Originally Posted by
Lawpvp
The point of this thread is not to complain, not to start a flame war, but to address the clear deficiencies sts has with regards to balance between the 3 classes. Im 17 and could do a better job designing balance changes than anything they have put in place and im sure a significant portion of the arlor community could do the same. Yes i know many threads have been made regarding this issue but ive ranted to in game friends enough about it that I figured i would put my 2 cents in.(sorry in advance for the great length and saying tanks instead of warriors over and over)
Ive been playing at lvl 17 pvp for over 2 years, primarily rogue but ive played the other 2 classes aswell. In addition i did some 46 pvp with a tank but ill be addressing that later. Since i started playing as a twink warriors were by and far the strongest class in twink pvp and that remains true today. What truly brought rogues and mages more in line with warriors was the buff to nekro. For the past few months before the rogue armor nerf lvl 17 had never been more balanced. All classes could beat all classes in vs, atleast 1 mage and rogue were always wanted for a clash, and all classes had the potential to be significant in all aspects of pvp, atleast for my lvl.
Before I state where I believe sts has made their mistakes i'd like to establish some criteria for what could be considered "balance" in pvp. From a clash perspective, I believe that all classes should be desireable without 2 classes overshadowing the third. That being said, i do recognize that tanks will always be more desireable with atleast 2-3 tanks being preferable only 1-2 of each of the other classes may be needed. From a vs perspective, I believe that all classes should be competitive with each other, while one class may have a slight advantage over another, they should be at a slight disadvantage to the third.
While the armor nerf in addition to other changes have devastated rogues across all lvls, twink pvp has been hurt even more so due to the blanket changes that sts applies to all levels when they only need to be applied to a select few. For example, the first change that irritated me was when juggernaut was buffed to grant 65% dmg reduction. While i will admit this change was definitely needed for endgame as tanks were dying too often through jugg, there was 0 reason to have this change apply to low lvls. In the time i played a lvl 18 tank, i used juggernaut for a shortwhile and i could survive 1v5 for 10 seconds without juggernaut breaking while the rest of my team regrouped. For a long time twinks were even considered noobs for using juggernaut because it took 0 skill in proper tanking to simply become invincible for the duration. Before the juggernaut buffs my guild and I were able to farm 5 tanks if we had the proper line up, nowadays, forget about it. 4/5 tanks are running around with juggernaut because it absurdly overpowered at twink lvls. Sometimes we cant even kill 2-3 tanks before the rest of their team rejoins because juggernaut reduces my 1k crits to a meager 400 or lower.
After some time however ive been able to get over that, as boring as it can make clashes sometimes when people just stack tanks. What threw me over the edge, and many other rogues players was the blanket nerf to rogues armor. What frustrates me most about this change is the pitiful reasoning sts has used to justify it. Bear with me as i tear it apart piece by piece.
Over time signifies that rogues didnt used to be tankier than intended. In other words, at previous caps and lower lvls rogues tankyness was fine yet sts chooses to nerf rogues across all levels anyways. And here is the real kicker "rogues will no longer be tankier than warriors" WHAT??? ARE U CRAZY??? Sts please show me a lvl 46 rogue(the cap at the time of the change) with 3000 armor, or 9000 health, or 65% dmg reduction from a single skill. This shows a clear lack of knowledge regarding the state of the game. Then the suggestiont they come up with as compensation is to put 10 points into razor shield mastery for 10% dmg reduction. Minimum of 11 points for 10% dmg reduction compared to 2 points for 65% dmg reduction, this is what u call balance sts? And whats ur proposition for twinks? Nothing because you people didnt think this through at all.
Whether this nerf was intended to bring about balance from a pvp or pve perspective, either way it was unintelligent, irrational, and unjustified. If this was from a pve perspective because rogues were the most favored class and tanks the least favored, nerfing rogues was not the fix because it still leaves tanks in just as bad a state as they were before. In fact, tanks were even speeding up elite runs and making it onto the lb for timed runs in the days preceding the rogue armor nerf. The real solution was not to nerf other classes in an attempt to force people to play tanks, but to buff tanks such that they were once again desireable. And how could that be achieved? Hmm idk, maybe fixing the taunt system that has been atrocious for years or developing maps with mobs that actually require a tank to be able to complete it. In the time i spent playing pocket legends before the days of arlor i spent a fair amount of time farming the hardest bosses at lvl 66. I can safely say that a full bird(the dex class) lineup was simply unfathomable, the thought would never have even crossed my mind. As the dex class, I almost never ran a map without atleast 1 enchantress(int) and a bear(str) along with me because a full dex lineup would have been demolished by the bosses, if not the mobs themselves.
If this nerf was from a pvp perspective, tanks were already the overpowered class in pvp at endgame and at twinks. More than 1 rogue was almost never preferred over a mage or an additional tank. 1v1 tank vs rogue could go either way at twinks and at endgame. While i cant attest to the status of mage in 1v1 at endgame, as for lvl 17, mages could beat both tanks(yes, tanks)and rogues in 1v1. After the nerf, i havent played much endgame since but from my twinking experience and what i have gathered from thoughts by endgame rogues, rogues are now by and far the weakest pvp class in the game.
The result of the nerf: despite being the single target dmg class, i can no longer beat equally geared/skilled mages/tanks in 1v1(yah i still beat well geared tanks who r clueless but that is because they miss 3/4 hits and cant heal properly). I havent even 1v1ed a well geared mage since the nerf because i know ill be obliterated. I have seen more 4-5 tank lineups with maybe 1 mage, and sometimes 3 warrior 2 mages, but rarely do i see rogues in 5v5s anymore. Countless twink rogues have quit rogue and switched classes quit the game alltogether, just check the auction house and u will see tons of para rogue items. Check the traders market, for every thread someone is buying rogue gear there are 6 threads to sell rogue gear. There is literally 0 reason to play rogue at twinks over the other 2 classes.
THE SHEER FACT THAT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE QUITTING ROGUE SHOULD SERVE AS FLASHING RED LIGHTS THAT U MESSED SOMETHING UP. STS OPEN YOUR EYES.
As for endgame, while i havent had much experience as a rogue, ive had a discussion with zeus(who needless to say is no slouch of a rogue and undoubtfully is knowledgable about the game) regarding this issue and he has expressed that he has to be afraid of tanks with arc sword and little else in the way of gear because all a tank has to do to be successful is mindlessly spam autos to get a proc, use jugg to be invincible, and pull someone into the procs for an ez kill against rogues with far superior and more valuable gear. Many other rogues have expressed similar opinions, hence the vast number of threads regarding the armor nerf.
And if sts was going to nerf rogues, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD U NERF THEIR ARMOR??? Nerf what is overpowered about the class not what is average. And what is overpowered about rogues? AIMED SHOT, the most overpowered skill in the game, still a moot point given the current state rogues. But nerfing aimed shot would atleast have been justified and not ruined rogues status in pve. Mobas like Leage of Legends, Dota 2, Smite, all have dozens of characters that have to balance and when certain characters become overpowered, they surely dont go about bringing balance by nerfing the worst skills of those characters, they directly nerf what is overpowered about those characters. Spacetime studios, u have 3 characters to choose from, and u still have worse balance than mobas with 75+.
While my issues with the armor nerf are primarily from a pvp perspective, even if the armor nerf was good for the balance of pve(which ive already said it wasnt the right way to go about it but i cant say if it has helped balance or not) it is not justified to sacrifice the balance of pvp for the sake of pve. This game would have died long ago had it not been for the pvp aspect.
Now ill address some of the responses ive seen on other threads regarding the rogue armor nerf:
For those who would say rogue had their time to be overpowered, now its time for tanks. This is ignorant and pays no attention to the balance of the game. And twink rogues have never been overpowered, tanks have always been overpowered. So how is it justified to tilt that balance even more so in favor of tanks. For those who would say this game wasnt meant to have twinks, twinks were even a part of pocket legends. Sts would not have added an option to disable if everyone was supposed to lvl to the cap. And the point of this game is entertainment, if people find more joy in pvp at lower lvls than endgame, they are entitled to pursue those opportunities. For those who would say rogues can now feel whats its like for mages, just...no. Ofc a mage is good as dead without a shield, but so is rogue, even before the armor nerf i could 2 combo any lvl 17 rogue, i even 1 comboed a rogue with 2000 health before the nerf. Not to mention that mages have 2 shields and can bye nye unstunnable when cycled well(i realize shields dont last as long at endgame but mages still have 2 while having similar armor to rogues). For those who would say im just complaining because my maxed out rogue isnt incredibly strong at twinks anymore, i am upset about it but that doesnt change that rogues are still the weakest class. I spent tons of time and gold to obtain a 3 para 7 eye 1 fort nature set which i am very proud of, my stats were perfect before the nerf. Now my rogue is worthless compared to mages or tanks despite the effort and money i have put into it. And maxed out mages and tanks could be just as dominate in twinks.
For those who say that rogues arent meant to be a little bit tanky, they are meant to do dmg like a glass cannon, then why is sts nerfing our dmg. If u truly think this is how rogues should be, then lets remove the dmg debuff and see if anyone enjoys pvp then, ill gladly 2 combo tanks with 3500 health and 900 armor at lvl 17. And if rogues arent meant to be a little but tanky while doing dmg, why do tanks have invulnerability on top of the absurd dmg they are able to do with the arcane sword(yes i know its bugged but b4 the bug and once the bug is fixed it will still do absurd dmg). Id be glad to have aimed shot scaling reduced so that rogues could have some of their tankiness given back to them
Seeing as how ive shown this change had nothing to do with balance, my theory and a theory i know others share is that this nerf was for the sake of $$$$. Dont u find it rather convenient that just as rogue armor gets nerfed, a new pet that only drops in locks which are opened with plat, bought with $$$$, is released with more armor than any other pet, 228. Isnt it interesting that sts then announces a new mythic weapon with a proc that gives 75% dmg reduction(but then makes u completely useless since u cant use any skills, cant even heal myself and the point of a rogue is to do dmg with skills like wtf). Seems like they are unjustly nerfing rogues and providing 1 subpar alternative that rogues have to pay for with $$$$ or someone else spends the money and rogues spend the gold to still end up weaker than before and have to give up the 40% dmg reduction of nekro.
And on top of rogues being trashed, having dmg reduced in pvp by over 20%, armor reduced by over 16%, sts then buffs mages guns to do absurd dmg on crits through autos as zeus has expressed on another thread and given twink mages overpowered guns from crates(did rogues even get a crate weapon? I havent seen anything) sealed rogues fate as being useless in twink pvp, mages have more survivability, curse, team heals, restore mana, can still crit hard on lightning, do tons of dmg on autos, while rogues are simply food waiting to be eaten. Not to mention that mages are now able to get a mythic ring with dmg, putting them even further ahead of rogues, PLUS GALEN MAUL, THE MOST OVERPOWERED WEAPON IN THE HISTORY OF TWINKS HAS BEEN BUGGED SINCE ITS RELEASE and procs multiple times at once and has hidden armor reduction on it. My friend 1 comboed a rogue(a real twink not a random noob) AT LEVEL 13 AS A TANK AND HE DIDNT EVEN PROC. <<<this alone shows that rogues are far too squishy now. I could even be 2 comboed by tanks before the armor nerf from 1 stun and proc from galen maul, but u wont see any twink rogues 2 combo a tank.
The last thing that really ticks me off about this is the blatant disregard and lack of response from sts despite the countless threads and comments that this needs to be looked at. If u think that being silent and allowing time to let this sink in with players, u are dead wrong. I will not be silent about this until i have an answer. Either let us know that this is being looked at and possible changes may be made, or this definitively not be looked at whatsoever so i, like many others, can give up hope in sts and quit playing rogue, if not the game alltogether.
For those who made it through this essay i appreciate your time. For those who still think im wrong, pls share what u think and if its valid i may concede that, but the more likely case is ill have to point out why your wrong. To those who agree with me, show your support and lets save rogues before all rogues have dissappeared.
And lastly to sts, give us anything u have to say regarding this issue or u will lose yet another paying customer, as u have lost many already and will lose many more down the road.
" (ye coz jugger lasts forever ...fml-.- 15 sec..then we fight 25-30 sec with 3 skills) etc. I believe for some, the real problem are tanks, and that's what they want to nerf, armor nerf it's just an excuse imo...just saying...
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