levelers affected by fbows are concentrated at 15, and 25. In this case, the majority should be concerned more than the minority, especially since there's not really any raging problems against fbows at level 10/20.



That argument has nothing to do with L25 toys. That's like saying forgotten bows aren't overpowered because an SSC tank can beat a forgotten staff. Pretty sure even you can agree that argument is ridiculous.
Secondly, an SSC tank cannot beat a toy user when both users are under the same conditions. Hell, I barely played L26, and if you make an SSC tank and I fight you with a toy man wand, I'm pretty sure that you'd get beaten by a purple toy.



Yeah, bears these days can also use mint cutters, str plat packs, fbows, paws, talons, xbows, forg staffs, etc. But there's no denying that good bear with a talon/xbow would have beaten a good bear with a mint cutter. Variety at the top of the chain is what's the issue.

So allow me dissect this as well.

Lol, so now its what weapons can be used to beat other weapons now? Bears these days cannot use mint cutters, trust me ive tried it, they cannot use xbows since forg beats it right away, forg staffs lol, paws again no variety, fbows poop, str plat packs again no variety. Oh and that middle part i said in case you had anything to say. So you had no counter against mages variety i got that, gf, and none vs my answer to you about it being WAY cheaper then forgs, halloween poop. So the only thing you can do now is say that my middle point had nothing to do with this at all lol. And did you say you could beat me with lvl 25 purp wand while i use SSC Tank? Good luck man, oh and you have no evidence versus this as well, so you aren't backing up your information as well so i could call you a hypocrite as well, right? You said you barely played 26 so you don't have the information.

Welp, gg. Oh and about levels 30-40 if there were no halloween we would be sticking with the awesome original stuff which costs how much at lvl 30, 35?, 40??? Lol. So much more cheaper with them being all nerfed, just face it.

[DivineMoustache]

I respond too slowly to figure out wtf you mean in your next edits.

26 was my favorite pvp level BEFORE pre-forg don't assume you know everything. Don't be backtracking now .

In it's current state, L56-61 is your favorite levels. Your argument has nothing to do with the context I used your "favorite" level in.

And you didn't respond to me saying that it would SO MUCH cheaper to have those items nerfed, i wonder why. And mages used varities of artisan, socceress, the other i forgot it was called. There was so much variety from crit to regen... now theres trash hallo armors which add no variety. GG tho, unless you can counter the cheaper and more variety, good argument.

Mages still use artisan/SSC/alch for regen. Also, It wouldn't be much cheaper at all. L15/25 would be bottlenecked. Also, I don't really understand wtf your last sentence means. Clarify please.

Oh and i didn't back up any of my information? Read my post again please, read all my responds to you saying bears using only talon blah blah. And you made no sense called forgs *SETS* as you know what im saying when i say there are sets up there lol. You also called me a hypocrite for using 26 examples yet again, i said before that nerfing plat packs, halloween, and forgs would effect the levels 10,20,25-26,30,35, and 40 a lot, while you base everything on lvl 15 and only lvl 15 lol.

Yeah, you edited your evidence after I posted. I responded to that already.

And no, calling a forgotten bow a set is pretty valid. Think about it. What exactly is the point of people using sets up there? Because each popularly used set gives a "set bonus" -- a stat advantage, if you will. Saying that the stat advantage of Fbows is limiting the variety of item choices at twinking is equivalent of me comparing the stat advantages of sets limiting the variety of item choices at...levels that have sets.

Lol, so now its what weapons can be used to beat other weapons now? Bears these days cannot use mint cutters, trust me ive tried it, they cannot use xbows since forg beats it right away, forg staffs lol, paws again no variety, fbows poop, str plat packs again no variety. Oh and that middle part i said in case you had anything to say. So you had no counter against mages variety i got that, gf, and none vs my answer to you about it being WAY cheaper then forgs, halloween poop. So the only thing you can do now is say that my middle point had nothing to do with this at all lol. And did you say you could beat me with lvl 25 purp wand while i use SSC Tank? Good luck man, oh and you have no evidence versus this as well, so you aren't backing up your information as well so i could call you a hypocrite as well, right?

Welp, gg. Oh and about levels 30-40 if there were no halloween we would be sticking with the awesome original stuff which costs how much at lvl 30, 35?, 40??? Lol. So much more cheaper with them being all nerfed, just face it.

Actually, mint cutters are pretty viable at level 30-40. But viability isn't variety. Anybody can USE items. But can they work against the best? That's variety.

And no, I was pretty much challenging you to a 27 SSC Tank vs Toy fight. I'm willing to search for the evidence regarding that argument.

As to the rest of that post, it's giving me a headache. I'd request that you format it better and clarify your thoughts. You're just typing your thoughts randomly without any organization and it's pretty hard to dissect what you mean from that.

And yeah, your middle post had nothing to do with anything at all, lol. Toy would become the most expensive , and strongest weapon at level 25 for the best class at level 25. Just because a demon claw can beat a tinsel talon holds as much relevance to that argument as the fact that an SSC tank can beat a forgotten staff user.

You also seem to forget that those original items are so cheap because there is no longer a demand for them. A basic fact of economics is that supply and demand governs prices (unless in the case of regulation/price fixing.)



Anyway, I'm about to go to bed.

[iRandom]

Good, now that you're using actual evidence for your posts, allow me dissect this junk.



1. I'll accept this as a valid point. The levels 10 and 20 do exist. However, the main issue I have with this is that the majority of low levelers affected by fbows are concentrated at 15, and 25. In this case, the majority should be concerned more than the minority, especially since there's not really any raging problems against fbows at level 10/20.



2. That argument has nothing to do with L25 toys. That's like saying forgotten bows aren't overpowered because an SSC tank can beat a forgotten staff. Pretty sure even you can agree that argument is ridiculous.
Secondly, an SSC tank cannot beat a toy user when both users are under the same conditions. Hell, I barely played L26, and if you make an SSC tank and I fight you with a toy man wand, I'm pretty sure that you'd get beaten by a purple toy.



3. Yeah, bears these days can also use mint cutters, str plat packs, fbows, paws, talons, xbows, forg staffs, etc. But there's no denying that good bear with a talon/xbow would have beaten a good bear with a mint cutter. Variety at the top of the chain is what's the issue.

Lol, so now its what weapons can be used to beat other weapons now? Bears these days cannot use mint cutters, trust me ive tried it, they cannot use xbows since forg beats it right away, forg staffs lol, paws again no variety, fbows poop, str plat packs again no variety. Oh and that middle part i said in case you had anything to say. So you had no counter against mages variety i got that, gf, and none vs my answer to you about it being WAY cheaper then forgs, halloween poop. So the only thing you can do now is say that my middle point had nothing to do with this at all lol. And did you say you could beat me with lvl 25 purp wand while i use SSC Tank? Good luck man, oh and you have no evidence versus this as well, so you aren't backing up your information as well so i could call you a hypocrite as well, right?

Welp, gg. Oh and about levels 30-40 if there were no halloween we would be sticking with the awesome original stuff which costs how much at lvl 30, 35?, 40??? Lol. So much more cheaper with them being all nerfed, just face it.

1. Agreed.

2. True.

3. [Duh]

[(*1*)] Bears these days can use Mint Cutters. Trust me I've done (just avoid other bears!).

[(*2*)] They can use x-bows. Read Kite & Tree.

[(*3*)] Legendary awesome original stuff (voodoo yay!) would be more expensive with hallo and forg being nerfed. It does not make any sense to nerf the Legendary Awesome Original Stuff (LAOS).

hi