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Thread: Thought I had on str vs dex

  1. #21
    Member Mr.Wallace's Avatar
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    From all the builds I have tried, I had the maximum skill damage with a dual build while wearing a recurve.
    At the moment:

    133 Str, 151 Dex
    Custom Recurve set
    132 Hit
    49 Crit
    Stomp max 270
    SMS max 296

    Royal/Rooter/Bellow
    95 Hit
    27 Crit
    Stomp max 249
    SMS max 277

    For some bad numbers: Fury 1H Sword set
    89 Hit
    11 Crit
    Stomp max 231
    SMS max 260

    So my conclusion after many, many - believe me, many - respecs: As a bear, the allocation of stat points to dex doesn't effect your skill damage as much much as your skill points (duh!) and the gear you wear.

    So if you are aiming for maximum skill damage, chose the gear providing the highest skill damage (RR or Custom Recurve at the moment as far as I know) - and that leads to the stat point allocation you need to wear that gear.

    But in my opinion the making a build just maximum skill damage is just as wrong as making a build just for maximum DPS. I think the best build is the one you play best with. I heard of OK-ish bears wearing Custom Talon and Wing - and that is really low DPS and terrible skill damage.

  2. #22
    Forum Adept Tamino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Wallace View Post
    I heard of OK-ish bears wearing Custom Talon and Wing - and that is really low DPS and terrible skill damage.
    I never played with your bear (maybe your mage?), but according to Ellydol you are one of these

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellyidol View Post
    I have always preferred a bow in mob clearing, while Wallace prefers a talon/wing. There is no right answer, just preference.

  3. #23
    Member friedkimchi's Avatar
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    Thanks for the comparisons.

    It's impressive that Tamio's second setup yields good skill damage+critical given the equips are 'cheap'.
    I actually don't like kimchi.

  4. #24
    Senior Member WhoIsThis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Wallace View Post
    But in my opinion the making a build just maximum skill damage is just as wrong as making a build just for maximum DPS.
    For tanks, I'd agree.

    But for damage dealing builds, I'd have to disagree. Pure int mage and pure dex bird are among the most popular builds in the game for a reason. Mage especially, because so much of a mage's damage comes from their skills and not their main weapons. As pure int, you're sacrificing survivability (dodge, hp, health regen), hit %, crit %, and main weapons damage for higher skill base damage (pally and dex mage are both viable builds). For bird, apart from warbird which is good for pvp, for pve, there's no real reason not to go pure dex (also an effective build for pvp). If I had to choose between maximizing skill and weapons damage though for bird, I'd choose maximizing skill damage. Fortunately, dex does both.

    Out of curiosity, who is your mage?

  5. #25
    Member Mr.Wallace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoIsThis View Post
    For tanks, I'd agree.

    But for damage dealing builds, I'd have to disagree. Pure int mage and pure dex bird are among the most popular builds in the game for a reason. Mage especially, because so much of a mage's damage comes from their skills and not their main weapons. As pure int, you're sacrificing survivability (dodge, hp, health regen), hit %, crit %, and main weapons damage for higher skill base damage (pally and dex mage are both viable builds). For bird, apart from warbird which is good for pvp, for pve, there's no real reason not to go pure dex (also an effective build for pvp). If I had to choose between maximizing skill and weapons damage though for bird, I'd choose maximizing skill damage. Fortunately, dex does both.

    Out of curiosity, who is your mage?
    I was only talking about bears. With mages and birds I think it's not much of a question - pures are the most valuable for the party.

    My mage is Mrswallace, leveled to 56 as full int. Since I only do fun runs now, mostly in low levels, I respecced to dual dex to see every hit number in orange
    But when things are getting serious again, full int it is...

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    Forum Adept Tamino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by friedkimchi View Post
    It's impressive that Tamio's second setup yields good skill damage+critical given the equips are 'cheap'.
    It is a common problem of all top level Sewer sets - they always miss one or more relevant stat. Level 50 premium sets (or the Shadow ones) are somehow balanced, and if they lack something it is compensated by set bonus. Take Rift example: Rift items give Hit, Crit, H/s, M/s Dmg and Armor, but no Dodge; Rift Scimitar/Shield set adds 5% Dodge.

    Premium BS pink sets are always unbalanced in their stats, even the crafted ones. So MM/Enchanted lack Hit, Crit and Dodge, FF/Fortified Hit and Crit (Fortified add damage but loose dodge), RR/Customized lack Dodge and M/s.

    DEX sets are best, because its deficiencies can be supplied by a lot of health/mana pots, but no pot can add dmg, hit and crit to FF or Customized. The only way to manage these limits is to mix different gears trying to balance stats and to fit your playstyle. Looking at Ellydol Lev 55 gears guide, you can see he follows the same principle: high end DEX gears are the RR/Customized sets, high end STR gears are a mix of Pink, Green and Yellows.

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    Senior Member NECROREAPER's Avatar
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    Wow this thread has gotten a lot more technical than I thought it would

    -------AEO-------

  8. #28
    Luminary Poster Ellyidol's Avatar
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    Hey guys! Been following the thread, only now do I have time to reply in mobile mode though. Will try my best to follow the trend of the thread, dex and Hit then skill damage.

    IMO, there are 2 reasons why a bear gets dex. One is to dual spec, if youre interested, and for Hit %. I disregard skill damage because the difference of each point in str/dex is minimal in skill damage. Like Wallace said, majority of the skill damage comes from gear.

    Dex for Hit %. This is the main reason why you would get dex. If your Hit % is enough to suit you, by all means go pure str. A good Hit % > any amount of damage anyway.

    I also remember that Phys had a guide about Hit % being capped at 85 (ish), I think it's 85 for normal attacks, but not skills. I could swear that my Beckon hits more with 90+ Hit % versus 80+.

    Skill damage. Reason why some cheaper gear is more effective is because, not sure if it's known, just putting it out there, the damage gain from gear attributes directly to skill damage.

    A Bellow piece (green, str) gives 12 damage. That 12 damage is added to your base damage and directly to skill damage. Stomp before would be 90-100, stomp after would be 102-112.

  9. #29
    Guardian of Alterra JaytB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellyidol View Post
    I also remember that Phys had a guide about Hit % being capped at 85 (ish), I think it's 85 for normal attacks, but not skills. I could swear that my Beckon hits more with 90+ Hit % versus 80+.
    Somebody tested this not long ago. The conclusion was indeed that the 85% cap was only for auto-attack. Skills hit% didn't seem to be capped at all.


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  10. #30
    Senior Member WhoIsThis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamino View Post
    It is a common problem of all top level Sewer sets - they always miss one or more relevant stat. Level 50 premium sets (or the Shadow ones) are somehow balanced, and if they lack something it is compensated by set bonus. Take Rift example: Rift items give Hit, Crit, H/s, M/s Dmg and Armor, but no Dodge; Rift Scimitar/Shield set adds 5% Dodge.

    Premium BS pink sets are always unbalanced in their stats, even the crafted ones. So MM/Enchanted lack Hit, Crit and Dodge, FF/Fortified Hit and Crit (Fortified add damage but loose dodge), RR/Customized lack Dodge and M/s.

    DEX sets are best, because its deficiencies can be supplied by a lot of health/mana pots, but no pot can add dmg, hit and crit to FF or Customized. The only way to manage these limits is to mix different gears trying to balance stats and to fit your playstyle. Looking at Ellydol Lev 55 gears guide, you can see he follows the same principle: high end DEX gears are the RR/Customized sets, high end STR gears are a mix of Pink, Green and Yellows.
    The problem is that the shadow sets are not truly outstanding in any way either. It's like do you want everything distributed across a lot of stats, or some really potent stats. That said, I wish there were level 55 versions of the shadow sets that were a bit more potent.

    Compare:
    Mega Mage Gemstone Wand Set:
    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-z...t%25252056.png

    Shadow Glow Stick Set:
    https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J...t%25252056.png

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoIsThis View Post
    The problem is that the shadow sets are not truly outstanding in any way either. It's like do you want everything distributed across a lot of stats, or some really potent stats. That said, I wish there were level 55 versions of the shadow sets that were a bit more potent.

    Compare:
    Mega Mage Gemstone Wand Set:
    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-z...t%25252056.png

    Shadow Glow Stick Set:
    https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J...t%25252056.png
    +1 on the sets

    When I saw the fortitude set, I was like, "this is the end game gear everyone is trying to achieve?" Sure, it's great on armor, dmg, and h/s, but is awful at everything else.

    It would be nice to be able to make different sets, like the fortitude set for pure tanking, a set for an all around balance, a set for pure damage, etc. I think they sort of have this now in the sewers with the different colors (orage and green), but it'd be nice if they were all pink quality. Would make for a good market also

    Actually, just like the lvl 45 gear with isis, thoth, horus, and osaris. Then, the 50 gear for the mix of everything (probably the most sought after).

  12. #32
    Senior Member WhoIsThis's Avatar
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    The green glowing sets are not the end all be all.

    For example Enchanted:
    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-F...d%25252056.png

    Benefits? Highest skill damage of any set in PL. It also has health regen and for a staff set, arguably the best survivability (debatable compared to scrapers though with 21% dodge). Biggest flaw? Very low mana regen (by mage standards anyways). Not a big deal in PvE where pots are available. In PvP; use Mega Mage except maybe against birds.

    Fortified? Biggest flaw? Basically no dodge.

    Custom is arguably the best of the green sets; no real flaws. Bird sets have never offered really high mana regen (sewer king) or protection (drainers). It has slightly less skill damage than RR, but slightly better crit which makes up for it. But sewer king and drainers both have their respective weaknesses and overall, custom is best set for a bird in both PvE and PvP for like 90%+ of situations. The same cannot be said for enchanted or fortified.
    Last edited by WhoIsThis; 07-06-2011 at 08:04 AM.

  13. #33
    Forum Adept Tamino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoIsThis View Post
    The problem is that the shadow sets are not truly outstanding in any way either. It's like do you want everything distributed across a lot of stats, or some really potent stats. That said, I wish there were level 55 versions of the shadow sets that were a bit more potent.
    I agree with you. IMHO the sewer pink gears stats leave space for new weapons, what I expect is that one of the two upcoming areas is a 55-60 elite map, which drops better gears for 55 players (like AO3/SC for lev 50).

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