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Thread: STS inadvertently causing ingame 'Classism' in PVE and

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    Default STS inadvertently causing ingame 'Classism' in PVE and

    Dear STS,

    It has become apparent that the direction of the game. Interms of 'type' of events and released gear has caused Classism within the game when it come to PVE

    How can this be?

    When majority of the community acknowledges that among 3 classes one is OP for PVE.
    When events cater to a specific class to achieve better results
    When the released gear does not provide avenues for the least efficient class to catch up with the more OP class

    The community has aknowledged this... Will you?

    More importantly will you take quick action? Meaning no 'we are working on it ' replies that has been said for 2yrs running

    Just my thoughts... Feel free to remove post if it is not i line with TOS.

    Thanks

    Maarkus
    Last edited by Maarkus; 09-21-2015 at 12:42 PM.

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    ^^^ agree, let's vote

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    Would be nice to actually have Warriors be able to hold aggro in PVE.

    Pretty much been spending my time on other games lately, but those games at least have allowed me too see how much of a difference it makes when you have a 'real' tank in your party.

    Would be nice to see that better implemented here, 8^).

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    Default STS inadvertently causing ingame 'Classism' in PVE and

    Quote Originally Posted by Maarkus View Post
    When events cater to a specific class to achieve better results
    this is so true, now we have a cyclic event which comes as frequently as the halley comet from what i see, who will use tanks in the party as a brake in the 24h time window?
    tanks don t need more damage, that would only put them in competition to rogues. tanks need stronger buffs/debuffs (significantly more than pets) and the ability to interrupt attacks to be worthwhile in a party. there simply should be no noteworthy time penalty for having a tank in a party.

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    I fully agree with that. While this was a problem only after a certain level of gear last expansion, no it is a problem all across the board. If you don't have the certain level of gear and pets the warrior is stunned all the time and u die to one hit anyway as his questionable capacity t hold aggro is zero. If u have that certain lvl of gear you just don't need a warrior. The rengol are anti-warrior maps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardbeg View Post
    this is so true, now we have a cyclic event which comes as frequently as the halley comet from what i see, who will use tanks in the party as a brake in the 24h time window?
    tanks don t need more damage, that would only put them in competition to rogues. tanks need stronger buffs/debuffs (significantly more than pets) and the ability to interrupt attacks to be worthwhile in a party. there simply should be no noteworthy time penalty for having a tank in a party.
    Out of thanks, but I fully agree that turning warrior into yet another damage dealer is not the way to go. Not only does it go against the warrior's role in party, it will only exacerbate the dependence on gear and upgrades with focus on damage (which has brought us where we are now, where everything favors rogues) and less emphasis on skills understanding and mastery. It may also perpetuate the whole cycle that ends with buffing map difficulty by increasing enemy hp and dmg. The Ren'gol mobs have unique challenges that, with the right buff/debuff features you suggested for warrior skills, may make warriors necessary in a party. As it is now, tanking Ren'gol means spending a lot of time stunned that, never mind dealing damage, you're lucky if you can still protect your party by taking aggro.

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    Giving warriors more damage isnt the solution, most people agree with that point. But those buffs mentioned, giving the whole party more damage crit etc.
    That might be a solution, the tank would be degraded to a pet which gets used for its nice buffs and sometimes takes a few hits and holds aggro for one or two seconds but that would still get tanks back into PvE.
    Tanks are outcasts and STS hasnt even acknowledged the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oezheasate View Post
    Giving warriors more damage isnt the solution, most people agree with that point. But those buffs mentioned, giving the whole party more damage crit etc.
    That might be a solution, the tank would be degraded to a pet which gets used for its nice buffs and sometimes takes a few hits and holds aggro for one or two seconds but that would still get tanks back into PvE.
    Tanks are outcasts and STS hasnt even acknowledged the issue.
    I think you mean upgraded into a pet from a bummed loner. To me, thats a huge leap.

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    I'm not even a warrior but I absolutely agree. Maarkus and I were discussing this a couple of days ago in the game. These days there is no reason to have a warrior in your party.

    I can remember back in season 3 & 4, the elite dungeons were so hard that without a warrior (or sometimes even 2), you were dead. The boss could one hit anyone very easily, so you needed the warrior there to absorb the damage for the party. These days the bosses just don't hit very hard. In fact, in the Rengol elite dungeons, those big trolls hit harder than the boss does.

    Back in season 3 & 4 though, warriors were OP in PvP. I think what happened is that in an attempt at class balance in PvP, warriors were made to be less OP in terms of armor and health, and while this achieved the desired results for PvP, it has affected PvE.

    I think perhaps this is the solution:

    1) I think the most recent elite dungeons need to be made harder. I think the mobs are hard enough, but the bosses are way too easy. What happens is a party of rogues can just run by most of the mobs and kill the bare minimum necessary to get the boss to spawn, and then beating the boss is a cakewalk. The bosses need to be hard enough that a run without a decent warrior will certainly result in one of more deaths of rogues and/or mages. If every attempt at the boss requires the use of multiple ankhs, then warriors will become more needed.

    2) Along with my suggestion in #1, I think warriors need to have more armor than they currently do. Their armor clearly has not kept up with the other classes over the past 3 seasons. It used to be that warriors had way more armor than the other classes, but now there are some rogues running around with almost as much armor as warriors. I think part of the reason is the armor gems/jewels released over the past year. They provide the same armor to a mage or rogue as they do to a warrior, so technically this provides a much larger percentage boost of armor to a mage or rogue compared to a warrior. The solution here is to do what is done with rogues with their damage in PvE/PvP. Give warriors an armor boost in PvE, but NOT for PvP.

    I think with those 2 adjustments, this will help to fix this class imbalance in PvE without affecting PvP. It will also help fix the economy a bit... it has become so easy and fast to farm these new dungeons with a party of rogues and mages that the legendary items have been falling like rain and most of them have become worthless. This would help restore some of the rarity of these items by making it harder (and slower) to farm these dungeons.
    Last edited by Energizeric; 09-21-2015 at 06:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Energizeric View Post
    I'm not even a warrior but I absolutely agree. Maarkus and I were discussing this a couple of days ago in the game. These days there is no reason to have a warrior in your party.

    I can remember back in season 3 & 4, the elite dungeons were so hard that without a warrior (or sometimes even 2), you were dead. The boss could one hit anyone very easily, so you needed the warrior there to absorb the damage for the party. These days the bosses just don't hit very hard. In fact, in the Rengol elite dungeons, those big trolls hit harder than the boss does.

    Back in season 3 & 4 though, warriors were OP in PvP. I think what happened is that in an attempt at class balance in PvP, warriors were made to be less OP in terms of armor and health, and while this achieved the desired results for PvP, it has affected PvE.

    I think perhaps this is the solution:

    1) I think the most recent elite dungeons need to be made harder. I think the mobs are hard enough, but the bosses are way too easy. What happens is a party of rogues can just run by most of the mobs and kill the bare minimum necessary to get the boss to spawn, and then beating the boss is a cakewalk. The bosses need to be hard enough that a run without a decent warrior will certainly result in one of more deaths of rogues and/or mages. If every attempt at the boss requires the use of multiple ankhs, then warriors will become more needed.

    2) Along with my suggestion in #1, I think warriors need to have more armor than they currently do. Their armor clearly has not kept up with the other classes over the past 3 seasons. It used to be that warriors had way more armor than the other classes, but now there are some rogues running around with almost as much armor as warriors. I think part of the reason is the armor gems/jewels released over the past year. They provide the same armor to a mage or rogue as they do to a warrior, so technically this provides a much larger percentage boost of armor to a mage or rogue compared to a warrior. The solution here is to do what is done with rogues with their damage in PvE/PvP. Give warriors an armor boost in PvE, but NOT for PvP.

    I think with those 2 adjustments, this will help to fix this class imbalance in PvE without affecting PvP. It will also help fix the economy a bit... it has become so easy and fast to farm these new dungeons with a party of rogues and mages that the legendary items have been falling like rain and most of them have become worthless. This would help restore some of the rarity of these items by making it harder (and slower) to farm these dungeons.
    Honestly, an armor buff for warriors will be as useful as the mage mana regen upgrade in lifegiver unless the aggro-holding skills are buffed. A warrior with cs windmill jugg and axe will be lucky to hold aggro of one monster for even 3 seconds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Energizeric View Post
    I'm not even a warrior but I absolutely agree. Maarkus and I were discussing this a couple of days ago in the game. These days there is no reason to have a warrior in your party.

    I can remember back in season 3 & 4, the elite dungeons were so hard that without a warrior (or sometimes even 2), you were dead. The boss could one hit anyone very easily, so you needed the warrior there to absorb the damage for the party. These days the bosses just don't hit very hard. In fact, in the Rengol elite dungeons, those big trolls hit harder than the boss does.

    Back in season 3 & 4 though, warriors were OP in PvP. I think what happened is that in an attempt at class balance in PvP, warriors were made to be less OP in terms of armor and health, and while this achieved the desired results for PvP, it has affected PvE.

    I think perhaps this is the solution:

    1) I think the most recent elite dungeons need to be made harder. I think the mobs are hard enough, but the bosses are way too easy. What happens is a party of rogues can just run by most of the mobs and kill the bare minimum necessary to get the boss to spawn, and then beating the boss is a cakewalk. The bosses need to be hard enough that a run without a decent warrior will certainly result in one of more deaths of rogues and/or mages. If every attempt at the boss requires the use of multiple ankhs, then warriors will become more needed.

    2) Along with my suggestion in #1, I think warriors need to have more armor than they currently do. Their armor clearly has not kept up with the other classes over the past 3 seasons. It used to be that warriors had way more armor than the other classes, but now there are some rogues running around with almost as much armor as warriors. I think part of the reason is the armor gems/jewels released over the past year. They provide the same armor to a mage or rogue as they do to a warrior, so technically this provides a much larger percentage boost of armor to a mage or rogue compared to a warrior. The solution here is to do what is done with rogues with their damage in PvE/PvP. Give warriors an armor boost in PvE, but NOT for PvP.

    I think with those 2 adjustments, this will help to fix this class imbalance in PvE without affecting PvP. It will also help fix the economy a bit... it has become so easy and fast to farm these new dungeons with a party of rogues and mages that the legendary items have been falling like rain and most of them have become worthless. This would help restore some of the rarity of these items by making it harder (and slower) to farm these dungeons.
    Thank you Maarkus for bringing up this great discussion. This discussion unfortunately has been brought up many times by great warriors like Maarkus and countless other warriors as well. Just seems to fall on death ears or STG doesn't feel this issue is important enough for them to do much about and instead they go on trying to make watered-down new content that has failed miserably. You can just tell when you log on and see empty towns and empty friends list.

    I agree with Energ about increasing warriors armor and increasing the damage dealt by the bosses. This is a viable way to increase warriors need in PVE. But these two things have to happen together to make any sense. A good prime example of how STG has tried to limit warriors armor to balance out PVP is look at the new mythic armor set. How is it that warriors gain almost the same amount of armor increase if they get the mythic helm and armor (compared to the crate legendary 46 helm and armor) as a rogue or even mage for that matter? Go look at Ravagers comparison of the mythic set. Warriors literally only gain extra 12 armor compared to rogues and mages. What kinda sense is that?

    see below for link to Ravager's mythic set comparison
    http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...hic+comparison
    Last edited by Midievalmodel; 09-21-2015 at 09:32 PM.

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    In my opinion the design of the Rengol maps is a huge fail in general and no matter what buff you apply to tanks, they will remain useless in these maps.

    Buffing mobs and bosses further won't help either. Actually, I think it will make matters even worse. We already have enough bosses that can one-hit rogues and mages. Which ones exactly require a warrior?

    If I were the devs, I'd try this:

    1. Fix the brutes, so that they can't randomly one-hit out of nowhere (including tanks).
    2. Fix the gladiator, so that he doesn't shield himself.
    3. Most importantly - increase the leash ranges of all Rengol mobs, so that you can't just skip the hardest ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatman View Post
    In my opinion the design of the Rengol maps is a huge fail in general and no matter what buff you apply to tanks, they will remain useless in these maps.

    Buffing mobs and bosses further won't help either. Actually, I think it will make matters even worse. We already have enough bosses that can one-hit rogues and mages. Which ones exactly require a warrior?

    If I were the devs, I'd try this:

    1. Fix the brutes, so that they can't randomly one-hit out of nowhere (including tanks).
    2. Fix the gladiator, so that he doesn't shield himself.
    3. Most importantly - increase the leash ranges of all Rengol mobs, so that you can't just skip the hardest ones.
    I disagree with you. I don't know Tata if you played during the nordr elite days. Warriors were definitely needed in those maps and mobs and bosses one hit everyone. The only problem now is there are ankhs but I still think it would make parties wanna run with warriors if they are using too many ankhs.

    What the real issue here is this. STG needs to make these maps harder but at the same time decrease the amount of ingredients needed to craft the mythic gear and arcane pets to balance out the difficulty of these maps. Right now the trend is for easy maps with repeated large volumes of easy runs to obtain large volumes of ingredients required. Guess who this favors.....you guessed it....dps classes. This will only exclude all warriors from any pve party.

    I do agree with you about increasing the leash range of the mobs. But STG wont do it because of lag issues. So its a mute point.
    Last edited by Midievalmodel; 09-21-2015 at 09:40 PM.

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    I believe the inclination of pets are to blame for most of the imbalances in the game, in addition to the primitive skill system that's been around since release.

    The game has become too dependant on pets. You can't progress very efficiently without investing in expensive pets. You can have poor gear with a nekro and still demolish those with decent gear and superior skill.

    Nothing new and exciting has been added to the skill system. The reason rogues are progressing faster than the other classes is the fact that all of their skills reflect upon their damage. It's their sole purpose, and with each expansion increasing the damage cap, their skills are also getting better and better. Their simple one-target kill system is on par with the increasingly difficult mob difficulty.

    Mages are the support class, yet their "support skills" need to constantly be redetermined each time something new comes to the game, otherwise they fall under the belt. What was good in the beginning of the game isn't going to fly towards the end. The same goes for the warriors. Their attacks were more useful in brackenridge than they are in the planar or garetta content.

    Each class needs to be dissected and reconstructed. We need new skills that are beneficial and on par with the current game standards. Especially when pets are evolving faster than we are.

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    I can still remember the good ol' days when people actually said "need tank" in guild chat. Now it's only "need dps" or mostly "need rogue".

    It's crossed my mind before to give warriors skills that boost stats that would make them more desireable to run with. For example, lets take the skill Rally Cry. Probably the most useless skill in the game that practically nobody uses. If it were buffed to give +50 all stats, +10% crit, and +15% armor (example stats, idk what would really be "fair") to all party members in range, a warrior would be much more wanted in runs. Also, if the buffs of jugg were able to be given to all party members, it would make a huge impact with a warrior in the party (dmg reduction, stun immunity, heal). These are only suggestions, and more ideas would be cool. At least make a warrior be able to help his team out, even if he isn't directly doing all the damage himself. Unfortunantly, these ideas will never happen because they would mess up pvp too much (which seems to be the only thing that matters in this game). Until then, warriors are gonna have to sit out of pve, as they have become less and less needed and used over the seasons. I totally agree with the OP in that class balance right now is a major issue in pve (idk about pvp cuz I dont pvp) and I hope devs read his post because people still care about and enjoy pve.

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    All these war threads and not 1 rep,y from sts smh

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    The fact that rogues are nerfed in pvp and are still op, should be clear that they are even more OP in pve because they can use pots. They don't have to worry about running out of mana, which is their only weakness

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    The amount of warriors needed in a pt equals the amount of ducks sts gives about warriors.
    Think about this situation:a popular youtuber decides to give AL a visit.He decides to choose the warrior,cause,obviously everyone wants to play as the big guy with muscles.What would his reaction be when he finds out that the big guy is more useless than apple maps?And of course,about pvp,cause AL pvp sucks.*cough*cough*matchmaking system*cough*cough*
    So yeah,buff the warriors ASAP!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPrime View Post
    Would be nice to actually have Warriors be able to hold aggro in PVE.

    Pretty much been spending my time on other games lately, but those games at least have allowed me too see how much of a difference it makes when you have a 'real' tank in your party.

    Would be nice to see that better implemented here, 8^).
    This is indeed a major class defing rile that the warrior need to have, in which it was originally intended but due to game progression has been lost in the developement.

    A warriors primary role is to hold aggro and not kill everything that moves... We all agree to that but the current mechanism of the threat meter is not compensating for the massive dmg output of the other classes.

    Numerous suggestions have been proposed to achieve this but i belive STS is afraid of creating imbalance which is reasonable . I think an intial attempt to solve this was to add DOT to skyward smash, unfortunately other classes have imense damage output that they easily steal aggro and overite the threat meter.

    If controling the damage output of a warrior is a concern then why not approach taunts in a different perspective?

    Taunt Over Time - Proposed suggestion which does not involve altering damage out put
    1.0 taunts are release periodically per taunt upgrade equiped in skill in the skill bar
    1.1 meaning for every taunt updade the warrior hass he will disperse taunts every 4seconds... Continously whether or not the skill is pressed or not.
    1.2 a second upgrade selected meaningi have taunt in HOR andi then select a taunt upgrade in the chest splitter skill ... Another second will be shaved of the taunt dispersing time... Meanint the warrior will taunt every 3seconds, and so on meaning if i have 4 taunt updrages selected the warrior will disperse taunts every second.

    This does not affect the threat meter in any way, a dmg/dps toon that crits massively will still steall aggro but a warrior can regain it 1-3seconds later .

    This also prevents altering skill cool. Down times not affecting the hor release and attack skill release.

    Thanks for reading

    maarkus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardbeg View Post
    this is so true, now we have a cyclic event which comes as frequently as the halley comet from what i see, who will use tanks in the party as a brake in the 24h time window?
    tanks don t need more damage, that would only put them in competition to rogues. tanks need stronger buffs/debuffs (significantly more than pets) and the ability to interrupt attacks to be worthwhile in a party. there simply should be no noteworthy time penalty for having a tank in a party.

    This suggestion also goes well with warrior development.

    Why alter stats when the real problem is inefficient skills. Why would a dmg/dps class want another class if they will just have the same function?

    Anther aproach to this is to have party buffs and appropriate skills as Ardbeg mentions.

    Chest splitter staggering blow has a cancel windup upgrade which has not been in play since season 3. At one point in time this was a Warrior's key skill agains Jarl in lock farming. Imagine if Warriors can preempt red zones from mobs and bosses. More importantly this was already coded, all sts has to do is reactivate the upgrade not causing too much deviation in game play but altering map runs massively

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