Scaling of old elite maps

[Xorrior]

I would like to summarise what I'd said before.......

The DEVs can scale any map if they like, but if the loot is rubbish no one is going to bother!

And now I present you with a TL;DR moment.......

Imagine this game being an iceberg and the decent farmable stuff is at the tip - limited and prone to over-farming. But if you look below the surface, you would see a huge unplayed area, where fresh content could be spread and the maps revitalised. It could mean more income for STS i.e ankhs, potions , lixers all need to be bought.

If I was lead Dev I would even create an energy zone map. If you have energy you can enter with mobs and bosses that would make arena seem like child's play but the loot from it would be awesome. STS finance dept would be happy, plat spenders can do the plat to gold thing, people can farm exclusive rare loot and have an extra farmable map.

What I'm trying to say is have people who are farming spread out across Arlor and not all loot dry an endgame map, where the loots worth no longer becomes decent.

I give ya an example right now about endgame dryness......

I want to buy a mythic bow right! WTH is there to farm for me to get the remaining gold amount. Virtually nothing! I require 10m do you know how many breezes I gotta farm for that!!!!!!!! Imagine the amount of boring tooth runs to do so I can get drag bars and sell them to reach that target! Farming the tip of the iceberg cornered with tooth runs and breeze runs and not much else.

The key to the game is not scaling alone but freshening up the loot table with needed and wanted items. Yes it takes time and effort but you guys are the DEVs it's what you guys get paid for....amirite?

[Sorcerie]

Scale the maps up to 46 for sure.

Then give Elite Bloodhammer a chance to drop Hammerjaw, and Elite Grimnr a chance to drop Glacian, Elite Inan' a chance to drop Samael, and Elite Rendtail a chance to drop Singe. All of these pets will be discontinued once the new locked crates are implemented. This idea would certainly breathe life into each one of the past campaigns as people will always need pets and will want to complete their pet collections.

It would be a farmable way to get the Arcane AP that wouldn't involve chests. Plus, a real farmable arcane in the game in the form of an egg would just really be awesome as arcane pets could really rally people to farm those maps and bosses with relentless vigor, I know I would. Pets are a major aspect to the game, so why not make it a bigger challenge with the old arcanes, pokemon style, lol.

Just an idea...

[Serancha]

The point is simply to keep a sort of linear progression for players as they develop their characters; to keep the game fun with relevant map areas all the way through character development, rather than presenting players with a huge insurmountable jump in difficulty once they cap and unlock elites. The gap today between a newly capped player and a capped player with the very best of gear, is significantly larger in terms of wealth, stats, and game experience/knowledge than it was the first time you played Brackenridge elite.

You don't have to have arcane gear to run scaled elites. People seem be unaware of this. Yes, you need decent legendaries, but most players have that after a few weeks in the game. It's not even expensive by anyone's standards. Within days of the last cap, the top crate legendaries were purchasable for under 10K for all classes. People then used these to farm for better ones in the (scaled) elite maps.

Please tell me more about how tombs and kraken mines create a stimulating and enjoyable play experience that will keep capped players in game, give them farming options, and motivate them to keep coming back for more of the same >.<

Many many members of my guild over the past two years have spent a lot of time crate farming. Doing so forged bonds between guild members, got people used to their characters and skills, and earned them enough money to go arcane plat-free. Players did this because we knew there was more to the game to experience, and that to run that content optimally, better gear needed to be earned. So we worked to earn it. It gave us a goal and a purpose and kept us logging in.

Not every player with average gear is “noob” some players just actually prefer a slightly more casual game experience, and would be/are happy to farm mild level difficulty elites and slowly amble their way towards better gear, or simply be content with legendaries. Lost mages mine and Rooks nest are still popular maps...

*sigh* I did not say all average geared players were noob, nor did I think it. It was just a general term I used to encompass this "easy elite" situation that people mistakenly think is actually being used. Since the pet crates came along, there's nothing in those maps to make money on.


As for the rest, I'm not going to keep repeating the same explanations. Ultimately it's up to the devs whether they want to sort this out.

Looking at the outline on the crate thread, you can see that they only provided for farming of normal maps (from Ydra up which is good), and elites from Shuyal up, This means the normal maps are covered and the new elites covered, but the remainder of the elite maps are excluded completely. That is what this thread is looking at.

[Shaytarria]

++++++++++++++1

[Dalmony]

Neither will I keep saying the same things. However... thinking that the easier Elites are used is not a mistake. I frequently see people farming elite rooks nest, Elite mage mine, and even Elite jarl, despite the fact that the income from t hose maps is low, people still enjoy them. The rest would be used too by those same players.

In my 2 and a half years playing I have never farmed crates. I bonded with my guild by teaching them elites and farming those... everyone's idea of fun is different and I personnally get bored of km3 before a half an hour elixir runs out. If that was only real option at end game once I capped Id lose interest go find a game which had more to offer me... everyone is different.

[greekAL]

just give the ppl the option to farm those tokens guys and all will be happy! our last season all ppl were mad by recipe drop rate! butt all those ppl were happy to farm tombs cause if u ar unlucky u still gather tokens after hard work! thats what the game needs something to give u when u spent hours of farming! not wait a lucky drop from locks/bosses!

[kona]

unless the elite map's drop rates are good and offer good loot ,making them challenging wouldn't make me feel like running them

[UnnamedGuy]

Current issues

For the last few months, player interest has declined to an all-time low.

This can be seen clearly by the number of guild hoppers bouncing between guilds, the steady decline of online players (last night there were 12 out of 300 on my F/L online during North American prime time), and the #1 ranked guild for most online in the 7 day range is 22% below what it was a year ago.

Even considering that the economy always crashes as soon as an expansion is announced, much of this decline has to do with boredom - too little variety of maps to farm, too little loot of value to farm for, and too little challenge.

We have 3 new maps being added for the level 46 cap, and this is not going to hold people's attention for long. There is talk of a lot of potentially farmable stuff, so what's the deal? Are these items all going to squeeze into the three new bosses, leaving people groaning at the tedium of repetition?


Proposal

Why not take all the lovely elite maps from ALL the other seasons, and instead of having them easy enough for a naked level 20 to run with no viable loot, scale the mobs up to 46 like elites should be, and populate ALL the elite bosses in the game with viable loot. This would add a ton of interest and variety into the game, allowing for people to choose what they want to farm and where. If all maps were equally challenging (as far as mob level goes), and all had loot we could use - it would provide a lot more purpose for this new "skip-the-leveling" feature.

I have never seen the point of having low level elites, and wasted maps. Having maps with useless loot and one-hit-able mobs is a waste of space and bandwidth. It wouldn't take a lot of resources to scale things up, since the coding for scaling mobs is already present for tombs and other maps.

Are there any reasons for this not to be implemented? It may just fix the problem of severely declining player interest, loot distribution issues and a lot of other things.

Great idea for those who wanna see lvl41/46 Flamestrikes/charwards/Lifethiefs etc!

[Socrates]

is the expansion rly only 3 maps?? I thought that there where only 3 maps in the test server and the other two maps would be a surprise for when the expansion will hit....... That sure is a hit below the waist if it's true :/

[Serancha]

Neither will I keep saying the same things. However... thinking that the easier Elites are used is not a mistake. I frequently see people farming elite rooks nest, Elite mage mine, and even Elite jarl, despite the fact that the income from t hose maps is low, people still enjoy them. The rest would be used too by those same players.

In my 2 and a half years playing I have never farmed crates. I bonded with my guild by teaching them elites and farming those... everyone's idea of fun is different and I personnally get bored of km3 before a half an hour elixir runs out. If that was only real option at end game once I capped Id lose interest go find a game which had more to offer me... everyone is different.

There are options at end game. You can wear epic gear and farm normal maps or spend 50k on legendary gear and farm elites. It really isn't that difficult to get good enough gear to run scaled maps. By end game, most people have enough gear to manage it.

unless the elite map's drop rates are good and offer good loot ,making them challenging wouldn't make me feel like running them

That is why the proposal includes the distribution of elite loot through all the elite maps, providing they are scaled.

is the expansion rly only 3 maps?? I thought that there where only 3 maps in the test server and the other two maps would be a surprise for when the expansion will hit....... That sure is a hit below the waist if it's true :/

Only 3 bosses were shown in the sneak peeks, and there has been nothihg said to imply that there will be a full 5 map expansion,

[Dalmony]

Yes there are often cheap options for gear, but it isn't only gear which gets in the way of newly capped players farming endgame against the hardest hitting elite mobs.

Sometimes and most often, it is gold or lack of it - often players don't have enough gold to sustain themselves in the hardest elites for long enough to make it to their first hugely valuable drop, in terms of ankh costs, pot costs, pet food costs for the couple of pets they have which are decent enough to run there. That's when they move down to the next farming tier to start to build up some gold first.... And as I've said not everyone wants to do that in just km3 (and regular wilds as had also been pointed out).

I just think that it's important to keep something to everyone's tastes, whatever the reason might be for those - fun factor / gold / time / a love of picking on weak(ish) goblins / etc. And at the end of the day I am not trying to argue for zero changes to be made, just that they be made while taking the entire player base into consideration (by leaving a small number of elites scaled down a little bit and to a lesser extent than they were previously).

I think we are probably going to have to agree to disagree on some things. All of what is being said here is healthy to the development of what is being proposed here and that's the main aim of the thread.

Thanks for bringing it up

[ClumsyCactus]

Scale the maps up to 46 for sure.

Then give Elite Bloodhammer a chance to drop Hammerjaw, and Elite Grimnr a chance to drop Glacian, Elite Inan' a chance to drop Samael, and Elite Rendtail a chance to drop Singe. All of these pets will be discontinued once the new locked crates are implemented. This idea would certainly breathe life into each one of the past campaigns as people will always need pets and will want to complete their pet collections.

It would be a farmable way to get the Arcane AP that wouldn't involve chests. Plus, a real farmable arcane in the game in the form of an egg would just really be awesome as arcane pets could really rally people to farm those maps and bosses with relentless vigor, I know I would. Pets are a major aspect to the game, so why not make it a bigger challenge with the old arcanes, pokemon style, lol.

Just an idea...

I support this!!

[OdenTheJust]

Perfect exactly what the game needs, this would make the game so much more fun, like it used to be, like how it should be.

[kananaskis]

The more i think about this, the better it seems.

Serencha's proposal to "... take all the lovely elite maps from ALL the other seasons, and instead of having them easy enough for a naked level 20 to run with no viable loot, scale the mobs up to 46 like elites should be, and populate ALL the elite bosses in the game with viable loot."

This would add to the game a real "variety of maps to farm", "loot of value to farm for", and new challenges, which would increase player interest and activity.

Two alternatives have emerged in this thread.

Serancha proposes that all elite maps be "equally challenging (as far as mob level goes), allowing for people to choose what they want to farm and where. If all maps were, and all had loot we could use - it would provide a lot more purpose for this new "skip-the-leveling" feature." There's lots of support for this in this thread.

Others suggest scaling elites up but not all to the same degree. The most detailed proposal here by Dalmony who suggests "an alternative to the originally posted idea" where the majority "...of the maps be scaled up leaving the first few maps [Brakenridge to Dead City] at 5 levels below cap as an entry point to elites for newly capped players", and that Kraken, Nordr, Shuyal, Planar, Tindrin, & Ren'gol be scaled to 46.

Both make a strong case I think. Generally, there is a consensus that the current low level elites are way to easy now and will become more irrelevant with level 46. So: Scale all to 46 to challenge players, having only to choose on which loot and quests to focus on, or have a set of elite maps scaling to 41as an entry point while most scale to 46.

On the one hand, Serancha points out that if all elites were scaled, then this is what most endgame players would be running, or gearing up to run, and new legendaries will be enough to begin these fully scaled elites. Also if some elites are left at an easier level they would be open to over-farming.

On the other hand, having some elites five below level cap will allow newer players to transition toward the tougher maps. Indeed this was my experience, beginning AL 4 months before the Tindrin expansion and 41 cap. I found this useful on the learning curve before actually getting tto the 41 scaled elites (Nordr Shuyal Tindrin). It was also a means at the time to farm up to better gear for 41 elites. But i appreciate that Serancha points out that in earlier seasons, all elites were fully scaled and the jump from normal to elite was by no means insurmountable.

I am wondering what people think and look forward to the discussion. Many good points have been made here.

As far as new loot, some specific suggestions were put forward here and there. I imagine that the the majority of citizens of Arlor would agree with additional gear drops, craftables, and quest rewards spead thru all elites, rather than in a few maps. The specifics of this are complex and there is much possibility here, but to me the important part of this thread now is how elites should be scaled up: some 41 & most 46; or all 46?

[Bigboyblue]

I would like to see all maps scaled to 46 with descent loot dropping from them. I remember running from brakenridge to kraken solo with my lvl 41 toon. I'm a mage and could solo these maps. I was wearing pink gear at the time as well. This doesn't involve skill, it doesn't help you gain real elite experience. There isn't really a point of having a lesser scaled elite map. The loot dropped isn't very good either so you end up running them once for APs and then grinding out the newest elite maps for drops. This gets boring and tedious pretty quick and also leads to over farming.

If all maps were scaled and each area had different drops it would open the game up. We could be entertained for longer, farm longer and the loot would hold value longer.

[Serancha]

We've hit 40 thanks on the original post. That is a huge show of support from the community. I think we'd all like to hear some feedback from the devs. Either yes they can implement it or a valid reason why they can't / won't.

[Niixed]

I also fully support this idea, and I have something to add.

With Ren'gol Locked dropping usable tokens, STS seems to be finally grasping the idea that players should not get nothing for something. Farming elites has been akin to struggling with all of your strength for 15-30 nonstop minutes just to pull down the lever of a slot machine ONE TIME. If you lucky you get something of actual value, if not HAHAHAHAHA! It's no wonder even maxed-out top-geared players tend to shy away from farming elites.

If STS scales the old elites and adds better, worthwhile loot, I encourage them to also...

• ...boost the gold reward that typically drops from bosses to equal 50% of the cost of the potions expected to be used during an average run in that map.
• ...in addition to gold and and loot, a chance to drop tradable elixir, respec scrolls, or ankhs.
• ...consider including a token system for legendary gear/elixirs/ankhs/etc that can also be purchased from a vendor. Tokens could drop from copper/silver/gold chests (not necessarily guaranteed tokens like with the Ren'gol crates)

[Xxdisarrayxx]

Current issues

For the last few months, player interest has declined to an all-time low.

This can be seen clearly by the number of guild hoppers bouncing between guilds, the steady decline of online players (last night there were 12 out of 300 on my F/L online during North American prime time), and the #1 ranked guild for most online in the 7 day range is 22% below what it was a year ago.

Even considering that the economy always crashes as soon as an expansion is announced, much of this decline has to do with boredom - too little variety of maps to farm, too little loot of value to farm for, and too little challenge.

We have 3 new maps being added for the level 46 cap, and this is not going to hold people's attention for long. There is talk of a lot of potentially farmable stuff, so what's the deal? Are these items all going to squeeze into the three new bosses, leaving people groaning at the tedium of repetition?


Proposal

Why not take all the lovely elite maps from ALL the other seasons, and instead of having them easy enough for a naked level 20 to run with no viable loot, scale the mobs up to 46 like elites should be, and populate ALL the elite bosses in the game with viable loot. This would add a ton of interest and variety into the game, allowing for people to choose what they want to farm and where. If all maps were equally challenging (as far as mob level goes), and all had loot we could use - it would provide a lot more purpose for this new "skip-the-leveling" feature.

I have never seen the point of having low level elites, and wasted maps. Having maps with useless loot and one-hit-able mobs is a waste of space and bandwidth. It wouldn't take a lot of resources to scale things up, since the coding for scaling mobs is already present for tombs and other maps.

Are there any reasons for this not to be implemented? It may just fix the problem of severely declining player interest, loot distribution issues and a lot of other things.

+1 I support this 100% . Amazing idea from an intelligent, veteran player and a proven astonishing GM . Her experience , and words should not be taken lightly. I really hope the devs not only reply or give her a type of answer, but began communicating with her personally, as I believe (as well as many many others) she can help keep this game alive. I'd really hate to see this game die or descend . Please do not underestimate her comprehension or disregard her perception and mastery understanding of this game.

[Ssneakykills]

I'm surprised a dev/mod hasn't stepped up and give us their thoughts on this thread yet especially as the thread has gained a lot of attention and popularity

[Serancha]

Still no response. I guess providing feedback isn't as productive as it used to be. As shown in this thread, nobody is looking forward to over a year of running only 3 elite maps.