Juggernaut Change Discussion

[Carapace]

Hello everyone!

I have put together an idea on how to modify the Juggernaut ability for the future of AL based on the communities desire to see changes. Given the nature of this change, we feel it wise to discuss it openly beforehand and see if the community likes the idea as much as we do.

Please leave constructive feedback in the thread below!

The Concerns

From my perspective and understanding, the Juggernaut ability has two main concerns. One is the early game PvP implications associated with a direct 300 HP or 500 HP boost, as this is no joke at early levels. The other concern is that higher end players see not as much benefit as maximum health climbs to the 3, 4 and 5 thousand mark. As more levels become available and more health as a result we will begin to see the bonus of this skill dwindle until it is deemed worthless from diminishing returns which we don't want to see.

The Adjustment

The planned adjustment is to grant the warrior a maximum HP boost that scales based on your armor value. This is more interesting than a flat % of max health, or % based on level scalar in that it now has a synergy potential with armor stated items, jewels, and pets. As a % of armor obviously it will be subject to increases based on external buffs and the like provided by other player skills and pet activated abilities where appropriate. Here are a few examples of how the health bonus would scale based on your level and approximate armor values.

• Tap - 10% Armor as health
• Charge - 16.5% Armor as health

Note that this is representative without jewels of any kind, without pets, and using the 5/5 Armor bonus passive and legendary gear. This 5% armor boost seems like a few points well spent and obviously complimentary given this change. A sword and shield used for the weapon slot to maximize armor from gear on hand. All gear used was purchased through the Store packs as a baseline. Again, all armor values here are more or less approximate based on testing and not a mean, average, or other related data point.



The final level 46 entry here denotes more "end game" gear. Mythic and arcane gear compared to store bought legendary gear at 46.

Expectations

What we anticipate this change to do, is provide players with new combinations of pets/gear/jewels in order to find their comfort zone related to this skill as it applies to their play style and net health benefit. We also expect it to have an effect on low level PvP more than high level PvP, and our focus is on the whole system and not specific brackets of play. The potential range given these values as you can see still puts players in the 300 HP and 500 HP bonus like current Juggernaut does once you approach max level, with some wiggle room based on personal gear and related choices. As higher levels become available the amount of HP potential will continue to grow appropriately.

So, thoughts?

[Arrowz]

I like it. Juggernaut will make twinks less invincible when they use it

[Madnex]

Not bad. I like the idea with armor because it incorporates more thought on skill/pet combinations and rewards the defensive builds (which is what needs improvement). The problem is that it this solution solely addresses the issue of unbalanced stat buffs in low level PvP while the prominent issue with warriors is their PvE inefficiency and uselessness.

That aside, I think it should scale a bit more aggressively because of:
-The max HP's at end-game being closer to 7, 8 and 9k (not 4, 5, 6). There's no need to lower end-game PvP tank's survivability.

-The plethora of armor debuffs in the PvP environment. In combination with how debuffs override buffs and can stack on each other, anything but raw added armor is at best unreliable (eg. Aimed Shot's 15% armor debuff can be kept up 100% of the time -- basically, PvP is synonymous with rogues and rogues are synonymous with AS).

----------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't this work better if it scaled with base STR?
It could also help eliminate the issue of twinks receiving Happiness Bonuses from pets designed for end-game (eg. Abaddon below L10 is seriously OP with 110 armor). And before someone asks, base STR does not include pets' HB.

[Newcomx]

What is the purpose of this change? PVE wise is useless, to add more health as Warr health & armor already "more than enough" in this current map. Adding Jugg in Warr skill slot only sacrificing 1 attack skill (IMO...nobody want to replace VB with Jugg).

I suggest for next Jug improvement to add Party Buff (in pt mode, not random map entrance), so it will bring back warr to PVE environment.

[Poiwed]

This is probably the worst thing you could do to tanks considering that end game tanks are complaining about how it has too long of a cooldown compared to the time its in effect and it doesnt help much in pvp. Rogues can still one shot end game tanks through jugg it makes no sense that youll nerf it for twink mages and rogues while end games need it buffed. Why bother raising the level cap if all you guys do is focus on what twinks want while the ones that are capped are complaining about it needing buffed so warriors will actually be useful.

[Aserockon]

As others are saying ,
This just makes tanks better in PvP but their main problem is PvE

[Zeus]

The idea is not great, because it puts tanks at the vulnerability of rogue skills. Aimed shot has an incorporated armor debuff so with this system, not only will most tanks have their overall survivability decreased but they will also be at the mercy of rogue and nekro's 15-20% armor debuff.

I would suggest, if you are going to implement this system...a far more aggressive layout or the ability to have jugg ignore these armor debuffs when returning health/boosting health. As mentioned before, the boost has to be far bigger anyways even when not taking into account the various armor debuffs.

[Carapace]

These are good discussion points. If the primary concern is also the PvP effect of armor debuffs from Rogues and some PvE content, I have another idea that may help.

A charged Juggernaut provides immunity to armor debuff effects and removes any current armor debuffs from themselves would help, as an added component to one of the upgrade skills. This, in theory would alleviate the major down point to this change similar to what Zeus is describing. The casting warrior would receive the immunity for the duration of the buff, and nearby allies could receive a one off cleansing of armor reducing debuffs. It could be reapplied of course by a follow up aimshot, but could prove circumstantially relevant.

A secondary consideration with the scale increase per level is possible, however some numbers would have to be crunched to see what that would look like at an exaggerated level cap.

Good thoughts, keep the feedback coming.

[Arrowz]

ive been saying for awhile that warrior skills need to scale more. They are absurd at lower lvls but much less impressive at higher lvls. like the 50 Str buff on venge. So making jugg scale is a step in the positive direction but some potential changes are:

1. more aggressive scaling
2. make it scale off of base armor, so debuffs dont hurt the skill itself.

+1 to the idea of scaling though

[rustygun]

The idea is not great, because it puts tanks at the vulnerability of rogue skills. Aimed shot has an incorporated armor debuff so with this system, not only will most tanks have their overall survivability decreased but they will also be at the mercy of rogue and nekro's 15-20% armor debuff.

I would suggest, if you are going to implement this system...a far more aggressive layout or the ability to have jugg ignore these armor debuffs when returning health/boosting health. As mentioned before, the boost has to be far bigger anyways even when not taking into account the various armor debuffs.

Yes Zeus I agree %100

[Kingofninjas]

Carapace,
Apart from what Zeus said about the basically permanent armor debuff (in PvP), your numbers are WAY off for the health increase that juggernaut gives. At lvl 46, without jewels, gems or passive, tanks will be hitting 2700 armor or less, which would amount to a 450 hp increase. I don't exactly see how that is a buff. They get 500 hp now, and they need more hp, not less. I would suggest a blanket TRIPLE of the health values, or hold off on this idea till tanks are hitting between 7-8k armor (maybe 10 seasons from now should the game have that many expansions).

[rustygun]

Also please don't overlook the 45 sec CD time.. Longest skill to CD on all toons

[Caabatric]

I don't see where this will help wars,(maybe it will I just dont see it)
MY thoughts to jugg are
1. Charged jugg applies heavy slow
2. Charged jugg applies 30% damage for 5 seconds to party if tank is below 30% health

I feel these 2 would be significant enough to help in both pve and pvp. I can't say about the health v armor stat gain comparison though they seem very similiar

[rustygun]

Also I can't recover from charged heal alone if HP drop %25 still die like I never heal 45 sec CD on jug make this a wide gap

[Hunter16]

Finally we get proof that the "buff wars" was actually seen by someone.

Anyway, the adjustments as seen on first post will actually nerf warriors in pvp. Warriors at high levels don't have 3k armor, and neither 3-4-5k health. Warriors have around 2.2k-2.9k armor on average, and from 7k to 9k hp.

But as I'm not into pvp and don't even use Juggernaut at all, this is not going help warriors be efficient in PvE.

What warriors need is a reason to get Party Invites to run elite maps.

The Glintstone Aegis proc is the only way a Warrior can run maps fast enough, but that weapon is not available at lower levels, not everyone has the gold go afford it, and new weapons will probably have different procs, so this is only temporary.

That doesn't mean a Warrior with Glintstone Aegis is useful, it's just like a fat mage with lower attack, and still very bad as we deal little to no damage when the opponents have large health amounts or armor (elite Northal for example).

What I suggest is that you help us get useful in PvE, as we have a hard time to find parties to run maps. That leads to warriors staying in towns like stray dogs, poor and never having fun.

Thanks for reading and good luck.

[rustygun]

I don't see where this will help wars,(maybe it will I just dont see it)
MY thoughts to jugg are
1. Charged jugg applies heavy slow
2. Charged jugg applies 30% damage for 5 seconds to party if tank is below 30% health

I feel these 2 would be significant enough to help in both pve and pvp. I can't say about the health v armor stat gain comparison though they seem very similiar

The fact that jugg is a damage taking skill making it deflect damage back to attackers could work too..

[Franocazzzo]

Atm this is a horrible idea and I would rather stay with my jugg as the way it is. This would demolish all undergeared tanks.

[Niixed]

Hello everyone!

The Adjustment

The planned adjustment is to grant the warrior a maximum HP boost that scales based on your armor value. This is more interesting than a flat % of max health, or % based on level scalar in that it now has a synergy potential with armor stated items, jewels, and pets. As a % of armor obviously it will be subject to increases based on external buffs and the like provided by other player skills and pet activated abilities where appropriate. Here are a few examples of how the health bonus would scale based on your level and approximate armor values.

• Tap - 10% Armor as health
• Charge - 16.5% Armor as health

Note that this is representative without jewels of any kind, without pets, and using the 5/5 Armor bonus passive and legendary gear. This 5% armor boost seems like a few points well spent and obviously complimentary given this change. A sword and shield used for the weapon slot to maximize armor from gear on hand. All gear used was purchased through the Store packs as a baseline. Again, all armor values here are more or less approximate based on testing and not a mean, average, or other related data point.

....

So, thoughts?

Juggernaut's lengthy cooldown means it is essentially a single-use skill in any given pvp battle. It's great to see the health boost portion skill finally be made scalable. My concern with attaching the scale to the armor value (other than the ridiculous permanent aimed shot debuff mentioned by Madnex) is that it would end up being confusing. Players would be stuck having to make a complex calculation to determine the actual benefit to them personally. It may be less interesting, but I support the level scalar where the health benefit is based on level. Straightforward is better when you're spec-ing in game, both for new players and veterans.

Another thought is that it seems disruptive, unfair and upsetting to take away almost all of the expected benefit that shark (lower level pvp) warriors have had for years. If this change had been made during the level 26 cap you'd hear justified accusations that STS was nerfing warriors. Imagine the outcry retroactively... yikes! I think pinning the 300/500 health benefit to a 'fair' level like level 21 may be a possible solution.

	Tap (+10/lvl)	Charge (tap*1.66)
1	100	167
6	150	250
11	200	333
16	250	417
21	300	500
26	350	583
31	400	667
36	450	750
41	500	833
46	550	917

[rustygun]

Juggernaut's lengthy cooldown means it is essentially a single-use skill in any given pvp battle. It's great to see the health boost portion skill finally be made scalable. My concern with attaching the scale to the armor value (other than the ridiculous permanent aimed shot debuff mentioned by Madnex) is that it would end up being confusing. Players would be stuck having to make a complex calculation to determine the actual benefit to them personally. It may be less interesting, but I support the level scalar where the health benefit is based on level. Straightforward is better when you're spec-ing in game, both for new players and veterans.

Another thought is that it seems disruptive, unfair and upsetting to take away almost all of the expected benefit that shark (lower level pvp) warriors have had for years. If this change had been made during the level 26 cap you'd hear justified accusations that STS was nerfing warriors. Imagine the outcry retroactively... yikes! I think pinning the 300/500 health benefit to 'fair' level like level 21 may be a possible solution.

	Tap (+10/lvl)	Charge (tap*1.66)
1	100	167
6	150	250
11	200	333
16	250	417
21	300	500
26	350	583
31	400	667
36	450	750
41	500	833
46	550	917

I hope sometime in the very near future developers seriously address Aimed Shot. This one skill is responsible for nearly all claims of class imbalance and all the drama has come with them. It gives rogues insanely overpowered damage output that will only get worse with each level cap. I've heard comments like: "...rename the game to Rogue Legends." AS is a game-breaker that's never been seriously addressed. Juggernaut isn't nearly enough to balance out AS, but it should be.

I'm a tank and I'm saying leave aim shot alone.. I hate nerfing and to be honest we don't want to to make any toon weaker but match them in strength and skills.. "One time use skill!!!!" Aim shot and NOX bolt CD 3sec jug last about 4-5 if no break taking heavy damage for the duration of 40 sec aim shot and NOx rain on you...

[rustygun]

As I said before rogues and mage are equally matched good calculation and skills determined result of equally geared players nerfing rogue in anyway will give mage an advantage.. This discussion is not about nerfing another toon stay on track please folks we talking about jugg...