FARMING - a discussion

[Diz]

I'm going to start off this post by a quote from a thread called - "So where are the people that actually want to play ancient swamps then?" [page 2]

What is there to do at 35 by playing the actual dungeons right that's better than farming. It's my opinion that taking away farming will cost the interest of numerous lvl 35s unless some balance is made item-wise to play the whole level. I like the idea of increased mob drops, by alot. I also think just adding mob drops that are unique is a good idea. Don't just kill farming and add nothing though.

Wow. Farming is the entire reason I have not PvE'd for over 2 weeks. It defies all integrity of what PvE is in this particular instanced Gauntlet-esque game design. It shows the shallowness of players in their juvenile pursuit of pink items for no particular reason. It circumvents the challenging aspects of completely finishing a dungeon in its original proper intended manner.

But what do I know, I'm just a guy who only enjoys PvP in MMORPGs anyways.

Farming is fail. Having to join 5+ instances just to find a group NOT farming is absolutely demeaning to the original intent of entire campaigns and surely individual maps. Farming is, to be frank - pathetic and truly a trivial pursuit.

In the broadest "general gaming 101" perspective, Farming is not very attractive to potential customers. In fact, it makes most potential players scratch their head. Regardless of whether Farming is a viable and rewarding activity or not. By default, Farming is an inclusive, socially destructive, capitalistic, economically destructive behavior that can not only quicken the pace of an individual player's "life cycle" within an MMO, but it can also dampen the desire for other potential players to play. There is a psychological factor involved, let me explain briefly ---

Only in a game where the virtual "glass ceiling" of the economy has been passed by the majority of players is Farming a socially and economically viable activity for most players.

Only in a game where the maturation of the server and community itself has developed, observed, and participated in rampant inflation and wealth accumulation, thus diluting the economy to the point where individual gear [even high end] holds no intrinsic value, is Farming a respectable and necessary endeavor.

Only in a game where the desire for items trumps all other motivators [aka carrot sticks] does Farming show itself to an efficient use of time. Obviously, with PvP just coming out, trade being possible to help potentiall balance the economy, and guilds coming to help create end game politics and social structure, there are going to be other activities and options in game for a player to entertain. But as it stands, pretending like Farming is the only currently important thing to do in the game is sad and it is turning people off to the game, from hardcore end gamers to lowbie noobs who see this in forums, chat, game, etc.

I am sorry, but Farming as a generally popular activity in the current state of the game IS a failure on Spacetime's part to provide the players with not only challenging content that is enjoyable in its' entirity, but also the community's fault for becoming to focused on pink-worded items that boost your stats by inefficient margins. How this fascination begins in MMOs is obvious, people want to be the best. Well, it's difficult to prove to people that you're the best when you're only sitting in Hellfire and the "Create Game" screen 99% of the time. It's really about behavior and the door has been open for a couple weeks now, letting people walk through into [now] meaningless pink item parades.

Maybe as the level cap increases and gear shows more usefulness in regards to in-game utility and character efficiency [character builds being more meaningful], but also with respect to superficial customization [look of your char being somewhat unique], then maybe Farming will be an acceptable way to play the game for all. Parts of this potential hinges on whether or not the economy has survived being diluted and potentially inflated by merchant competitors trying to provide more and more items at lower and lower prices.................

ONLY if gear drop rates are decreased, and ONLY if gear begins to trump skills / stats at higher levels, will Farming be considered a truly respectable activity in the meta-game of PL. Right now as it stands, most people who are farming are doing it because they are either hoarders [completists / expansionists], trying to establish an upper hand economically for later on [next lvl cap, gear patch, etc.], or are very bored yet love the game and have a lot of time to play.

I mean no disrespect to Farmers or anyone who engages in it either unknowingly or knowingly - I myself have farmed at least 20 Frogs [pre-patch] and 20 Hellfires [post-patch]. But every time I did it, I felt like I was cheating myself, cheating the system, and only doing it to help out friends who mindlessly Farm for hours at a time. It's just cheesey, even though cheese is nice.

In my opinion, there are many options here. However, they all need to not only change particular aspects of the game and PvE itself, but also behavior. Specific behaviors and habits can be appreciated or deprecated depending upon the motivators involved. Some very quick and brief options or solutions I have considered [mostly other people's ideas] are -

a- One is "Quick Cash" style maps for any current end-game campaign.

b - Another option is moving dynamic boss spawns deeper into dungeons.

c - Or bosses with additional creeps in the general agro area.

d - Another option involves changing global gear drops. A similar option to this one is just simply tweaking specific mob loot tables, like say bosses.

I don't have any particular solution to recommend, because the real problem is behavior-based and not reward-based. I'm neither a fully accredited psychologist nor a fully professional game designer. I feel the reward or the objective can be modified by the Devs, but the behavior, the habit, the desire for "Farming" can only grow in size, given the current state of the game.

I just feel it in the game itself, I can see it in the playerbase - something needs to be done.

No disrespect was intended in this post and I hope a civil discussion can take place over the possibilities and ramifications of certain implementations.

[Gavry]

Fantastically put. I fully agree with everything you have said.

[Esus]

I would agree, but I've lost a huge amount of interest in the game when the drop rates were nerfed and the prices for crappy items was cut in half. I agree that this is first and formost a phone game, and by no means do I find it enjoyable going through levels hopin for good drops only to have my inventory full of useless stuff that I now have to sell for pennies. Every "boss" should drop something useful, even if it's a purp/blue item, and the whole group should get the same colored item from said boss, not just one pink or blue and the rest being garbage. I mean really, what kinda boss drops crap 99% of the time? You get the same junk from the mobs.

[Synozeer]

There's just not a lot to do in the game once you hit 35 except create new characters and talk. Now we have PvP, but that's not for everyone, and you can't do that all day either.

I do have a suggestion on how to fix the boredom problem and the farming problem - create randomized dungeons. You can have dungeons that are different every time, have different monsters, different treasures, etc. That way you're "farming" while actually "exploring". Each campaign could have it's own randomized dungeon setting, lots of different kinds of monsters, bosses, etc. Not sure how hard this would be to implement, but it would give us something to do and allow us a legit way to gain gold and items.

Pocket Legends is still in its infancy, so I wouldn't expect there to be a zillion things to do right off the bat. I'm sure that over time, they'll be plenty more to do, especially since Spacetime does listen to us and makes changes/additions to the game constantly and regularly.

[Rannos]

I also have to agree and after today's patch, I think STS is heading in the right direction. The problem is that there is not much diversity in content. If you are level 35, you play Ancient Swamps. I think it would be very beneficial and efficient for the devs to not only create a true 'Mini-Dungeon' with extremely difficult mobs in Ancient Swamps, but also create a level 35 'Mini-Dungeon' in LE, FC, BF etc. The time and energy it would take to boost the level of the mobs in Mega Maze is negligible and it would create variety in what is being played. The Zombie Saintly Shield is hands down the best shield in-game. Why not have a level 35 LE map that may drop a Frozen Saintly Shield? I don't want to get in to ideas on what gear would be awesome, but a challenge outside of AS would be great. As Alien Oasis comes out, I strongly urge the devs to create a second campaign pack that allows players to revisit old dungeons and areas that are tougher, more challenging, and different than current-level-max dungeons. Farming is going to happen no matter what, but giving players variety--even if it is similar to previous dungeons--will create more income for STS as well as keep your fan base strong. Some players will complain that the extra money is too much, but they don't need to buy the extra dungeon to keep progressing.

[Diz]

Synozeer - Adding Rogue-like elements to the basic core concepts of PL's PvE would be an absolutely EPIC success. It would raise the replay value of the game exponentially. However, it could be a nightmare to program correctly, and balancing it in the game could be a different monster altogether. Awesome idea, though.

PS - Rannos, forking PvE dungeons into two different groups or paths for each campaign could also be a boon for replayability. It would at least give players a little extra content that isn't a huge coding hurdle each time they raise cap / make a new campaign.

[Mobdropper]

You can be as anti-farming as you want, and call it shallow and juvenile - but have you ever played another mmo before?

There's such a thing as end game content, and raiding to kill boss mobs. We have none of this in PL so far, so we as players have to make due and come up with our own creative ways of doing things. Especially since going 30-35 in swamps the first time was a headache enough. Swamps is flawed in that it is laid out so open, which does not allow for boss loot drops along the way of natural progression to level completion. Unlike Lost Expedition, where there are many big blue 'ogres' along the way that provide boss loot, and are close enough to one another to provide a player a reason to continue through the map and finish the instance.

The farmers were simply tired of the horrible swamp pink drop rate, the laggy cooking pots, insane HP of croc mages, and very few boss tier loot drops vs time spent - so we needed a better solution. The double crap item drops that sell for half was also a problem. I personally would rather have crap drops cut in half from the way they were, and the items sell for double. No one uses the stuff anyway. In fact, why not remove all crap drops and significantly increase the gold drops from trash mobs??? Boom, problem fixed. But I digress, farmers were lv35 players that have been level 35 long enough, that we had to come up with a reason to keep playing the game. Finding unique or new ways to play maps, and changing how we approached certain situations was the only solution we could come up with. I would have quit long ago if I had not been able to farm and had to clear swamps every time for 1 to 2% pink drop rate.

The idea of the game is to have fun, and better your character. Through levels and items. IE be rewarded for the time and $$$ you have spent - not grinding away at 90+ trash mobs for an orange drop (if you're lucky).

And like tallonzek said, if you don't want to farm: MAKE YOUR OWN GAME. It's really easy btw. Use the '?' help button to find out how.

[Furrawn]

You can be as anti-farming as you want, and call it shallow and juvenile - but have you ever played another mmo before?

There's such a thing as end game content, and raiding to kill boss mobs. We have none of this in PL so far, so we as players have to make due and come up with our own creative ways of doing things. Especially since going 30-35 in swamps the first time was a headache enough. Swamps is flawed in that it is laid out so open, which does not allow for boss loot drops along the way of natural progression to level completion. Unlike Lost Expedition, where there are many big blue 'ogres' along the way that provide boss loot, and are close enough to one another to provide a player a reason to continue through the map and finish the instance.

The farmers were simply tired of the horrible swamp pink drop rate, the laggy cooking pots, insane HP of croc mages, and very few boss tier loot drops vs time spent - so we needed a better solution. The double crap item drops that sell for half was also a problem. I personally would rather have crap drops cut in half from the way they were, and the items sell for double. No one uses the stuff anyway. In fact, why not remove all crap drops and significantly increase the gold drops from trash mobs??? Boom, problem fixed. But I digress, farmers were lv35 players that have been level 35 long enough, that we had to come up with a reason to keep playing the game. Finding unique or new ways to play maps, and changing how we approached certain situations was the only solution we could come up with. I would have quit long ago if I had not been able to farm and had to clear swamps every time for 1 to 2% pink drop rate.

The idea of the game is to have fun, and better your character. Through levels and items. IE be rewarded for the time and $$$ you have spent - not grinding away at 90+ trash mobs for an orange drop (if you're lucky).

And like tallonzek said, if you don't want to farm: MAKE YOUR OWN GAME. It's really easy btw. Use the '?' help button to find out how.

Exactly! I just learned to farm properly a few days ago. I love it right now because it's a NEW gameplay... I was getting tired of the same old same old... AND as added incentive, I didn't really have any pinks before farming despite playing a lot... But, first and foremost is the game became fresh...


A dungeon filled w bosses would be great for everyone! Win-Win.

People should be able to play how they want if it's their game. If someone doesn't like it, they can start their own game...The difference in players preferences are part of what keeps the game interesting

[Diz]

Mobdropper - Really? Have I ever played another MMO before? I would hope my wording made it clear that I am not just a random person who "doesn't like to farm". Of course I've played MMOs before. For more than 13 years now... a lot of them... moving on...

I am anti-farming as far as farming is concerned in PL. The context of this is tied to this particular game. Farming in PL is not the same as say, WoW. Or Darkfall. Or EQ. Or UO. It's not like I am anti-farming in Farmville; not that I've ever played. I am anti-farm in SimCity games, however. Those are a totally aesthetic drain.

There is end game content in PL. It is [currently] Ancient Swamps and the PvP maps. First, let me cover the PvP part -

PvP in this particular game is based on level cap. Almost all level-based online games have the highest level of competition at the level cap with regards to PvP. There are also examples of games like WoW that foster a niche gameplay such as Twinks, but that's not important here.

Ancient Swamps is the PvE end game content; a raid is not based upon some arbitrary number, like say forty. What constitutes a raid and what constitutes a group is not really the issue here. In fact, that's not at play at all since we're talking about PL and it's current state and short-term future. What is the issue is the runaway behavior and lack of concern for participating in PvE while respecting the spirit of original intent and design. While I have already placed some blame on Spacetime for providing the window of opportunity for some players to foster this "farming" mentality that can be destructive to more than just themselves, it is also up to players to decide whether or not they wish to play the game in this manner. If someone is turned off by the game simply because they cannot find or start a sustainable group to make it through all of Ancient Swamps is there prerogative. Maybe the game isn't for them. However, if farming begins to effect other systems within the game, such as the economy, this will have an impact on every player.

If there was a "Quick Cash!" map or a nice 200+ maze of mobs and bosses, that would be absolutely awesome. I, for one, would play it even though PvE is not my bag of donuts. Some other ideas have already been mentioned and other types of motivators to reduce the desire to simply farm Hellfire pinks. There is the issue you and others have brought up of a lack of content, but that's more a concern of replayability value.

I respect your goals of having fun and bettering your character. Most people, myself included, have those as high priorities. My point is that playing a game as it is intended is a lot more fun for all and provides a more stable environment for a larger amount of players. If only some people choose to play the game in a somewhat cheesey manner then it stratifies the playerbase. It's not about who is right or who is wrong, it's about making the game better for all, farming or not.

In my opinion, it's becoming clearer and clearer that there should be dungeons focused on farming, dungeons focused on being hardcore, and dungeons focused on the entire experience. Some of the earlier campaigns had that feeling; Ancient Swamps does not. But I love the challenge of Swamps way more than other campaigns, so it's difficult to gain as much satisfaction from Swamps given the current situation.

Simply putting in a "Quick Cash!" and / or a mega-maze map for Swamps, or the next campaign, would surely help curtail the issue.

[Furrawn]

While I have already placed some blame on Spacetime for providing the window of opportunity for some players to foster this "farming" mentality that can be destructive to more than just themselves, it is also up to players to decide whether or not they wish to play the game in this manner. If someone is turned off by the game simply because they cannot find or start a sustainable group to make it through all of Ancient Swamps is there prerogative. Maybe the game isn't for them.

Ummmmm....
Who made you PL God?

It is unfair to assume that players farm because they can't find or start a sustainable group to make it through the swamps. I have a great group. We all leveled together in the swamps like the first week it was out.

I've only farmed two evenings... But I think it's not a great idea to just judge a group so casually...

[Iambirdman]

Mobdropper=right
Diz=wrong
I played FFXI for a long time so I can tell

[Diz]

Fur the quote you were referring to was in defense of Mob questioning whether or not I was capable of creating a group of my own. If one single person is having trouble finding a group for regular end game PvE then it is their personal problem. If a significant amount of players are having trouble finding a group for regular end game PvE in its intended format without having to play a slimmed down version of item farming, then it is a legitimate issue.

[Furrawn]

Fur the quote you were referring to was in defense of Mob questioning whether or not I was capable of creating a group of my own. If one single person is having trouble finding a group for regular end game PvE then it is their personal problem. If a significant amount of players are having trouble finding a group for regular end game PvE in its intended format without having to play a slimmed down version of item farming, then it is a legitimate issue.

Sorry, Diz

I don't understand why anyone would assume that any person's preference for how they play the game- farmer or not- is a result of not having a group... There's no way that a person's choice for any gameplay is usually as a result of failure to have or find a group. Most players can find other players who are like-minded. And some people may not even WANT a group!

In a short time, I've seen people lambasted for playing the game with purchased plat weapons, farming, etc... I even got nailed in an early post for saying I'm an enchantress who likes to heal and revive the group while also getting to fight & damage enemies. I was told that playing like that ruins a group... Yet, my gameplay made some great new friends who say yay when I join a game....

I'm sorry I fussed at you, Diz...

I think that everyone has the right to their opinion about how PL should be played... I also think that if people want their opinion about gameplay respected, they can't turn around and not respect other's opinions of how to play.

It's like the Robert Fulghum story:

Giants, wizards and dwarfs was the game to play. Being left in charge of about eighty children seven to ten years old, while their parents were off doing parenty things, It's a large-scale version of Rock, Paper and Scissors, and involves some intellectual decision-making. But the real purpose of the game is to make a lot of noise and run around chasing people until nobody knows which side you are on or who won.

Organising a roomful of wired-up gradeschoolers into two teams, explaining the rudiments of the game, achieving consensus on group identity -- all this is a no mean accomplishment, but we did it with a right good will and were ready to go.

The excitement of the chase had reached a critical mass. I yelled out: "You have to decide now which you are - a GIANT, a WIZARD, or a DWARF!"

While the groups huddled in frenzied, whispered consultation, a tug came at my pants leg. A small child stands there looking up, and asks in a small concerned voice, "Where do the Mermaids stand?"
Where do the Mermaids stand?
A long pause. A very long pause.
"Where do the Mermaids stand?" says I.
"Yes. You see, I am a Mermaid."
"There are no such things as Mermaids."
"Oh, yes, I am one!"
She did not relate to being a Giant, a Wizard, or a Dwarf. She knew her category. Mermaid. And was not about to leave the game and go over and stand against the wall where a loser would stand. She intended to participate, wherever Mermaids fit into the scheme of things. Without giving up dignity or identity. She took it for granted that there was a place for Mermaids and that I would know just where.

[Diz]

Of course, Fur, it's all about respecting playstyles.

Different playstyles is key to an MMO with depth; PvP being introduced in 1.2 is a clear signal that Spacetime is encouraging and fostering different playstyles.

However, with respect to PvE in the current end game of Ancient Swamps, there has been a change in the overall styles of gameplay that people participate on regularly. This is mostly due to the workings of the map setups, the boss placements, boss loot tables, and their relation to player motivation at end game given the amount of content and depth in the current game.

I have no doubt that Spacetime have some sort of method they are trying to refine, and we are just beta testers at this point, after all.

[Furrawn]

True...

The gameplay drastically changed when there were no new levels and nothing challenging... My fav group I play with isn't even on much anymore... I think the tedium alone causes people to try new ways of playing until there's more content.
Nothing new? Go on a quest for a pink voodoo wand! Lol I've even tried playing all the campaigns alone just to vary the gameplay which wasn't much fun but I could experiment with dif weapons & skill combos...

Yes- we are def guinea pigs...
But then again, isn't it great that we get to help build this gaming world?

[DirtyAl]

I agree with the farming issue but everyone who has commented on this thread are guilty of farming. I did it on WOW when I leveled cap at 70 and every level 70 did.

The same issue will always come up on PL because of the very low drop rates on pinks with bosses. At least on bosses on hard instances and raids on WOW you were guaranteed to have pink equivalent drops on the bosses. The issue is the playable content is old for level 35 chars. What is left for us to do? Get Pinks we don't have. There should be ultra hard mini dungeons for capped players that reward us. Also where are PVP rewards? That would help PVP tremendously if there was a reward system for winning matches, kills, and etc......

DirtyAl-lvl 35 Tank
DirtyShots-lvl 35 Archer
DirtySpells-lvl 35 Enchant
The Avengers

[Sayishere]

I agree with the farming issue but everyone who has commented on this thread are guilty of farming. I did it on WOW when I leveled cap at 70 and every level 70 did.

The same issue will always come up on PL because of the very low drop rates on pinks with bosses. At least on bosses on hard instances and raids on WOW you were guaranteed to have pink equivalent drops on the bosses. The issue is the playable content is old for level 35 chars. What is left for us to do? Get Pinks we don't have. There should be ultra hard mini dungeons for capped players that reward us. Also where are PVP rewards? That would help PVP tremendously if there was a reward system for winning matches, kills, and etc......

DirtyAl-lvl 35 Tank
DirtyShots-lvl 35 Archer
DirtySpells-lvl 35 Enchant
The Avengers

regarding the pvp rewards alot of people has said it, i assume the devs know about this, its still early yet i hope they do ad rewards (its a question of when not if)

[Snarggle]

Excellent point DirtyAl. PVP rewards would definitely work. Do you think if we all spent more money, the developers could produce new content and features faster? I wonder if this game will ever get popular enough that people will pay real cash for items from players on eBay. lol. Who knows. Then we can talk about how many farmers are in the game. I hear the MMOGold people handing out iPhones to poor kids to grab gold and pinks.

[Izbar]

Not everyone likes pvp, everyone wants the best gear. Farming is going to happen. I'm not 35 but I will farm swamps mindlessly for pink drops until my character looks like a 16 year old gone crazy with daddys money. 1 because I want the gear and 2 because I want to go into pvp and compete. I don't exactly know what ur saying it's hurting Diz, if I don't farm at 35 I either go pvp and get facerolled or put down the game for a few weeks until they release a new level.