Next gen bow bears

[Mr.Wallace]

Ugh, been away a few days and already four pages here?

I don't think tanking in the traditional meaning of taking hits for the team is really needed in PL. Every class can do that, just need a quick health pot finger and a lag free connection. So when I say tanking I mean primarily crowd control. Prepare the mobs so the team can finish the job. And that's why - in my opinion - a bear should do, no matter if he wears a sword, bow or a staff.

And when I hear from bow bears that they don't want to gain aggro - who else should? When there is a str char in the team no problem. But mind, usually even the most fragile bow bear has more health and armor than the dex bird who will gain aggro instead of him.

[friedkimchi]

Try it, a bow will always be in range for an attack first before HS/Stomp

The only way Stomp/HS can be within equal distance of a max ranged attack is probably a Talon/Wing. Which in that case, if the bear is still afraid to tank, is even funnier.

Not trying to sound like a troll, but if a bears purpose was to attack from a distance and not bother with tanking/crown control at all, why even bother rolling bear? 0.0

Never knew common sense was considered trolling.

That's why I only add those bears that know how to use beckon and stomp properly.

Even if I'm running in a group that has 2 bears(me included, using dex gear), I rush in, use beckon after the first bear has done most of the crowd control or I move ahead and gather remaining enemies. Even if my armour is low, I still taunt and take aggro.

Before boss: Bears are expected to lead the pack and gather mobs in packs.
During boss: Bears are expected to keep boss pinned against the wall and sustain aggro (This is sometimes difficult due to the crazy damage of Pure Dex birds, but still bears have to do what they can)

I'm still amused when I see end game bears who use beckon anyhow.

The saying, ''A few rotten apples spoil the whole barrel'' is very true for bear users unlike archers and mages.(Hard to screw up playing archers and mages)

[Vivi]

Ellyidol, the autotarget range is always greater than the actual range. Even when u get "auto" on ur attack button on I doesnt mean ur target is being fired at. Check the stomp range vs the range the arrows fly at. Crossbows/guns have the range ure talking about.

[Ellyidol]

Ellyidol, the autotarget range is always greater than the actual range. Even when u get "auto" on ur attack button on I doesnt mean ur target is being fired at. Check the stomp range vs the range the arrows fly at. Crossbows/guns have the range ure talking about.

Yes, but assuming your moving towards the target, the moment your auto-attack completes the attack bar, you are within range of a normal attack. In other words, unless your moving away or either of you get pushed back, the auto-attack range = weapon range. Fortunately, none of the ranged weapons are THAT slow that the auto-attack range > weapon range. Definitely noticeable on a Gurgox Hammer though.

From what I've tested and have seen, only the Talon is the exact fit for HS/Stomp to be used exactly when you start attacking. Bows and Beckon fit hand in hand, and Crossbows/guns have a slight range advantage over Beckon.

Just speaking from experience, always open to be corrected

[Mr.Wallace]

Yes, but assuming your moving towards the target, the moment your auto-attack completes the attack bar, you are within range of a normal attack. In other words, unless your moving away or either of you get pushed back, the auto-attack range = weapon range. Fortunately, none of the ranged weapons are THAT slow that the auto-attack range > weapon range. Definitely noticeable on a Gurgox Hammer though.

From what I've tested and have seen, only the Talon is the exact fit for HS/Stomp to be used exactly when you start attacking. Bows and Beckon fit hand in hand, and Crossbows/guns have a slight range advantage over Beckon.

Just speaking from experience, always open to be corrected

I once tested weapon ranges (You need a friend and a private PVP Map for that ), I forgot to write down, but as far as I remember:

EDIT: Tried again, seems like:

Talon: >8m (more than Stomp, HS)
Recurve / Bow: 12m (like Taunt, Beckon)
Xbow, Gun: 14m

[Ellyidol]

I once tested weapon ranges (You need a friend and a private PVP Map for that ), I forgot to write down, but as far as I remember:

Talon: 8m (like Stomp, HS)
Recurve / Bow: 10m
Xbow, Gun: 12m (like Taunt, Beckon)

Ah, must be the further auto-attack range that Vivi mentioned that made me think Bow/Beckon fit and Xbow/Gun had longer range. Sounds like the auto-attack range has about 2m more.

[Sky../]

Beckon 12m range, taunt 12m range, stomp 8m range, hellscream 8m range. That's longer or same range as a bow ellyidol, that's more than enough for the tight corridors of BS.

He's talking about those dexbears that are 1. Don't want or are afraid to tank 2. Just stay behind the group for fear of gaining aggro.

Take note: he's not saying that all dexbears are like that.

Now taling that into consideration, if a bear is either 1 or 2, or both, do you really think they will spam taunt? Remember these are the bears that stay away from aggro. Same with beckon. If a bears runs at the backside of a group, you really expect him to beckon?

With that, there's 2 skills left. Hellscream and stomp. Hellscream is beneficial as long as it hits. I guess my only comment on that is, hope those bears can accurately guess the 8m range so they don't cast outside of range. (again,remember they hang behond the group). For stomp, same thing. From behind the group, mobs will be barely in range of stomp. And even if they are, i seriously doubt these bears would use stomp to push these mobs in the right direction. Most likely they will just spam it and send enemies all over the place.

[Mr.Wallace]

Ah, must be the further auto-attack range that Vivi mentioned that made me think Bow/Beckon fit and Xbow/Gun had longer range. Sounds like the auto-attack range has about 2m more.

I know why I don't trust my memory - just tested, Autobow has more range than taunt. You can shoot ppl you can't taunt yet...
So forget what I said!

[CrimsonTider]

This discussion is making me want to take an in-game survey asking bears if they:

1. Use taunt or not? Why or why not?
2. Feel as if they should tank as a dex/dual-spec bear?
3. Understand the purpose/benefit of beckon?

Can test this on my 56 and low level bear to compare/contrast the data to better understand what we are dealing with as an overall population. I will probably also ask game experience (time playing) and if the individual has alt characters or not.

Suggestions??

[Vivi]

I was going to do the range test today with my buddy after work but I see u guys saved me the hustle. Also I have to agree that 8m or 12m range won't be enough for the bowbears afraid to get their paws dirty xD But well, it all comes down to ur personality - u're either active or passive. Same story with birds who don't want to spam skills on bosses cuz they're afraid of the boss aggro'ing on em or Mages who don't don't use blessings for their massive, yet short self buff effects. In the end bad player is just a bad player xD no matter the class.

So what I recommend is: Get pro-active, go out there and set an example. If u're desperate to educate the masses prepare some short macro text messages or take the guy on a side and explain him the basics. For lots of these guys bear is first character and didn't get a chance to see how they should really play their character.

Ok my rant is over for now xD

[CrimsonTider]

Parth has began an excellent thread on crowd control in the sewers. His bear is using dex gear so hopefully those reading this thread will turn their attention to his for visual examples.

[WhoIsThis]

If you think about it, if a bowbear doesn't crowd control, seriously, what skills does he use? 0.0

If he's a bow bear, meaning ranged attacks, the ONLY skill you can use is Beckon that has the furthest range. HS / Taunt don't have that much of range.

So what, he pops Rage and just normal attacks? 0.0 LOL!

As strange as this may sound, I have seen bears tell me that their job is to spam vengeful and super mega smash, along firing with their main weapon. Don't expect these types of bears to taunt, beckon, or stomp. They will not run with the group and and often hang to the rear, forcing the rest of the team to hold the aggro. On the plus side, you will see hell screams though and crushing blow against bosses. However, they will not attempt to hold the aggro of a boss. To be entirely honest, I don't really mind having these types of bears when I host. They are quite common nowadays. At the very least, they have rage and all of their slashes maxed out, so they can do a reasonable amount of damage.

Far more annoying are the bears that don't know how to use stomp. The first category are "stomp bears". They run with the party (sometimes in front, although more often with the rest of the party) and spam stomp as fast as it recharges. This scatters mobs all over the place. Why this is a problem needs no explanation. The second category are the "smash bears", which beckon then stomp (and they never do this into a wall). They usually run with the party, beckon, then stomp, sending them all over the place. Better I suppose than stomp bears. With smash bears, if you can time your attacks (lightning, hot flash, cruel blast, and thorn root) with the beckon and hit them while the mobs are together, you can do a lot of damage.

Neither of the 2 categories above is receptive to the idea that they should beckon towards a wall, run in the opposite direction of the beckon towards the middle, and stomp the targets into the wall. The majority are also unwilling to lead the group, so whenever I play, I usually just find myself leading. I think most players when not playing as bear reading this should anticipate that they will be leading. For archers, use the videos in "How Physiologic Plays" for more information on how to do this. Although you won't be able to deal as much damage with the GCD, the idea is the same. Mages should basically run in front, get into the middle of a mob, debuff, then nuke.