Juggernaut Change Discussion

[greekAL]

First. I'm not sure cara is getting a proper thanking for at least trying.

Second, here is my summary of additions.

1. What Zues said, would be best as charge = no debuffs

2. Party damage buff based off of how low tank's health is (lower = more damage) not going more than a 30% buff

3. More aggressive scaling

4. Shorter cd!!

i agree with 1/3/4 but the 2 only for pve right?

[Excuses]

It took me a while to understand because this is just a nerf, not a buff at all..

We already have 500 hp then now we will get lower hp, even we make it better it's gonna be about 100 more hp out of 10k hp. I don't see any point of this change.

Many people already suggested good points.
Hp scaled by hp sound fair too me too. But then 1.6% will be little bit too high. (because 15lv can already have 3k hp and then there will be no difference in twinks too. No point to have this change. Should be 0.06 on no charge and 0.12 on charge. Or 0.5/1)
Immune armor reducion is a good idea too for pvp.

But if we are talking about pve, I would rather want to have 50% AOE armor reducion on jugg and 30-35 sec cool down for pve only. And also scaled vg for more dmg and balance.
The problem is that tank dmg is too low to slow down runs. Simply having more hp will not help anything here.



So I would suggest jugg to give hp and armor based on dmg, not armor or hp.
Just let it give pure dmg stat to ho and armor.

100 dmg = 100 hp + 100 armor
1k dmg = 1000 hp + 10000 armor.

And give tanks dmg mythic weapons with fair armor(100-150)

This way, low lvl tanks will not be immortal, and end game tanks will get fair survivability with fair dmg.

Don't be afraid to give tanks little dmg. Even with 1k dmg tanks don't make enough dmg to make the run faster because actual dmg outcome is bugged.
Rogue should have high dmg, crit and Dodge, not hp and armor. But now they do so they don't need tanks.
But tanks still have no dmg and not even fair survivability. In the same way, giving tanks dmg will be standardized classes. No rogues and mages will want to lose their armor and hp. Don't take it from them but give tanks dmg so they can play pve and get some kills in pvp.

[Arrowz]

This is great, however as mentioned before...the values you are currently proposing still need to be buffed up by 5-10% IMO. Otherwise, it just makes lower level tanks too weak and only fixes end game.

So, tanks would essentially gain a 400ish armor boost, depending on their level of armor while jugg being close to the static numbers it used to have (at end game). I think, this, will be an appropriate buff for tanks. It is not as if this makes tanks unkillable, it just makes them almost unstoppable while on this skill which is the intention of a skill named juggernaut.

Anyone looking to kill a tank now will have to adjust their skill timings to know when to do damage and when not to.

On PVE side, I think this would be welcome as well.

+1 for me.

Thanks for taking my advice into account!

Juggernaut is already absurd at lower lvls atleast for pvp. It should be weaker at lower lvls and stronger at higher lvls, hence the scaling.

On my old lvl 18 warrior, had 4k health and 800 armor, the rest of my team died and I popped jugg. I literally survived 1v5 for 10 seconds while the rest of my team regrouped and we wiped the enemy after that. And this was before nekro shield.

I agree with the armor reduction immunity tho. I think if jugg is going to give armor or reflect dmg or some of the other things people have proposed, there needs to be seperate buffs for pve and pvp. Juggernaut giving armor and reflecting dmg would be ridiculous in pvp

[Niixed]

The Mage buffs came due to aimed shot's capabilities. Nerf that and everything else has to go backwards as well. Don't forget that lightning hits pretty dang hard these days too - enough to one combo me.

Bah. I removed the AS comment from my original post too late...

I don't necessarily advocate nerfing AS, more that its mechanics should be put under real scrutiny in relation to class balance and overall game balance. Like Jugg, AS seems like a skill designed for the game in its infancy. Insufficient thought was put into scalability. Part of the problem with AS is that crit is also tied to dexterity which means it's ever-increasing. How close are we to having critical values for engame rogues reach 100% if they haven't already? What's the point of having a critical stat if rogues always crit all of the time? Crit is just one issue though...

I could go on, but I wont because I want to respect the original subject of the thread.

[twoxc]

all the feed back are great and all but this still doesn't seem like it's gonna change warrior game play in PVE in any way. warrior players want to be wanted and needed in PVE and farm faster and better, not survivability in PVP. To me PVP is a GIVEN not a MUST HAVE. Everyone want to farm and earn gold faster and get rich to work toward their gears to improve their stats in equipments, such as the glinstone set and enjoy the bonus of it etc etc.

I agreed with Serancha, warrior need to hold aggro better and need something to drastically to make them wanted to speed up the farming process. need more party BUFF stuff with great perks that they are a must have in party.

I'm sure with great skills and perks that come with warrior will also change the whole game play with record and such, which will also be great as the record board will then spread among all 3 classes require to set best time rather then just mainly rogues. it's for the greater good, rather then just PvP changes which is still just a GIVEN to me. it's something one goes in and play pvp when the farming are in a downtime or one just get tired and need a short break from aggressively farming.

just my two cents xD.

[Tatman]

Imo, this looks like it's being suggested with one sole purpose - to nerf (ok, "balance") the low level twink tanks. I agree it's ridiculous down there with unkillable tanks and such, especially with some of these new moronic pets like the fake sns, but is this really the main issue with the warrior class at the moment? As proposed, I find this a useless change for endgame tanks in both pvp and pve.

[mesalin]

Hmmm i like the idea of make jugg better. I like most of suggestions here.
And of course i have to say my 2 cent hihi
First longer duration or just less CD. Now CD is 45 sec... It's pretty much, and duration? 10-15 sec? I not sure cause it has been months since i don't use my warrior and i miss him but not going onto it.
So my suggest is to make cool down similar or same to VB, of/ and similiar duration. It will help tanks to take aggro better and more often with less CD and better duration. As for debuff , I like remove impairing effect i would like to add something like remove debuffs like community said above
I don't see how this based on armor could help and in this point i don't like that idea. It should stay like it is now.
Hmmm how about add 10% armor buff for jugg? Well well don't make it too op but it maybe will help endgame warriors in PvP, don't hide it its true that rogue break jugg so fast.
And about pve i would like to see this taunt effect will have better aoe and it will appears more often. Hmmm about this " self heal" i noticed it works sometimes in endgame and yeah its nice, idk how about twinks any tested? If yes then share if it work ;-)
I happy sts will finally do something about warriors! Thanks!

<Forgiveness>

[Maarkus]

Hi Carapace,

I just want to say THANK YOU for creating this thread, and for the attention you and the team are putting to fix the Juggernaught skill Issue , it is much appreciated and we hope it will have great results.

Also i want to thank you for the quick response in fixing the Glintstone Myth Set Axe Throw Skill Bonus, it was unexpected and was a pleasant surprise.

Sincerly,
Maarkus

[IMadara]

hmm cool...

[Desoulad]

So your basically nerfing jug for all levels. If anything it needs buffed 50% at high level and reduced 50% at low. Maybe reduced cooldown also to make it more helpful. Just my experience.

[Upperbound]

Wow now they gonna NERF tanks Nice reaction STS-style

[ueveotadeo]

First of all, ty for finally starting a real discussion about this issue!

Now to the point, those chances wont help in anything. If We are talking only about Jugger id say to do this:
-make the CD time faster;
-forget the HP buff upgrade, make it an AOE Armor reduction (at least a but higher than Rogues one, or else no point in this)
-make the taunt intervalo shorter (4s at max....id say 2s if charges)
-make an AOE that would increase ur pt dmg

If the discussion is about all skills id take into considerariam what serancha said about windmill and CS.

Also as twoxc said, this is mainly a PVE game, so lets keep the focus in it

[geeman75]

Jugg should be unbreakable and the CD time is really really high make it 30 sec at least warriors needs major skills buff i cant vs a rogue or mage these days lol cuz jugg is breaking so fast even in clash and pve my opinions are
1- jugg be unbreakable lasts for 15 sec and CD time 30sec
2- vb do more dmg in pve and applies to near by allies so warrriors can be back to be pve again , and in pvp vb is needed in clashes for mana or when warrior vs warrior vb should give +1k hp if charged and %5 higher dmg than it gives now or %2.5
3- skyward smash this skill is being useless atm u cant use it in pvp cuz ull die fast without feeble
4- windmill is a pve skill it should do more dmg and less CD time
5- chest spilter is a good skill but it misses targets alot so it should be like skyward never misses a target
6- rallying cry was a usefull skill before cuz of the speed the gives in clash but not anymore cuz of nekro basicly its a dead skill Let rallying cry give u an armor buff that applies to ur allies + higher speed than nekro for both pvp/pve

I agree 100% jug should be unbreakable, and cool down is ridiculously long...

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[ueveotadeo]

It is a PVE game but warriors should have a chance in PVP too right? Now they get their jugg broken even faster than before because of new mythic gun/bow

I agree with u, dont get me wrong.

I just said that about PVE because i think it will be rly hard to balance both things for warrior, at least at the begining.
That being the case i think first tackle PVE issues, which is the main cause We are having this conversation

[Youngwezzy209]

Please just lower the cd..cd is killing me more than jugg being broken in a clash

[Dalmony]

What causes a warrior to be left out of PVE runs is a complex issue to solve but the level of health I would have thought would be one of the last things to be tweaked. Essentially at the moment, there is no class who is able to "hold" aggro for other party members, nor is there any class who can buff party members in any spectacular way. In any given party, a mob will constantly target the player doing him the most damage. This could either be focused on the highest damage dealer in the party, or just swing between all 4 party members if they are all spreading even damage across all mobs. The tank is rarely if ever able to do this job for his party.

Since the tank basically brings nothing particular or uniquely "tanky" to a run.... warriors have essentially been relegated to "a really rubbish dps class," we could think of them, in pve runs, as the equivalent of a badly specced rogue. Giving them more health (even if the values are tweaked) isn't really going to fix this.

In my mind, warriors need a three step program, requiring community feedback after each step:

1. What they need first and foremost is to be given back their ability to taunt the mobs, and hold the aggro for enough time for it to actually make a difference.

This means either totally rethinking the way aggro works in the game, or fixing taunt skills so that they hold the aggro of all mobs taunted for a fixed amount of time (for example... taunt holds aggro of mobs hit by the skill for 10 seconds with a x% chance every second for each mob to lose it's "taunted" status. This could be a static number, or it could be something like a 100% hold for the first 3 seconds, and then have the chance to lose "taunted" status increase every second for the remaining seconds.) Obviously the time frames here would need to be worked out by someone more capable than myself.)

2. Of course, once the taunt issues are fixed the next logical step would be to look at whether warriors currently have enough health to be able to survive holding such large amounts of aggro. At this point, warrior health values and the health granted by skills/upgrades would be tweaked to mould the warrior to be able to withstand (with correct skill management) the respectable amount of dmg they are now theoretically absorbing for their parties.

3. Once warriors can once again taunt mobs and hold the aggro, and can do it without being one hit and dying (not having adequate hp to balance the taunt would negate the whole purpose of taunting), one could look at whether this alone has been enough to get them back on the PVE scene. If it isn't (and likelihood is that it won't) one could look at giving them some party boosters on their upgrades.

This would mean considering options things like the one mentioned here where jugg would cleanse armor debuffs, or something like an X% crit boost for 2-3 seconds in pve only, or a X% increase of primary stat for a 2-3 seconds.

Thanks for posting this.... it means a lot to the community to know this is being looked at

[hallowring]

[QUOTE=Thundyrz;2319323]Juggernaut's lengthy cooldown means it is essentially a single-use skill in any given pvp battle. It's great to see the health boost portion skill finally be made scalable. My concern with attaching the scale to the armor value (other than the ridiculous permanent aimed shot debuff mentioned by Madnex) is that it would end up being confusing. Players
would be stuck having to
make a complex
calculation to determine
the actual benefit to them
personally. It may be less interesting, but I support the level scalar where the health benefit is based on level. Straightforward is better when you're spec-ing in game, both for new players and veterans.

Another thought is that it seems disruptive, unfair and upsetting to take away almost all of the expected benefit that shark (lower level pvp) warriors have had for years. If this change had been made during the level 26 cap you'd hear justified accusations that STS was nerfing warriors. Imagine the outcry retroactively... yikes! I thin

+1 l

[Majin Vineet]

Hello everyone!

I have put together an idea on how to modify the Juggernaut ability for the future of AL based on the communities desire to see changes. Given the nature of this change, we feel it wise to discuss it openly beforehand and see if the community likes the idea as much as we do.

Please leave constructive feedback in the thread below!

The Concerns

From my perspective and understanding, the Juggernaut ability has.....300 HP or 500 HP boost.......


The planned adjustment is to grant the warrior a maximum HP boost that scales based on your armor value.........


Attachment 143232

The final level 46 entry here denotes more "end game" gear. Mythic and arcane gear compared to store bought legendary gear at 46.

[...,..
So, thoughts?

You r trying to help high lvl warriors by reducing skills power??
c'mon how many of warriors have 3000k+ armor??
most of warriors have 2.5k armor(including pets etc) which means boost will be 250 Hp which is surely lesser then present condition.

pls rethink...
its gonna b completely useless for 98-99% warriors.... yes if u r concerned for remaining 1-2% warriors who has all kinfd f arcane mythic stuffs with nekro etc then this idea rocks !

thanks...

[Mucsi]

Here is the problem, nekro removes 40% incoming damage overall, I think a pet shouldn't be better than an important skill. Here is my advice for this juggernaut issue:

Lv1-15: 500hp, 5% armor boost, and 30% remove incoming damage
Lv16-25: 550hp, 7% armor boost, 30% remove incoming damage
Lv26-35: 600hp, 8% armor boost, 30% remove incoming damage
Lv36-40: 750hp, 12% armor boost, 35% remove incoming damage
Lv41-46: 850hp, 16,5% armor boost, 45% remove incoming damage

It's my solution for this: scale skills.. Jugger makes op twinks, but at endgame it's just useless.. Warriors have 8500-9000hp.. Doesn't matter if there is an extra 500 or not..

Any thoughts?

[Skvll]

I was thinking on what if Jugg hp bonus demand on the armor value...
Example: 2500 armor gives the exact 2500hp as well.
Normal skill tap gives 50% and charged gives 100% hp bonus...

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This idea seems more simpler to do but that maybe too op, maybe half that would work better for example 2500 armor gives 1250 hp ...etc I really like your idea