Red Dragon Slayer question

[Loganayr]

I'm curious. What stat SHOULD I be looking at if not DPS?

Birds do 100,000x the damage? Get out of here!

If you read my previous post you can get an unbiased idea.

The fox hate is quite common in pve, but it's mainly due to most foxes going savage in pve, which is not a good asset.

I'll resummarize to give you a clear idea:

Your damage is based on raw BASE DAMAGE. The DPS is the damage per second dealt by the weapon with autoattack. Since you will use skills 90% of the time you are fighting, the dps doesn't matter. Skills are based off the base damage, the higher the better. However, this is not the only main stat you look at when you are looking at a pve damage char. You must put into account HIT RATING and Crit. Hit rating is actually one of the most important stats for pve output damage, because in this game 100% hit is VERY LOW. You can see this by yourself by hosting any bsm map and look at mobs avoiding almost half your attacks as a savage fox.

In conclusion if you go savage in slayer, your attacks will miss a lot, (your crits too, that are already low in % as savage), your hits will hit for low damage due to the lower base damage, and unfortunately you won't be helping in multiclass combos.

HOWEVER: it is true that lacking roots and other skills necessary for interclass combos you aren't adding much to other classes damage output, however i can assure you that if you learn how to play a full dex fox you can get on par and even outdamage some birds on a single target like red dragon. Fox has 2 solo combos with very fast cooldown; i myself have both bird and fox at 77 and i am a pve fanatic, so i know what i am talking about. However to actually play it correctly you will also need to learn how to keep dragon against wall since in dex asset you WILL have aggro on dragon and if you don't play it right it will either go into lava or will make you go back to corner periodically(which is most pve noob foxes do).

If you want to see how it's done add me ingame

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[Amozite]

Here's some food for thought:
My 76 fox, 157 str and the rest in dex. With a swift bow set + blue ring equipped my damage is 420-460. Keep in mind the fox has an attack buff, so buffed I would do 470-510. Compared to damage in the 300s swift pumps out more dmg. Also, a full dex build would give even more damage with the sacrifice of defence.

[Groaning]

Actually foxes have 3 solo combos
Rabid ham then rabid vixen then ham

Four if you count the extra combo if you use dagger (strike through)

And you call yourself a skilled fox...

Another point when you say "mobs dodge half your Attack with savage"
Dodge isn't based off how much hit you have... Or birds would never hit
Another point foxes have a +90% hit buff giving it almost 200 hit ....

[Loganayr]

I think the guy has already enough confusion for you to put other stuff in. The 3 fox combos are alternate so it's basically 2 you can pull out every X time. As for dodge, i am talking of dodging attacks in pve. The higher the hit, the less the mobs can dodge you. Dodge means they avoid being hit, learn english, and learn pve, you basically told the guy a fox can't pve at high levels, which is only true if he wears savage.
Last but not least, the hit rating skill means losing lots of precious points in the other skills, and it's totally unnecessary if you are geared correctly.
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[End]

Int fox maybe?

[Groaning]

"The higher the hit, the less the mobs can dodge you"

this as far as I'm concerned doesnt apply, or birds would never miss, dodge and hit are two separate things

as for combos i can do all three in around 10 secs ish (if I'm wrong correct me haven't played fox for a while)

following your untrue theory of "The higher the hit, the less the mobs can dodge you" wouldn't max fury = less dodge = more hits = more damage??

i never said "you basically told the guy a fox can't pve at high levels"

i am simply saying that any other class/ set that the fox can use other than str sets, outputs more damage

[Befs]

"The higher the hit, the less the mobs can dodge you"

this as far as I'm concerned doesnt apply, or birds would never miss, dodge and hit are two separate things

as for combos i can do all three in around 10 secs ish (if I'm wrong correct me haven't played fox for a while)

following your untrue theory of "The higher the hit, the less the mobs can dodge you" wouldn't max fury = less dodge = more hits = more damage??

i never said "you basically told the guy a fox can't pve at high levels"

i am simply saying that any other class/ set that the fox can use other than str sets, outputs more damage

Groan is correct.

Hit and dodge are separate variables.

Hit determines the % of time out of 100 that you will miss

The mobs' dodge has nothing to do with hit, Otherwise birds wouldn't get rekt by 60% dodge bears, because birds get like 200 hit while buffed

[Loganayr]

@Groan: honestly your first reply to the fox of this topic was sounding like the typical bird bulling on foxes, that's why my reply. Considering this game is getting less and less new players i think that any new comer is very precious. If the newcomer picks a less pve viable class like fox or rhino, the reaction of old gen players should be of welcome and teaching how to optimize it rather than just giving him the "your class is trash" kind of reply.

As for hit and dodge, basically we're saying the same but what i was trying to tell the guy is that,in pve at least, your damage output takes in account hit/dodge base damage and crit. You can't look at hit or dodge separately.If you reach 100% hit and go forest haven you can see you don't miss, however in bsm the mobs can dodge through their dodge stat but the higher you gear on hit the less you will miss. I'm pretty sure of this mechanic, and afterall it wouldn't make sense raising hit rating to more than 100% if it wasn't for overcoming misses due to target stats. I remember also seeing long ago a post in AL forums saying in that game it applies differently in pve and pvp, i guess it's the same here.

As for combo,just look at rhino: charge + redemption pulls out the same combo as summon+redemption but you can't consider them 2 different combos.

It's also true that fury lets you raise hit dramatically but that really helps only if you are str geared, if you are full dex you will just not need the hit boost from fury that gives you lots of skill points to use on more useful skills. When i first capped my fox i was about to give it up since i was used to bird that's definitely easier to play but than i found out a viable play style for fox too,it hurts fingers much but it works.

Anyway as a matter of fact the topic's op asked for help and in 5 pages of replies there's just half a dozen posts telling him to go full dex and enjoy his class.

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[Groaning]

@Groan: honestly your first reply to the fox of this topic was sounding like the typical bird bulling on foxes, that's why my reply. Considering this game is getting less and less new players i think that any new comer is very precious. If the newcomer picks a less pve viable class like fox or rhino, the reaction of old gen players should be of welcome and teaching how to optimize it rather than just giving him the "your class is trash" kind of reply.

As for hit and dodge, basically we're saying the same but what i was trying to tell the guy is that,in pve at least, your damage output takes in account hit/dodge base damage and crit. You can't look at hit or dodge separately.If you reach 100% hit and go forest haven you can see you don't miss, however in bsm the mobs can dodge through their dodge stat but the higher you gear on hit the less you will miss. I'm pretty sure of this mechanic, and afterall it wouldn't make sense raising hit rating to more than 100% if it wasn't for overcoming misses due to target stats. I remember also seeing long ago a post in AL forums saying in that game it applies differently in pve and pvp, i guess it's the same here.

As for combo,just look at rhino: charge + redemption pulls out the same combo as summon+redemption but you can't consider them 2 different combos.

It's also true that fury lets you raise hit dramatically but that really helps only if you are str geared, if you are full dex you will just not need the hit boost from fury that gives you lots of skill points to use on more useful skills. When i first capped my fox i was about to give it up since i was used to bird that's definitely easier to play but than i found out a viable play style for fox too,it hurts fingers much but it works.

Anyway as a matter of fact the topic's op asked for help and in 5 pages of replies there's just half a dozen posts telling him to go full dex and enjoy his class.

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it is untrue, i was just stating that as a str fox you don't apply as much damage as any other class, recommending him to go sex

i do not consider the one combo as two different one but i do consider summon + hellscream = terror vs weakness and hellscream = terror as two different combos

on that topic foxes have THREE SEPERATE COMBOS they all have different combo names,

i stole this from timelife: Rabit bite + Hamstring = Slam + Rabit bite + Vixen kick = Knock-Out+ Hamstring = Burried THREE SEPERATE COMBOS

now left me ask you this, when you have a bird in your party ham/break becomes useless why not (if str fox) invest the extra points in ham into fury to get to 120+ hit at the least, on the other hand ham barely adds any damage if any to your combos.

as for the hit thing i don't believe thats true, somewhere Physiologic said there was a 80-90 is hit cap
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...-DPS-Crits-etc.
read you, you need it

if the same concept applies then it shouldn't effect what level you or what level set you use

[Loganayr]

Groan, again, my posts are based off my testing and experience.I've been a pve only player since 2011, i disagree on some of the elements on that guide simply because i made the testing myself and got different conclusions on some of the points. Out of output testing i can tell that in a full boss fight having others skills maxed in place of fury ends up giving more overall damage than having those seconds maxed in fury. If you want to understand why and how, just take your fox and do the tests yourself and you will see. I don't see any reason to keep pointing out my views since obviously you don't share it

EDIT: i was looking at the thread you linked, i remember i used to rely much on it back in 2011.I think maybe you should reread it since back in 2011 he was smart enough to find out already how dodge and hit are a mixed algorythm. Of course for hit capping (if there really is one) the values are totally different now on the current pl update.

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[AppleNoob]

Groan, again, my posts are based off my testing and experience.I've been a pve only player since 2011, i disagree on some of the elements on that guide simply because i made the testing myself and got different conclusions on some of the points. Out of output testing i can tell that in a full boss fight having others skills maxed in place of fury ends up giving more overall damage than having those seconds maxed in fury. If you want to understand why and how, just take your fox and do the tests yourself and you will see. I don't see any reason to keep pointing out my views since obviously you don't share it

EDIT: i was looking at the thread you linked, i remember i used to rely much on it back in 2011.I think maybe you should reread it since back in 2011 he was smart enough to find out already how dodge and hit are a mixed algorythm. Of course for hit capping (if there really is one) the values are totally different now on the current pl update.

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Show us your "test" results. I personally don't believe in the fact that you tested the variables.

More so, the values are the same. Space-time Games has no reason to change the core logic of the game itself.

[Loganayr]

It's not even needed to remake tests apple, if you read the guide he already realized back than that hit and dodge work toghether but also noticed that after a certain boost in hit the tests weren't giving a 1:1 result anymore (just simplyfying as it's never 1:1 anyway). He thought the answer was a hit cap, he had made tests with sentinel and other 50 sets back than. Of course today it's unchanged but if you do the tests yourself you obviously will come out with different results with current sets and end game mobs.

Also, to those believing to the hit cap theory, maxing fury on a dex fox would be useless obviously. Basically the thread groaning linked is confirming what i was telling to the thread's op since the very beginning.

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[Groaning]

It's not even needed to remake tests apple, if you read the guide he already realized back than that hit and dodge work toghether but also noticed that after a certain boost in hit the tests weren't giving a 1:1 result anymore (just simplyfying as it's never 1:1 anyway). He thought the answer was a hit cap, he had made tests with sentinel and other 50 sets back than. Of course today it's unchanged but if you do the tests yourself you obviously will come out with different results with current sets and end game mobs.

Also, to those believing to the hit cap theory, maxing fury on a dex fox would be useless obviously. Basically the thread groaning linked is confirming what i was telling to the thread's op since the very beginning.

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May I ask two things?
A) Test results (I trust befs more than you)
B) who's your fox

[Magic Sword]

foxes have no hit debuff like bears mages and bird or even rhinos, which greatly helps the whole teams survivability, as well as almost no aoe dmg which again is extremely useful vs the mobs there. They dont have a team heal like mages and rhinos either so logically foxes are the worst class to have in that map

the stat tests and stat algorithm threads he is talking about were done by physiologic back at the 50 cap i believe, there is no longer a hit cap obviously, and despite what people say hit% over 100% does not subtract off the opponents dodge. I had a few people tell me that. It's just luck, why spacetime would base the primary defense in the game off a stat based entirely on luck, thats another discussion.

[Cavoc]

Str rhinos are the class for you if you like dps

[Groaning]

Str rhinos are the class for you if you like dps

*giving other people dps

[Befs]

[QUOTE=Loganayr;2271116]It's not even needed to remake tests apple, if you read the guide he already realized back than that hit and dodge work toghether but also noticed that after a certain boost in hit the tests weren't giving a 1:1 result anymore (just simplyfying as it's never 1:1 anyway). He thought the answer was a hit cap, he had made tests with sentinel and other 50 sets back than. Of course today it's unchanged but if you do the tests yourself you obviously will come out with different results with current sets and end game mobs.

First. You did no such tests, because if u did, then you would have realized that fury lvl 1 adds a damage buff.

Second. Stop making guesses based off something u read in another games' forums, base off facts.

Third. Proof of 2011 pls

[Loganayr]

Befs i dont know you and but if you dont recognize me from forum name than you dont as well since my main is a bird named loganayreon. Also, if you enjoy trying to act bull with the few friends of yours still active on this dead forum asking tests or implying that i dont play since 2011 you only succeed in derailing this thread that probably already turned away from the game one of the few new players that tried a fox. If you want to see my guides just google my name, they are on my guild's private forums, i even made a slayer guide long ago, not sure if it's indexed on google.

Now my turn to ask:have you actually ever farmed slayer more than a few hundred times with all chars, included fox? I think not since you are probably a pvp player and since you dont seem to see the amount of wrong info that were given out in this thread. You think a 5 base damage increase from fury1 with no other benefit makes a difference? It's probably debatable, i think not anyway. Got any idea of how walling a dragon works with a fox?

I'd love to see all your foxes play slayer lol. That would probably make my day

I dont see reason to keep debating with trolls anyway. If someone wants to see how it's done just look me up in game ;-)

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[Groaning]

i could probably play fox better than you
secondly i dont think any of us recognize you
why farm slayer when you can pvp?

[Loganayr]

There's still a big community of players doing pve only and being addicted to pinks and gold. Those are the ones who should help newbs on pve. There's no doubt you can pvp better but as long as pve goes, considering your replies, it's not your thing ;-)

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