A big request from an old player. (Read this one, devs.)

[DivineMoustache]

Fbows/hallow stuff just make pvp have no skill. People who barely know their ranges jut spam skills and win.

That's as far from the truth as I'd ever hope to see from someone who is a premier low leveler. I doubt you have ever been crushed by anybody who has spammed skills against you. First of all, there's not that many skills to spam at low level anyway. Second of all, you can't win by spamming skills in a random order at low level.

Except HS bear, where the first HS matters but if you don't kill them fast enough, they can get lucky and HS you, while you miss your second HS.

[iamtony]

That's as far from the truth as I'd ever hope to see from someone who is a premier low leveler. I doubt you have ever been crushed by anybody who has spammed skills against you. First of all, there's not that many skills to spam at low level anyway. Second of all, you can't win by spamming skills in a random order at low level.

Except HS bear, where the first HS matters but if you don't kill them fast enough, they can get lucky and HS you, while you miss your second HS.

Use a demon claw and go against an fbow bear and you'll know what I mean. By spamming skills that's obviously exaggerated, which you know that.

[DivineMoustache]

Use a demon claw and go against an fbow bear and you'll know what I mean. By spamming skills that's obviously exaggerated, which you know that.

Use an fbow against them then lol. If you're judging fbows by the fact that you try to use worse weapons against people who use fbows, that's a pretty huge fallacy. It's like complaining that a voodoo pin is OP because you can't beat them with your shivering talon.

I haven't played much of 25 bear to be honest, I do L22 bow bear and L20 talon/fbow bear. At Level 20 you can easily beat an bow bear using a talon. Im guessing at L25 the smash combo neutralizes high HS to start with though. If you use an f bow against another f bow, more than likely that you/the more skill person will win against someone else.

[iamtony]

Use an fbow against them then lol. If you're judging fbows by the fact that you try to use worse weapons against people who use fbows, that's a pretty huge fallacy. It's like complaining that a voodoo pin is OP because you can't beat them with your shivering talon.

I haven't played much of 25 bear to be honest, I do L22 bow bear and L20 talon/fbow bear. At Level 20 you can easily beat an bow bear using a talon. Im guessing at L25 the smash combo neutralizes high HS to start with though. If you use an f bow against another f bow, more than likely that you/the more skill person will win against someone else.

Talon and fbows are the same level while voodoo pins and shivering are not.

[D-:]

edit: read two posts below

I agree with most of your points except the most important one: Fbows/Paws/Str Packs don't automatically grant noobs skill. An f bow doesn't grant stomp range knowledge. A paw doesn't grant MS timing. The procs of the new generation weapons are often complained about, but they don't really affect more than 1/5 of fights. 4/5 of the time, the person who has more skill will win.

Another thing I have against further nerf of fbows/whatever/etc. is that by removing their usefulness to PvP, you're forcing low level PvP into using either:
a) Platinum exclusive items - when the best items are achievable via in game currency, it becomes something known as Pay to win.
b) Extremely expensive gold items- Fbows/paws cost around 3M, and are considered the best items at low level, and there's a decent enough supply to where pretty much anyone with the gold can find one. This is decently affordable. In comparison, the best items at the levels 10-30 (which is pretty much what an bow nerf would affect) would be narrowed down to Winter Fest SBLs (L15 Bear) and Toys (L15/25 Mage) which cost around 30M and allow people with insane amounts of gold to bottleneck the arena.

The further nerf of these items would also deal a devastating impact to the "balance" and variety that low level actually has. Low level is surprisingly balanced contrary to what many believe, there's just a stigma against it due to the immaturity of some members of the community (which is also silly, every level has immature people.) I'm just going to do a run down of what all would be pretty much eliminated from usefulness in low level PvP if these items are nerfed even more.
Fbows/paws/str packs have granted incredible variety and viability almost all the different classes in low level twinking, for example, L17 Rhinos with fbows can beat many L15 bow bears, and absolute demolish mages. Without an f bow, rhinos would be pretty much eliminated from the equation.

However, I think the true value of your post comes in the Low Level as a Whole section. You hit the nail on the head right there. You don't need to nerf fbows to bring back a sense of fun. Change the culture. Do some FFA in Low Level, as it can get just as exciting as any FFA in high level. If anything, you could remove everything else in your post besides this, and your message would stay the same to me. Want to make low level more appealing? don't blame the fbows. Change the culture.

I honestly wish I could agree with your post.

By a change of culture I meant an entirely new culture of no fbow and Halloween.
Thanks for the reply though, i enjoyed how in depth you went with it.

[DivineMoustache]

Talon and fbows are the same level while voodoo pins and shivering are not.

fbow is decidedly better than demon claw just like a voodoo pin is to a shivering. The fact of the matter is, you're using an item that's pretty much worse than an fbow in order to say that a noob with an fbow can beat a pro. Obviously there is a chance of that happening when the pro is using an item with 30 less damage per hit.

I honestly wish I could agree with your post.

By a change of culture I meant an entirely new culture of no fbow and Halloween.
Thanks for the reply though, i enjoyed how in depth you went with it.

Yeah, low level is something I'm pretty passionate about in game.

Not sure how getting rid of items will make people FFA more.

[iamtony]

fbow is decidedly better than demon claw just like a voodoo pin is to a shivering. The fact of the matter is, you're using an item that's pretty much worse than an fbow in order to say that a noob with an fbow can beat a pro. Obviously there is a chance of that happening when the pro is using an item with 30 less damage per hit.



Yeah, low level is something I'm pretty passionate about in game.

Not sure how getting rid of items will make people FFA more.

Alrigh lets just say we're both right. Going nowhere :/.

[Jig]

Asking for a lot after devs saying no more updates lol but worth a shot

[Xyzther]

Lol, you obviously weren't here when a bigger thing happened. When forgs were released it killed low level pvp, and from there it went downhill.

-There was no Variety between weapons just forgs.

-Halloween came out and it had op stats for some dumb reason which made lower lvl pvp worser.

-Egos started rising as all thought they were good with these op weapons which even brought more luck to lower lvls.

-Before forgs there was variety of builds as well.

Before forgs lower levels were so fun, if forgs never happened i think i would have still pvped down there.. Before forgs everyone tried varietes of Toys and SSC sets. Toys weren't overpowered vs SSC sets and both faired well against each other.
Back then you could choose from nuke, tank, or mixed build. All builds were viable if they focused on their liking (tank, nuke, mixed). This was lvl 26 for me before forgs. I miss it so much IMO, and if this idea were implemented it would bring joy back to lower lvls.

And, before the great nerf lower lvl pvp was still bad, there were a lot of egos lol.

love your sig

[iRandom]

edit: read two posts below

I agree with most of your points except the most important one: Fbows/Paws/Str Packs don't automatically grant noobs skill. An f bow doesn't grant stomp range knowledge. A paw doesn't grant MS timing. The procs of the new generation weapons are often complained about, but they don't really affect more than 1/5 of fights. 4/5 of the time, the person who has more skill will win.

Another thing I have against further nerf of fbows/whatever/etc. is that by removing their usefulness to PvP, you're forcing low level PvP into using either:
a) Platinum exclusive items - when the best items are achievable via in game currency, it becomes something known as Pay to win.
b) Extremely expensive gold items- Fbows/paws cost around 3M, and are considered the best items at low level, and there's a decent enough supply to where pretty much anyone with the gold can find one. This is decently affordable. In comparison, the best items at the levels 10-30 (which is pretty much what an bow nerf would affect) would be narrowed down to Winter Fest SBLs (L15 Bear) and Toys (L15/25 Mage) which cost around 30M and allow people with insane amounts of gold to bottleneck the arena.

The further nerf of these items would also deal a devastating impact to the "balance" and variety that low level actually has. Low level is surprisingly balanced contrary to what many believe, there's just a stigma against it due to the immaturity of some members of the community (which is also silly, every level has immature people.) I'm just going to do a run down of what all would be pretty much eliminated from usefulness in low level PvP if these items are nerfed even more.
Fbows/paws/str packs have granted incredible variety and viability almost all the different classes in low level twinking, for example, L17 Rhinos with fbows can beat many L15 bow bears, and absolute demolish mages. Without an f bow, rhinos would be pretty much eliminated from the equation.

However, I think the true value of your post comes in the Low Level as a Whole section. You hit the nail on the head right there. You don't need to nerf fbows to bring back a sense of fun. Change the culture. Do some FFA in Low Level, as it can get just as exciting as any FFA in high level. If anything, you could remove everything else in your post besides this, and your message would stay the same to me. Want to make low level more appealing? don't blame the fbows. Change the culture.

Dont blame the fbows! Make a level 15 bear with no vanities with expert and hallo using a purp forg! then rush the opest looking bear in the room!!!! yayy

[XghostzX]

I don't play twinks normally, so I can't give much input. I do know, however, that I miss playing my 35 voodoo mage. Those pesky items they implemented really ruined the gameplay and class-balance... plus, the voodoo mage community was closely-knit. I think it would kindle a genuinely better community without some of these insane stats.

[ToastyLord]

I agree with divine moustache.

1, this would make PL a lot more 'pay to win'
2, no more updates
3, really? Can you just "spam skills and win" with hallo/forg? Remember, if they're really OP, everyone will be able to get it. That means the pros as well as the nubs will be able to get hallo/forg, so generally the pros will win either way
4, like divine said, forg/hallo doesn't grant stomp range knowledge or timing.
5, why would you wanna go back to the "old days"? Do you really wanna move backwards ?! I don't wanna know why.
6, no more updates, stop dreaming

And as a big low level pvper, I would definitely not be happy with this update, but that's just my opionin

[yousocrazy]

you are all exercising your fingers for no reason. there will be no balance or rebalance or even any thought from the development team about this thread. sadly these are all just pipe dreams and my friends, it's time to wake up.

[Jig]

you are all exercising your fingers for no reason. there will be no balance or rebalance or even any thought from the development team about this thread. sadly these are all just pipe dreams and my friends, it's time to wake up.

The thread created can do what he wants, if Sts wants to keep PL DL SL forums online, then why not try anyways...

Yes it most likely seems they won't listen anymore they said no more updates, things can change, not saying it will, it's just a good thing to think like this.

[D-:]

fbow is decidedly better than demon claw just like a voodoo pin is to a shivering. The fact of the matter is, you're using an item that's pretty much worse than an fbow in order to say that a noob with an fbow can beat a pro. Obviously there is a chance of that happening when the pro is using an item with 30 less damage per hit.


Yeah, low level is something I'm pretty passionate about in game.

Not sure how getting rid of items will make people FFA more.

Never said people should FFA more after nerf, but most people in high level pvp complain about the lack of it. I was just saying as a general idea for people to get out of just "go" fights and never doing FFA.

I don't play twinks normally, so I can't give much input. I do know, however, that I miss playing my 35 voodoo mage. Those pesky items they implemented really ruined the gameplay and class-balance... plus, the voodoo mage community was closely-knit. I think it would kindle a genuinely better community without some of these insane stats.

Thanks, this is how I saw it as well.

I agree with divine moustache.

1, this would make PL a lot more 'pay to win'
2, no more updates
3, really? Can you just "spam skills and win" with hallo/forg? Remember, if they're really OP, everyone will be able to get it. That means the pros as well as the nubs will be able to get hallo/forg, so generally the pros will win either way
4, like divine said, forg/hallo doesn't grant stomp range knowledge or timing.
5, why would you wanna go back to the "old days"? Do you really wanna move backwards ?! I don't wanna know why.
6, no more updates, stop dreaming

And as a big low level pvper, I would definitely not be happy with this update, but that's just my opionin

1.) It may be, but before forgotten items came out, people had no problem with others using a dex plat pack at 10-20 from my experience.
2.) Things can change, simply put.
3.) Both pros and noobs with a bit of gold can grab a purple forgotten item. These forgotten items simply can outclass WF items, (Toymans in particular.)
4) Well, either way, it helps you have a LOT more chance of winning by using the items.
5.) LMAO. You're obviously a newer player. You know nothing about the old days.
6.) You already said this, why say it again? To emphasize it? Yeah, ok. We get it.

[GiveMeWings]

I agree with all, except maybe with fbows:yeh they are op in almost all level to 30, but I won´t nerf them so they could be useless, maybe I would nerf some of them,but keeping other levels like 15 or 20, (idk which levels) some levels which fbow are still good. Like in all pvp levels, there are some gear which is the best, so fbows could be one maybe a specific pvp level.

[bearuang]

1. well alot of ppl spent times to afford those items with worth gold now because irs a good tdm weapon, so if its happen alot of ppl will be bankrupt
2. whats make it diffrent now? everyone could afford fbow, if you say a nub with fbow spam skills could easy kill, how about old player with fbow?
3. see from the pov where 18 bear could kill 22 bear because fbow (both got fbow) its also balance pvp, imagine if there are no fbow they will farm lower level so hard
4. this is something more complicated than endgamers want 2pc to be craftable or asking for 3pc, so i think they will not do any act to this
5. why its so hard to make ppl understand that they will give no more update..


@divine vodoo its 35 and shivering its 30, but demon its 25 and also there is a lv 25fbow

[iamtony]

1. well alot of ppl spent times to afford those items with worth gold now because irs a good tdm weapon, so if its happen alot of ppl will be bankrupt
2. whats make it diffrent now? everyone could afford fbow, if you say a nub with fbow spam skills could easy kill, how about old player with fbow?
3. see from the pov where 18 bear could kill 22 bear because fbow (both got fbow) its also balance pvp, imagine if there are no fbow they will farm lower level so hard
4. this is something more complicated than endgamers want 2pc to be craftable or asking for 3pc, so i think they will not do any act to this
5. why its so hard to make ppl understand that they will give no more update..


@divine vodoo its 35 and shivering its 30, but demon its 25 and also there is a lv 25fbow

When I use Fbow against other FBOW Bears it's just no fun because I win 49/50 fights with it. Demon claw makes it not as luck based. By spamming skills I didn't mean that literally. I mean people can just use beckon hs cb stomp sms and one or the other was usually dead by then. Fights that quick aren't based off of skill.

[iamtony]

That's another reason I dislike Levels above like 50 because the insane dodges make it luck based.

[D-:]

1. well alot of ppl spent times to afford those items with worth gold now because irs a good tdm weapon, so if its happen alot of ppl will be bankrupt
2. whats make it diffrent now? everyone could afford fbow, if you say a nub with fbow spam skills could easy kill, how about old player with fbow?
3. see from the pov where 18 bear could kill 22 bear because fbow (both got fbow) its also balance pvp, imagine if there are no fbow they will farm lower level so hard
4. this is something more complicated than endgamers want 2pc to be craftable or asking for 3pc, so i think they will not do any act to this
5. why its so hard to make ppl understand that they will give no more update..


@divine vodoo its 35 and shivering its 30, but demon its 25 and also there is a lv 25fbow

Listen to iamtony.