Graphing the Curve

[Jexetta]

As someone who has played AL since the very beginning, it's been brought up over and over the level of frustration over the turn around time for new content. Of course, with any game, the level of content expansion tends to be developed slower and slower the older the game becomes. And this only makes sense as the time it takes to upgrade a game with a whole new skin/interface, new skill systems is probably entirely a waste of time if you want to keep the game looking current and grabbing new players. With today's mentality, people tend to throw out the old quicker, and just grab the new shiny thing on the horizon. This is just the current zeitgeist of the era with almost all things and the response (especially with mobile gaming) is to come out with a new product.

The way this ties into the current issues with arcane legends is an increasingly long time for new things to come to your loving game. It would be foolish to ignore history - This has happened with virtually every Spacetime game and is for the prosperity of the company as a whole.

Much has been talked about transparency, but sometimes it's wise to back up and look at the larger picture. One of my favorite posters was the doccyness, and with all this complaining going on about virtually everything, I was reminded of his useful graphs about major content releases. I do not want to take away from the critiques about glitches in the game and problems with the way operates, it definitely has warrant.

Below (I believe this is correct) is the release dates of major expansions :

AL's Release (11.02.2012) > The Dead City (12.19.2012) > 1 Month & 17 Days
The Dead City (12.19.2012) > The Kraken Isles (02.21.2013) > 2 Months & 2 Days
The Kraken Isles (02.21.2013) > The Battle for Nordr (04.19.2013) > 1 Month & 29 Days
The Battle for Nordr (04.19.2013) > Realm of Shadows: Shuyal (08.29.13) > 4 Months & 10 Days
Realm of Shadows: Shuyal (08.29.13) > The Dragon Enclave (03.13.14) > 6 Months & 13 Days
The Dragon Enclave (03.13.14) > Today (03.17.15) > 1 Year & 4 days.

I do understand that there have been many mini events which is not taken into account. However, many of these newer events are simple re-skins of old events with minor re-colors. This is like Nintendo releasing Super Mario World on every new system and attempting to squeeze every ounce of $ out of older games. It is smart, but after a time it begins to become tiresome, and disheartening to older players.

As you'll notice - the time between expansions has almost been doubling since Nordr. That is not good news, and unfortunately if you look at other legends games, it will probably start to mimic the path those games have taken as well.

Below, I've adjusted Docdobig's graph to add another layer of clarity for those who like to skim posts.



I hope the above puts into perspective reasons why players can feel so frustrated. In retrospect, the planar tombs might be classified to some as a major expansion, I do not see this as a major expansion. Regardless, the gaps between new major content is huge and wholly frustrating. Also, if viewed on a PC my graph appears huge! I have no idea what I did, but it gets the point across all the same lol.

Cheers,
-Jexy

[Kakashis]

I believe that events are going to be the new norm to extend expansions. The quick turn around time initially shows that they already had those expansions in their story line pre-planning! I think shuyal was the last one on their story line and you can sort of tell tindirin was designed after the fact. I still appreciate that this game is getting updates!

[G-M]

Bear in mind there were also some large events in there, including Ursoth's Assault, Halloween, and Winter.

Edit: Oh and we definitely hear you and understand your frustration. If I could snap my fingers and make the expansion arrive right now I certainly would. I think Remiem will have some screenshots and info to share very soon.

[extrapayah]

if we're looking at levels, the bigger your level is, the longer you need to level up, so a curve up for expansion is more or less expected, though...

anyway, if sts release new farmable elite legendary weapon set (for gun, sword&shield, and bow), probably many will happy, ehehehehehehehehehehehe

*still wishing for shared pet stable T_T

[gumball3000]

Bear in mind there were also some large events in there, including Ursoth's Assault, Halloween, and Winter.

Edit: Oh and we definitely hear you and understand your frustration. If I could snap my fingers and make the expansion arrive right now I certainly would. I think Remiem will have some screenshots and info to share very soon.

As someone has stated in another post, the average player grinds his way to platinum tier and then plays a little bit here and there the rest of the event.
The problem with new expansions is they lose replayability value very very quickly too, doing the same 5 new maps over and over again for loot that barely covers the expense of running them is really frustrating.

I have asked remiem if we will see any changes to the pvp system any time soon. The short answer is no. That really pissed me off. I asked remiem to go to ctf and see the chaos that is going on in ctf right now and she laughed it off. Actually she went to ctf and said she was called a noob but thats not the point.

The point is Pvp has great replayability value but its a mess in its current state. I get that pvp doesnt bring the company any money at least not directly but thats not a reason to overlook all the problems with it. When i am saying problems i think of people ruining other players experience by free flagging, blocking games, dummy farming ect.

Also what good is a new expansion when i don't even have the best items for the current expansion. If anything a new expansion is in my disadvantage because new items means more time i have to spend figuring out ways to get a little bit of gold and get at least the current average gear.

Arcane legends should stop trying to be something that it is not. And it deffinitely is not a full blown pc mmorpg. Its a pocket mmorpg that tries too hard to be like the big guys. Spending years farming for items that get outdated with every expansion is a joke. Didn't you guys get tired of being called pay to win? You are not even hiding it at the moment.

The benefit of a new expansion to the game right now is marginal. You are really overestimating the amout of pve runners in the game. Im pretty sure there are more people doing pvp levels 1 trough 41 than elite maps at any time of the day. Not to mention the bugs that will be introduced with the new expansion that will again take 1-2 months to solve.


Now i don't really know how this expansion will be but i can't have really that high hopes for 5 new maps and a new town.

I think this has been stated before that sts is not really a techy company and doesn't really deal well with adding stuff to the game that requires coding. My guess is and correct me if i am wrong is that gfx designers and animators are employed by sts and you are outsourcing the coding part to another company. I can understand that since a good coder is 2 times more expensive than a gfx designer but it is a really bad business model.

This game had great potential and maybe still does but bad management, poor decisions, lack of coders in sts team, time wasted on useless stuff put the game in a position where even sts i don't think it wanted to be. When all the gathered frustrations will explode it is going to be a rolling stone and if the majority of your f2p player base decides enough is enough and leaves i don't think even the most avid plat spenders will stay here to watch the game die if they have nobody to play with.

On another note, i appreciate g-m taking the time to reply to some of the posts today, this is not as common of an occurence at it should be.

[Candylicks]

Remi is noob comment made me laugh. And yes thanks G-M for fielding the forums today as we slung some at your guys, but only because we love this game and just want to know if it's peaked or not.

[gumball3000]

Jex, you should post a rough estimate for the expansion after the level 46 one based on the current curve. im guessing it is over 10 years, lol.

[gumball3000]

Remi is noob comment made me laugh. And yes thanks G-M for fielding the forums today as we slung some at your guys, but only because we love this game and just want to know if it's peaked or not.

Yup, remi has multiple incognito accounts where she plays. I really can't blame these sts employees, they are doing everything they can with what they have at hand and they really aren't bad guys or lack interest. I blame the sts owner and manager, capo di tutti capi even though i don't know who that is because he is in the business of making money not in the business of making great games even if great games bring more money in the long run than bad ones that squeeze money.

[Tatman]

The benefit of a new expansion to the game right now is marginal. You are really overestimating the amout of pve runners in the game. Im pretty sure there are more people doing pvp levels 1 trough 41 than elite maps at any time of the day. Not to mention the bugs that will be introduced with the new expansion that will again take 1-2 months to solve.

While I agree with most you say, and with most you've been saying in all threads recently, I don't agree with this. The moment new expansions stop, or any new pve stuff for that matter, is the moment this game finally dies. This is the moment when - as you put it - "the majority of your f2p player base decides enough is enough and leaves".

I do think STS should have fixed all major problems first, starting with lag and all related issues (like the screen freeze bug, which, contrary to popular belief, is NOT a chrome issue), but it is more than obvious to me that they lack the necessary manpower to do it. It boggles my mind that a business, any business, would leave its most successful and profitable product basically on autopilot, but it is the reality. I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being, and see where they go with the new expansion. The moment it becomes 100% clear that AL follows the path of their previous games, is the moment I am out. And this is also the moment when a good hundred of the still active people on my friend list, probably even more, leave too. This is what happened to me with another game I used to play, and I played a lot more than AL. Years after it virtually died, I'd go there from time to time to find some of the same maniacs and chat with them. And they were still there, collecting each others' ears. Probably still are. This is what awaits AL when new pve stuff stops being released. Some of you, the hardcore pvp maniacs and maybe some obsessed timed runners, will probably be here years after that moment, gathering pointless stats and record times. But that's it. The majority will be long gone.

[Zylx]

I wholeheartedly agree with what you said. But let me expand with my views on Spacetime's future.

More specifically, Spacetime should not rule out the possibility of releasing a new MMORPG ("Legends") title - this would be absolutely foolish. I see many things that have yet to be perfected even in Arcane Legends, that could make itself still considered as a continuous "game in testing".

Arcane Legends incorporates many elements that have been improved from the previous titles, such as combat (charging, sub-level skill trees, etc), graphics (self-explanatory), UI (making the HUD less cluttered and simpler-to-navigate menus), and a few more. People learn new things, and also rediscover ways to improve old things. Arcane Legends is far from perfect, but the further it is in its development, the harder it gets to improve.

Releasing a new Legends title in the future is the best that STS could do given their current resources as a small company. Arcane Legends will inevitably outgrow STS, while also fall behind the other mobile mmo's from larger companies. There is no doubt that STS possesses unbelievably talented developers and are extraordinary game designers. But there will come a time when the old will surely whither away and it'll be necessary to replace with something new - that's the indefinite cycle of technology.

If STS wants to be around 10 years from now, they would be due for a new flagship mmorpg game within about 5-7 years, when their resources and experience are far more advanced than they were when they were incorporated in AL. All of the Legends titles will still be novelties even 20 years from now, as they are discovered and coveted by people whom they appeal to, regardless of whether they're still in development or not. They are still games. But if STS wants to grow, they will need to either create a new flagship, or upgrade to a larger corporate to accommodate a larger game.

Those are my views on the matter. Nothing lasts forever, and neither will AL.

[obee]

STS needs more content honestly. You know there is a problem when players defeat all the bosses and cap in less than 2 hours. In most MMOs, quests are what distract players, and leveling comes along with it. People only do quests for AP's now, and they focus on leveling. Not how MMOs are really supposed to be played IMO.

[Dragoonclaws]

As someone has stated in another post, the average player grinds his way to platinum tier and then plays a little bit here and there the rest of the event.
The problem with new expansions is they lose replayability value very very quickly too, doing the same 5 new maps over and over again for loot that barely covers the expense of running them is really frustrating.

I have asked remiem if we will see any changes to the pvp system any time soon. The short answer is no. That really pissed me off. I asked remiem to go to ctf and see the chaos that is going on in ctf right now and she laughed it off. Actually she went to ctf and said she was called a noob but thats not the point.

The point is Pvp has great replayability value but its a mess in its current state. I get that pvp doesnt bring the company any money at least not directly but thats not a reason to overlook all the problems with it. When i am saying problems i think of people ruining other players experience by free flagging, blocking games, dummy farming ect.

Also what good is a new expansion when i don't even have the best items for the current expansion. If anything a new expansion is in my disadvantage because new items means more time i have to spend figuring out ways to get a little bit of gold and get at least the current average gear.

Arcane legends should stop trying to be something that it is not. And it deffinitely is not a full blown pc mmorpg. Its a pocket mmorpg that tries too hard to be like the big guys. Spending years farming for items that get outdated with every expansion is a joke. Didn't you guys get tired of being called pay to win? You are not even hiding it at the moment.

The benefit of a new expansion to the game right now is marginal. You are really overestimating the amout of pve runners in the game. Im pretty sure there are more people doing pvp levels 1 trough 41 than elite maps at any time of the day. Not to mention the bugs that will be introduced with the new expansion that will again take 1-2 months to solve.


Now i don't really know how this expansion will be but i can't have really that high hopes for 5 new maps and a new town.

I think this has been stated before that sts is not really a techy company and doesn't really deal well with adding stuff to the game that requires coding. My guess is and correct me if i am wrong is that gfx designers and animators are employed by sts and you are outsourcing the coding part to another company. I can understand that since a good coder is 2 times more expensive than a gfx designer but it is a really bad business model.

This game had great potential and maybe still does but bad management, poor decisions, lack of coders in sts team, time wasted on useless stuff put the game in a position where even sts i don't think it wanted to be. When all the gathered frustrations will explode it is going to be a rolling stone and if the majority of your f2p player base decides enough is enough and leaves i don't think even the most avid plat spenders will stay here to watch the game die if they have nobody to play with.

On another note, i appreciate g-m taking the time to reply to some of the posts today, this is not as common of an occurence at it should be.

STS main priority is to release the new expansion. There is also that new game Call of Champions they have been working on. You said it, PvP is no big income for STS and I do agree with tha mess. I put my feet once in PvP and never joined a PvP map again.

There are many reasons explaining why a new expansion is the best thing that can happen to this game:

Since you like to talk about plat users, well those people will have some new reasons to buy plats and spend it all on locked crates and stuff. It's also an opportunity for the non-plat users to farm easily the old elite maps. I am sure there are many ways to make money in this game. Well, it has always been the fate of non-paying users... to farm a lot be good. The disadvantage is same and has always been the same. The graphic in ths post shows you've been given more then 1 year to become a very good player.

Now why new expansion need more time to be released:

• They need to create new themes, a new story, new set of monsters, new kinds of bosses with new difficulties, new elite maps (that need to be calibrated to become possible, but extremely hard), new types of armor, new weapons. None of these must look like the old campains. It's pretty easy at the beginning because everything is new, and there are plenty of ideas. After all these campains, there is a lack of new ideas and it takes more time to find them and put them all in one big pack. It's like building a sand castle; at the begining it's easy because the sand is close... but it gets harder later because you have to grab sand from a farther place. Difficulty keeps increasing.
• At the very beginning, classes being at low level, they have pretty close stats compared to the actual end-game stats: Warriors with over 7k HP, Sorcerers with over 1k dmg and Rogues with over 40% crit/dodge. It's not obvious to balance each class with old skills, and keep those extreme stat gaps. Keel in mind that they have to predict and balance all the classes with comparable gear: which means that a middle class sorcerer must be as strong as a middle clas rogue or a middle class warrior. There are many factors you don't know because you don't really know the mechanics. Buffing and nerfing the gear isn't as easy as a multiplication of the stats by a constant. This applies to each gear of each level of each class of each rarity (including common, rare and epic). Imagine the matrix of equipement that need to scaled perfectly!!! With all that, they must create a lower level version of their new equipments and make it comparable and stuff. These last points explain why new expansion need more and more time to release, and I am pretty sure there are even more reasons.
• If old arcanes and mythics were still good at new expansion, nobody would try to get the new items. We are all saving for the best items: if the new items aren't much better, why waste my gold/plat/real money in it? I was told that Kettle was worth over 4m at release because it was a very good pet and it was a rare one. Why would I look after Singe if I can keep my Kettle? Why would I spend my money?
• My actual guild is dead because players quit: no updates. Players want new objectives to reach, new peaks, new maps, new bosses. I don't think it would be fun if everyone was able to get the best gear easily through PvE, then spend the rest of the time in PvP. PvP is a mini game enjoyed by many players. The only way to update endgame PvP is to update PvE. There must be a difficulty to obtain the best gear, that's why I totally agree with the extreme rarity of arcane/mythic items. There MUST be a gap. The actual gap is huge as noticed by many players. The reason behind that is that players would be tempted by searching for those OP gears: the more OP gear he has, larger the gap becomes. A noob player would be a plyer with no OP gear, a middle class plyer would be a player with some of those gear, and the best players own all those OP gears. Sorry, but your icescale/planar/magmatic/frozen gear is just the best of the crap. You must work hard to reach the best: that's why there is a dragonite bar to be farmed, and a mythic pendant to be crafted. It's easier for paying users... no shet (obviously duh, otherwise no much income).
• There are many more reasons I won't cite (yes I am lacking of imagination rn)

One of the reasons why there will be bugs and that it will take 1-2 months to repair: The expansion is raw, it wasn't much tested. The only way to find bugs is to use the expansion and there is no better way then get a test by the hoard of players. Since expansion is a surprise, the only way to test it... is to get feedback from the users after the expansion release. It's VERY normal to start an expansion with many bugs.

I don't think you're well placed to judge the actual designers. I don't think the game would get better if STS is not trying to become like the "Big ones". I do agree that STS should have their own ways, but there are some really good ideas they can take from the other big games.

+1 for G-M giving time to forums. We feel closer to developpers that way. the messages travles... let's say quicker.

[Zylx]

STS needs more content honestly. You know there is a problem when players defeat all the bosses and cap in less than 2 hours. In most MMOs, quests are what distract players, and leveling comes along with it. People only do quests for AP's now, and they focus on leveling. Not how MMOs are really supposed to be played IMO.

Agreed. The questing system is too linear and boring and I'm sure 80% of players (myself included) havent followed the story past dead city. It's always the same - kill these enemies, loot these things from killing these enemies. We need more creative and interactive quests.

I would suggest adding an incentive for players to read the dialogue. Have an npc give you a password to a super secret tunnel. Give a decision from time to time that triggers two or more different quest lines and different rewards depending on which one you chose. The rewards need to be better than 1,000 gold, 2,000 gold, Epic Cap, etc. More like a cool vanity piece where you have to gather 10 pieces from completing a string of quests to forge an awesome vanity.

[vfreakhun]

I have to agree with Prynce (prev post).
IMO the new myth pendant was a good try to make thinks longer.
This could be followed for Quests as well.
I met many new players (lvl6-15) who did not know anything about quests. Even they did not bother to get their 2nd free pet (the owl at Backendridge).
Some players do not understand why they cannot go in tombs (because they did not bother to spean NPC and did not get the quest).
IMO the quest line should be strengthened.
The only disadvantage: We have many non-english speaking players (who sometimes mix the sell and buy words LOL).

Regarding expansion:
- There was announced that during mid expansions there will be new (better) gears along with events. IMO it was a VERY good idea.
- There will be the new expansion (very) soon, so the exponential curve (stated in 1st post) became (hopefully) linear at later stages - with 1 expansion/year and if STS keeps this rate, this is enough!

Just imagine the Imbued prices when new expansion comes.
If there would be a more frequent expansion the prices could diminish even faster!
You cannot expect this!

[Haligali]

I get that pvp doesnt bring the company any money at least not directly but thats not a reason to overlook all the problems with it.

Pvp brings a lot of money for sts and they know it since pets allowed. (Pet were not allowed at the start of pvp)
A redesigned tdm map would be cool, replace the trees with small houses, trull with jarl (drops locked if killed) and call it brackenridge tdm. This is an easy work without making any new pvp system.

[Clickbangboom]

I hope sts is reading through this thread! There are some very good, constructive ideas coming up in here! Keep it up guys! It is nice to read a thread that has good constructive feedback in it, rather then just the common complaining threads and posts.

New content I think is a great idea, but as some have mentioned, you can expand too fast as this has many down sides too. I really hope with this expansion STS adds a strong story line that people actually want to follow and makes them want to do the quest. Along with that I think Prynce has a very good idea with adding quest that tie together to give a GOOD reward!
One other thing that I think would be good for sts to think about in the future is giving us more contest. I believe contest really draw people out, we all like a little challenge and competition. Take for example Goodsyntax (kalizaas) tour of Arlor contest, it was a huge success and it was all player sponsored and supported, sts could take notes from that contest and be able to build a sts sponsored, supported, contest that motivates people to log on and play. Yes they give us events, but those get dull too fast, if they did more progressive contest, people would keep logging in to continue the challenge. AND you can do contests built around the given content, no added content or expansions needed, just motivation to play the content we have.
I know my ideas are not perfect, but lets keep this good constructive dialog going people! What ideas do you have? What motivates, or would motivate, you to log on and play?

[G-M]

Definitely keeping an eye on this thread. Thanks for the extremely helpful posts. We've already been incorporating some of this feedback and I'm really excited to learn what you all think when Remiem, Productor, and Fibus share more details soon.

We are definitely aware that you guys play through expansion content very quickly and we've designed the latest expansion with that in mind. We also have more events planned for between expansions. Our goal is to always have something for you to do and enjoy in Arcane Legends. It might not seem that way yet because it has been a long time since Tindirin. We have been trying new events every week so far this year and while some are more exciting than others it's all part of our plan to update more frequently and always have something going on for you to look forward to in AL. The expansion will open up more opportunities because with the new level cap comes new gear, new pets, new mobs, new bosses, new dungeons, and more.

Clickbangboom to your point about contests and events that's absolutely something we'd like to do and we've already been planning a number of events for the rest of this year. In fact I pitched an event concept recently and Remiem and carapace were like "Dude G-M the community already runs an event just like that called Tour of Arlor." So in that way you guys sometimes beat us to the punch and that's a humbling experience as a developer and is just one more example of what an amazing community we have in AL!

[Zylx]

Definitely keeping an eye on this thread. Thanks for the extremely helpful posts. We've already been incorporating some of this feedback and I'm really excited to learn what you all think when Remiem, Productor, and Fibus share more details soon.

We are definitely aware that you guys play through expansion content very quickly and we've designed the latest expansion with that in mind. We also have more events planned for between expansions. Our goal is to always have something for you to do and enjoy in Arcane Legends. It might not seem that way yet because it has been a long time since Tindirin. We have been trying new events every week so far this year and while some are more exciting than others it's all part of our plan to update more frequently and always have something going on for you to look forward to in AL. The expansion will open up more opportunities because with the new level cap comes new gear, new pets, new mobs, new bosses, new dungeons, and more.

Clickbangboom to your point about contests and events that's absolutely something we'd like to do and we've already been planning a number of events for the rest of this year. In fact I pitched an event concept recently and Remiem and carapace were like "Dude G-M the community already runs an event just like that called Tour of Arlor." So in that way you guys sometimes beat us to the punch and that's a humbling experience as a developer and is just one more example of what an amazing community we have in AL!

I know this is a little off-topic, but I've noticed you around the Legends forums quite frequently lately, and I'm wondering if they transferred you from the Battle games to the Legends?

[Dragoonclaws]

I know this is a little off-topic, but I've noticed you around the Legends forums quite frequently lately, and I'm wondering if they transferred you from the Battle games to the Legends?

Dude, just enjoy this. G-M must have discovered how awesome forums are, and how awesome interacting throught forums is. I mean, the number of constructive answers and ideas comming up from everywhere. I enjoy being on forums more then reading a book lol.

[lavecina]

This are some ideas,, ill leave them here if they are of any inspiration:

Cant play pvp with no Nekro and no Arcane Ring,, 100millions worth
Have the new armor and helm another 40m.
10k flags with karma in both teams ganging and blocking? Bad idea
Let us be geared and make this game more equal,, plats users can advance faster but let this game be based on skills and not in plat.
Most people can farm 1m a week, make your maths and this worries me more about the game future.
Only valuable items in game are shards nekros and couple pets, rest is 1m or lower.
Release SNS, its out balanced regarding pvp and timed runs.
Take off warmonger and flag achivement and most pvp problems will end, like dummy farming.
Make a lv40 pvp area, if they are lazy to lv up they are lazy to gear up.

BEST think lately: new amulet idea,, i rilly like this, can be lootable or bought,, some people working for unlucky people, "share the gold"


BEst event:
the elusive 4 droping this rings (remember making nearly 10m this days before they nerfed)
Find bael and kill the super dificult boss for expensive gear items.

Happy Days.
Dont Drink and Play.