There is one other problem. If the buffs are too weak ... well what is the point of getting the buffs? Balancing the game mechanics could prove difficult.
Another issue - apart from buffing and healing, what other incentives are there to play the support class? Tanks are fun to play because of the skill involved. DPS classes like birds and classes with the "cool magic" skills are always attractive in any game. What about support though? They will also need to stand a chance in PvP.
They shouldn't really make all the buffs weak per se, but shouldn't let it be the deciding factor in fights.Originally Posted by WhoIsThis
IMO,
If self-buffs are that strong and that character defining (like Rage is what makes a bear do damage, BoM for mages, Focus for birds), then they should have much longer durations than their current one fight duration.
or
If self-buffs are weakened, the best buffs should come from the support/healer class.
The incentive of playing a support class would come from being wanted in a group. In most games I've played, support classes have at least one/two skills that can kill. Not an extremely powerful skill that would wreck PvE/PvP, but enough to solo with if given no choice.
The need/essence of a support class would rely on other things too however. Things like, difficulty of levels/bosses, how PvP is like, etc. If the mobs and bosses are as easy to kill as PL, then I really don't see the need for a pure support class. If PvP is as fast too, healing would be the most difficult thing to do as it would need to be split second perfect. Also, prices/use of potions would come into play. If potions were dirt cheap, healing wouldn't be needed, but if they were expensive, you'd think twice before using one at will.
Right now in PL, Ellie sells pots in bulk for cheap and you can get pots by farming for them, so they can be used at will.
If I understand what you are saying, you want a support tree for the engineer. They will have really potent buffs, can heal, and have 1-2 moderately potent spells. Then there will be a dedicated damage dealing tree for the engineer too, which will probably take it to what a pure int mage is in PL - a dedicated nuking class. Both will be easily killed and dependent on the tank (commando). Both however will be wanted because of their abilities. Buffs for the non-support classes will be much reduced compared to PL for all other builds and classes.
I think that we're going to have to wait and see what it is like before casting judgment. The game could be very difficult. Or it could be about the same level as PL. I suspect though that being originally a "PC" game, we're going to see something more hardcore than PL, but not as hardcore as say, WoW.
I'd have to argue that the pure int mage is as close to support in PL as it gets. They have AOE heal (mine does 132-269 every 3s), are pretty much the squishiest class in the game (dex mages are squishy as well), and have really potent AOE, which they need to survive long enough to use to be effective. Like all mages, they can revive and slightly buff the group. However, what is not unique is that all classes have their debuffs (ex: hell scream, shattering scream). Pallies are less support as they can tank, do less AOE damage, and their heal is weaker.
My guess? The reason why there isn't a support class in PL is because there are 5 player slots on a team. If there were say, multiple sub-classes (ex: mage support, int mage, pally, dex mage, then dps bird, tank bird, maybe support bird, then attack bear, and the pure tank, along with a variation in between), you'd have situations where people would have to boot multiple times to get what they needed. PC games can largely avoid this because parties can have larger groups.
Other thoughts:
Even in PL, there are players who will rather choose to die rather than burn up pots when they gain the aggro. It's not that they are unskilled and don't know about the game mechanics, it's just that they are unwilling to spend the cash. They don't care about K/D ratios or anything like that. This can be a huge problem for birds when they've run out of mana or bears that (should) be out in front tanking. Same with dex mages. Increasing the costs of pots could make people much more stingy about using pots and lead to even less cooperation in PUGs. It's easily one of the biggest reasons why PUGs can be so ineffective. Every since the release of the Sewers, things have been interesting. When the Sewers first came out, I think that people were expecting drop rates comparable to that of "Crush the Keeper". There have been many complaints that players aren't making money in the sewers, unless they get a lucky pink. From personal experience, I know that if I were 100% dependent on my bird (I use my pots in a similar manner to how Physiologic showed in his video "How Physiologic Plays"), the cost of pots would mean that I would have to fall back and farm AO3 to make cash, unless I got a lucky pink. Bears, particularly those who are in dex gear have shared similar experiences. With mage though, I can break even and turn a profit. Even so, there are plenty mages not willing to spend money on pots.
It's interesting to note that in the time that the Shadow Caves was released and before the Sewers were out, AO3 farming remained far more popular than farming the Shadow Caves. Making money was always very hard in the Shadow Caves and people simply didn't farm it. With the release of the Sewers, the Shadow Caves took a further decline in popularity as they were no longer "end game", although they got a brief surge while people farmed for the Vyxnaar helm.
Good arguments
Just wanted to clear up, my point wasn't to implement a support/healer class or a split path, but just to re-work buffs
Yeah, I agree that we should wait. I don't think we can really get opinions unless its a dev asking for one anyway.
I have the same sentiments to you on this one :
I suspect though that being originally a "PC" game, we're going to see something more hardcore than PL, but not as hardcore as say, WoW.
I really hope so too
V good points. Oc, mostly speculation but it's interesting thought experiments.
What is required:
1. 3 Classes => Each class must be
a) Good fun
b) Distinct playstyle
c) Be able to solo and take on a team-role according to the class in teams
d) Have Hybrid builds possible
2. 5 party limit => Each class needs to be flexible in how they play for all combinations of Tank-Healer-Mage:
1 player = 3 choices
2 player = 6
3 player = 10
4 player = 15
5 player = 21
Not all combination are going to be as effective in PvE eg numbers 1,2 players should be able to make progress (any combination of classes) and 4/5 perhaps team-roles varying effectiveness esp. with bosses. The dungeons don't scale for numbers in PL eg so classes need
(1) Solo gameplay = still fun
(2) Team roles = deeper gameplay (eg combos, buffs etc)
And what you say about pots counts a lot for being able to solo and have fun still.
Buffs seems to come into it more for the team roles... especially in PvP. A few random thoughts: I think classes need to have variety esp. if they want to solo
eg
DPS
Heal/SUPPORT (x1 self heal)
Tank/CC
But esp. in PvP be able to spec certain things eg Healer/Support aka Engineer have more advanced options for buffs etc. Does seem the UI needs have weapons that lead to a drill-down to skill-sets per weapon? That adds
a) tactics
b) customization
And eg buffs could be distributed somehow around these "weapons" so if you pull out the flamethrower you have a buff with that weapon (during GCD of all weapons) that you then depend on. Or stack lots of your buffs on 1 weapon so you are using that weapon to buff eg support more?
What about debuffs? Has anyone been around long enough to remember EverQuest, where you wouldn't think of trying anything in the planes without a shaman for their "slow" spell?
I think there's a lot of room for improvement and gameplay options in that department, and good debuffs could further enhance the support role.
Fully agreed, that's actually one thing that I haven't experienced in PL, a slow.
There are "stuns", roots, freezes, but no slows.
Im like you Ely, I prefer the tank/support role. Ill likely have an engineer alt in SL. I hope debuffs are part of the support class. Buff the party, cripple the enemy. Make for an easy clear. As for PvP, I played a druid in WoW. I was a tank in PVE and healer in PVP, and I found that changing your mindset about blasting your opponent into oblivion and into simply outlasting them made me a force to be reckoned with in PVP. My fights took forever, but with heals, debuffs, and a few damage spells I was indestructible.
So I wouldn't mind playing an engineer in PVP if the class is built right...just change the way you think and play when using a class like it.
Agreed, the best offense is a good defense.
If there is a true support/healing class in SL, I just might shift my interest from tank/bear to that one. I like to feel wanted..
Lol same....and I probably admit it more than I should.I like to feel wanted..
Debuff idea about slowing down mobs is very interesting and could be a big part of gameplay. Eg love kiting already! But add slow-down ~ dodge too..
If Commando has some interesting CC & damage to go with tanking will be interested... E3 screens needed.
Slow attack speed by 60% and/or movement by 60-80%?
I really wonder if SL will orient toward the AoE method like PL or we'll get more single target spells/skills.
The attack speed debuff should be a tank debuff just be cause it would be more stable for that class, Engineer Debuffs should very similar with the Mages debuffs but I'm not sure with the operative's debuffs maybe the movement decreasing debuff would be more suitable per se.
Zbooo- Lvl 1x Warrior
The problem with having so many combinations is that there need to be enough that are effective with just 5 slots. If you've got a situation where there's all support units (ex: lets imagine that there was in PL bear support (say, he has a really powerful hell scream, can buff his entire team with rage, evade, and iron blood, but can't really tank very well), bird support (say he can't DPS or tank, but likewise, really potent abilities like a say, a break armour that is 3x as powerful as a regular bird and a much better thorn wall), along with mage support, whose AOE is much weaker and being a support unit, is also very squishy). You host. You are a support unit and you host the game. Basically, you might as well roll a dice to see what comes to your game. Imagine if you got all support and one damage dealer, with no tank. Also, imagine that this is one of the hardest levels in the game. Options? Do you boot half your team?
In PC, it's easy. There are often 20 slots. A host starts. They wait until about 15 come in. The host often knows the first 5 people anyways. Then once about 15 come, they move out. With 20 slots, and dozens of combinations, odds are, you are going to get a good set of support, tank, and damage dealing units. With 5 slots though and dozens of combinations, things can get messy.
In fact, with just 3 classes and a few choices, I am told that one of the reasons why dual-speccing is popular is to be "wanted". This is very common already with bears and pallies.
Edit:
What I am saying is that in order to prevent this, we need classes than can do multiple roles (ex: support/damage dealer), tanks that can do a moderate amount of damage, etc. The other alternative is to have a more complex tree like a PC game, but to increase the number of slots per run (say 10) and up the difficulty, so that at least 7-8 players are needed that are highly specialized in their roles.
Specialization might have looked something like this:
- Bear tank/support/"warrior" (or damage dealing)
- Bird single target/support/perhaps an AOE one as well
- Mage AOE/support/single target
As it stands, you can have things like dex mages, but the difference isn't as dramatic. What is being proposed here is that certain equipment for example would be unique. The tankiest (highest armour and/or dodge) would go to the tank bear and ONLY the tank bear (ex: no other bear could wear it). Similarly, the gear that offers the highest skill damage in the game would go to the AOE mage and the highest damage per hit weapons to the "single target" birds exclusively. The support units would all have their own gear, which would probably come with a bunch of unique procs and the "warrior bear" would probably come with some sort of fairly potent melee weapon. This is an example, but in practice, it wouldn't deviate from this.
This has one problem - bandwidth consumption. We already know that SL will be more demanding in terms of hardware than PL (I may actually buy a new phone specifically for this game). What is going to happen with 10 people running around (and 20 in 10v10 PvP) to the bandwidth? Lagging problems are going to be much more serious, especially for people who have a slow Internet (like me).
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 06-05-2011 at 06:00 PM.
Very valid arguments Attack
I'm not exactly sure if we see eye to eye on the group limitation thing, since groups pretty much have limited space in all the MMOs I've played, those 10+ WoW things are different. So yes, the mix and match of a group will always be a problem, IMO. Especially in a game such as PL/SL where pick-up crosses hardcore, we wouldn't really know which of these games are.
As for the bandwidth, I wouldn't really know. I hate to bring up another game, but Order and Chaos has the open-world aspect of an MMO, although it's currently Wifi only, (I'm not sure how huge the difference of Wifi/3G is in terms of bandwidth), I think it shows that its fairly doable. Anyway, off-topic there.
Classes being all-around instead of being specialized is a bit contradicting to how the grouping system works though. Unless you plan on solo-ing an entire map (let's use Hideout) for things like more mob kills or testing, you'd actually be forced to group up with players. Since we're grouping up anyway, I'm not entirely convinced that soloability is that huge of an issue. Maybe booting, which is another topic altogether.
This got me to thinking of an alternate solution to generalising/specialising and keeping in mind how popular dual specs are. What if we had two paths, A and B (opposites - Healer/Offensive or Tank/Damage), and we could swap between A or B like a loadout, but only outside of combat. That way, you still get the diversity of either build, you have more depth in your character, more gear is wanted, and more diversity in overall grouping and PvP.
I would be a big fan of "spec" loadouts. Switching from a set of skills/stats for a given occasion is being done in other games I know of. With only 3 core classes I have to wonder if each will have specialized enough skill paths to make it viable in SL.
Swappable loadouts could solve this. It's a good idea.
I think what would end up happening is equal to the following in PL.
2 examples:
Strength bear
- Tank bear - very high dodge and armor; possibly procing iron blood and evade; but at a penalty to dodge. Requires strength to use.
- War bear - high weapons damage per hit, also buffs hit%; but at the expense of armour and dodge. Needs strength too.
Int mage
- High AOE power - weaker heal, but extremely powerful AOE. Poor survivability; needs int
- High support power - strong heal and buffs. AOE powers are weakened. Also poor survivability and needs int.
In both cases, being an strength bear or an int mage is viable in 2 roles. Only drawback is that everyone would need to own multiple sets. You would want to be a war bear in the presence of another bear and a support mage in the presence of other classes with high damage.
Edit:
but at a penalty to dodge
Should be:
but at a penalty to damage
Last edited by WhoIsThis; 06-07-2011 at 12:54 AM.
Very much agreed!
I wouldn't really call it a drawback, IMO. It would seem like more things to aim for when building your character. After all their experience in PL, I think STS would know by now how much a set is sought after, and hopefully making them that much rarer or longer to obtain.
How about a bird?
Single target vs AoE? Or melee vs ranged?
Just an example of the above, I'm currently leveling a dex/str bear. He's level 34 ATM and with rage, hits 60-70 and crits at about 130. Without rage, he hits 6-7. With iron blood and evade, he take a good number of hits. W/O either, he's down in two hits.
I don't find it good that we are literally completely dependent upon buffs. Once my rage loses it's affect but is still technically in use, I'm literally USELESS to the party until I can rebuff. Hitting 7 will do NOTHING to enemies with 100's of health.
I do realize I am complaining but for the life of me, cannot think of a good solution...
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As far as dual spec in PL as it is now, the only practical use I can think of would be for bears. As a STR tank bear I find myself often in groups with a higher lvl tank who does a decent job. In that case I generally throw on a two hand weapon and slide into a dps role and try to be very careful in my use of taunt and beckon so I don't disturb the tank's tempo.
It would be very nice in this case to have a preset loadout to spec into a dex build to be as effective as possible to the group.
As for SL, from what I've seen so far I think we'll see some complexity in the class builds that just aren't there in PL. Im still trying to wrap my head around the weapon uses and how they'll affect class play. Interesting though.
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