Buffs in SL.

[Ellyidol]

Based from my observations in comparisons between PL and other games in terms of buffs, it seemed pretty clear that,

In PL, the buffs the character can use (Iron Blood/Evade/Rage for bears, Shield/BoM/BoV for mages, Focus/Evade for birds) actually make or break a character, especially in pvp.

Stemming from that, I was thinking that the self-cast buffs that each class has, buffs that only a class can get and are not from someone else (like Revive buff, small BoM/BoV buff), should not be a deciding factor between a win or a lose. Unfortunately, in PL, that is the case I've noticed. Whoever has buffs on will win a fight or mass pvp fight even if the opponent doesn't really do much.

IMO, the biggest buffs characters should be able to obtain are from the support class/type of characters, in our mmorpg terms, the healer/Mage. Although classes should have individual buffs, I don't think they should be that extreme, and should only act as a bonus. Furthermore, the strength of self-buffs shouldn't be what makes a character a tank, a DPS, or anything for the fact - that's what character builds are for.

This would do two things, IMO.

Make the healer/mage class all the more sought after. If the best buffs came from them, who wouldn't want them in a group?

It'd balance out pvp by removing that almost inevitable alternate killing due to the also alternating buffs that each character has.

Although I agree that buff rotation and buff timing are extremely important in defining player skill, at the moment I feel that buffs do more than what the actual player can do. Well, in PL at least.

What do you think should happen in SL?

[Zbooo]

I agree with this, as a future Engineer in SL I think that it should be as most support as possible( Buffs, Healing, Debuffs) and Dps should be not that great but not that bad..... It balances PvP itself and gives each Classes their respective job.
Commando/Tank
Operative/ Dps
Engineer/ Support

[Ellyidol]

Love how 53 people viewed and only 1 bothered to discuss

[Zbooo]

honestly what people only care about is "Wh3n D0z Bl@st^r C0m3z 0vt?" Lol hahaha

[Otukura]

Make the healer/mage class all the more sought after. If the best buffs came from them, who wouldn't want them in a group?

I thought that was the most sought out end game.

But yes, I hate how even the worst player can take out someone without buffs, if they have buffs. It's what really made me start to like one v ones.

[Ellyidol]

I thought that was the most sought out end game.

But yes, I hate how even the worst player can take out someone without buffs, if they have buffs. It's what really made me start to like one v ones.

I don't think much has changed for wanting a mage end-game. Maybe due to the amount of AoE they can do, but I personally wouldn't want or need a mage just because of the AoE they can do or buffs they can give. A few HS/armour/damage? is neglectable IMO.

And yes, that's exactly what I meant. Buffs > Almost anything else in a fight, regardless of skill or know-how.

[Zbooo]

With that being said I think Engineer will be the least PvP like class out the the three, since its going to be focused into more support based gameplay rather than all out Nuke like Mages but we'll are how everything develops

[Ellyidol]

With that being said I think Engineer will be the least PvP like class out the the three, since its going to be focused into more support based gameplay rather than all out Nuke like Mages but we'll are how everything develops

Quite the opposite actually.

If the Engineer (or mage/support type class) is done extremely well, I will personally want one in my group all the time for PvP.

[Zbooo]

Quite the opposite actually.

If the Engineer (or mage/support type class) is done extremely well, I will personally want one in my group all the time for PvP.

Well then let it be that way, well see how everything is by release

[Ellyidol]

Well then let it be that way, well see how everything is by release

Agreed. But that's one of the reasons why I wanted to start this thread. To, hopefully, gather opinions about how buffs should work in SL. Who knows, maybe something along the lines we discuss would help the devs

[Zbooo]

Agreed. But that's one of the reasons why I wanted to start this thread. To, hopefully, gather opinions about how buffs should work in SL. Who knows, maybe something along the lines we discuss would help the devs

Yup.

[WhoIsThis]

This begs the question - how should buffs be done?

Take for example the mage buff - Blessings of Might +60 crit, +30 damage. Not having this in PvE is a huge loss in damage. Not having this in PvP is suicide.

[Zbooo]

This begs the question - how should buffs be done?

Take for example the mage buff - Blessings of Might +60 crit, +30 damage. Not having this in PvE is a huge loss in damage. Not having this in PvP is suicide.

If any of the classes doesn't get a buff like that then its bye bye PvP chances, honestly.

[Ellyidol]

This begs the question - how should buffs be done?

Take for example the mage buff - Blessings of Might +60 crit, +30 damage. Not having this in PvE is a huge loss in damage. Not having this in PvP is suicide.

That's the thing, I think even from the start of PL, players have had the understanding that buffs pretty much make or break a character.

IMO, buffs should be good, but not good enough that it becomes the only thing that makes a character do what it's supposed to do. Buffs also shouldn't decide that the character who has them on wins vs characters that don't.

If buffs are meant to be that good, they should come from the support/healer class and not as a self-buff from each character. It makes the healer/support class that much more important, and it'd pretty much equalize all the classes across the board.

IMO, balancing would also be easier without having to split situations into 1. Self-buffed character and 2. Non-buffed character. Devs would be able to balance out each class individually while treating the buffs from the healer/support as a separate entity too.

These are just my opinions, of course. It just saddens me when I see a very good pvp-er have to run or simply lose against an average player due to the differences of having/not having buffs.

[WhoIsThis]

Often, there's no choice but to run. There are a lot of flame threads about how people "run" in the PvP forums. In many cases, it's because people need to recharge. I was in Forest Fight today, watching a pair of strength bears fight. One bear killed the other. Normally, it is considered proper to give the winner time to recharge. This bear respawned, ran towards his opponent, with rage, evade, and iron blood buffed. Easy kill. (The bear was later booted as a rusher, but the point is clear.) I've been killed a few times like that too - my opponent rushes me. Well, as I said, not having a +60 crit buff; I have found that mages often die due to not having their buffs.

I'm not a big fan of free for alls in Forest Fight for that reason. In large maps like Alien Underground, there is room to retreat ... unless of course your enemy has the speed orb. But then there's strategy involved.

Edit:

Ellyidol, how do you think the engineer should be? Mages in PL already do have the best offensive buff - Blessings of Might +60 crit, +30 damage and they are the support class. Bears have rage (+30 crit, +60 dmg) and birds have focus (+30crit, +30 hit). Ironically strength bears and birds would be more effective with each other's buffs. Pure strength bears have hit issues, and birds don't really need the extra hit but could really make a difference with that extra damage. I suspect that they were deliberately reversed for balance purposes - birds with +60 damage would be OP, especially in PvP.

[Ellyidol]

Edit:

Ellyidol, how do you think the engineer should be? Mages in PL already do have the best offensive buff - Blessings of Might +60 crit, +30 damage and they are the support class. Bears have rage (+30 crit, +60 dmg) and birds have focus (+30crit, +30 hit). Ironically strength bears and birds would be more effective with each other's buffs. Pure strength bears have hit issues, and birds don't really need the extra hit but could really make a difference with that extra damage. I suspect that they were deliberately reversed for balance purposes - birds with +60 damage would be OP, especially in PvP.

Never noticed that too, about the bear's and bird's buffs doing better for the other. Good point

Engineer is the mage right? Hmm..

Right now, if you look at the mage, they are almost only pure magical/offensive rather than the support class - minus the AoE heal, the small group buff they can give with their individual buffs, and of course, revive.

What I really think all classes should have is a split path option, where you can choose between build A or build B, both being opposites of each other. In mage terms, build A being a purely offensive character, or a real mage, or build B being a purely supportive character, or a healer.

The real mage can have the BoM buff - offensive, while the healer build can have the BoV buff - defensive, and a few extra single target buffs that would do well for the different classes (or one big buff altogether that would improve all classes). For extra diversity, you could even go half/half on either path, giving you a hybrid option.

IMO, there isn't a real support class in-game yet. In my experience, the mage's revives are the most supportive thing it can give. The AoE heals are debatable.

I really have a lot of expectations and opinions regarding the upcoming gameplay of SL, ranging from characters, to gear, to overall gameplay. I lack the ability to successfully lay them out in an organized manner though Hopefully they can be picked out from my wall of texts and opinions.

[ratava]

Ellyidol, great thread...

In PL I like the Mage the most because they have variety of skills so lots of interesting gameplay and cool-looking skills. They seem good at solo and groups which is cool. However this balance is sorta trying to square the circle ie

Support/Healer -> needed for groups but flexible skill options to solo!
Tank -> high enough survival to tank but enough damage to be fun?

etc.

If we look at your observation in the OP: Buffs should buff only, not be more powerful than the actual gameplay or other skills I think that's a really good point.

Problem is above^: Each class needs x/12 skills to be Specialist and the other y/12 to be general enough to create different playstyles I think could be said?? So the UI is limiting what each class can do and maybe the combat mechanics that go with that... so instead if SL has:

Weapons: Each has 3-6 skills within each weapon and classes can carry either 3-5 weapons at a time, that opens up the UI to MORE SKILLS to balance specialist builds that support or tank with generalist skills ie pick the right combination of weapons which gets around the problem of having 12 skills on the UI atsm. Because a GCD could be used for using a weapon before swapping (This could apply to weapons or gear)?

Ie a super hierarchy of skills. Different Weapons (z) > Weapon (z-y1) > Skills (z-y1-xi) where z = Engineer weapons, y = powerglove, xi = 1 out of 3/4 skills on this weapon eg

As to maintain class differences especialy buffs, an Engineer could have a Powerglove that has more buffs skills slotted on it eg? That way switches to buff weapon, but obviously CC and DPS is really limited during the GCD until they switch again or need to --> timing using it. Hopefully other classes could have this too. Eg Commando can have more weapon options than the other classes maybe??

Buffs could also be LOW power but there could be buff-combos to boost their effect perhaps is another solution maybe?

[Ellyidol]

Wow, I really think that has huge potential in allowing more depth and variety in builds.

Let me see if I got this right, buffs would come from gear. Different weapons and different armour pieces would contain different buffs, which when equipped, the character can use and have the buff on.

That sounds extremely good to me, I haven't come across a game like that yet.

There could be rare to very rare weapons/armour that give extremely good buffs if put on. Different variety of gear could be put on to have a different set of buffs on, which would differentiate each character from the other.

So gear would be extremely important in the game, what does this do to stats/skills?

[ratava]

Yeah, it's very flexible however the devs implement, but perhaps more complicated? (lol!)

Eg Weapons that have skills on them which pop up on the UI when used and can be tapped etc. +/- a different number of buff skills per weapon slotted by player?!

So it limits what you can do in any given combat, ie how much buffing you want per weapon/item selected but still allow a lot of builds and variety of where you want to emphasise when you buff ie your current weapon that might be needed for better CC - do you have buffs there or another weapon?!
At least it looks at the UI and solves that somewhat as well as INCREASING options for players maybe?

Yeah the gear/stats additions... it is becoming more complicated considering them also! But yes in PvE it could work well for special gear. For PvP I think it should be less gear dependent ie same slots for everyone - means how well you use your class to solo/team is what is important and what weapons you slot at the start of the game maybe or not?

At E3 we need someone to look at the stats screen! Then we know what we are dealing with.

[Ellyidol]

True, with how diverse it could get comes a lot of work from devs too, I think

2 1/2 more weeks til I fully finish school, hopefully by then SL decides to launch too