Do engineeers need a buff?

[Flowman]

Hmmm, interesting, thanks. I really wish somebody with enough plat would figure this out and post it. Besides what rank it becomes 3 m/s on it's own, I've also been wondering exactly how much the shield amount really improves per rank and if it gives more armor. Would be hard to test, as you'd need to go somewhere that can take it down before it ends and add up the damage it can take at each rank. Also I remember taking damage with it on, so might not be absorbing all damage, just some.

Nobody has any thoughts on my ideas. I see how it is.

Gives +20 armor per level. It doesn't block damage, just gives the armor buff and regens mana. I've also noticed that now that I'm lvl 3 shield instead of lvl 6, my shield goes down a lot faster when in combat, making me believe that a higher level = more damage taken before shield debuffs.

[ThisGuy0502]

Thisguy, on top of what Who said, Op has at least twice the auto attack damage output. The Eng would hardly be doing nothing while the DOTs tick. They'd be struggling to surive getting blasted to pieces. The DOT damage takes tiiiiiiiiiiiiime to work. Time that the Op would spend debuffing and seriously hurting the Eng. How do you not realize this? Either you're just disagreeing to mess with us, or you're just that clueless. Which is it?

Right, so nobody cares about my ideas to improve the class? I worked hard on that.

No i still believe that eng have a chance i guarantee you that ops worst enemys will be engineers ... and nice ideas btw, i like them alot

[Slush]

Al I have to say is: I can't wait for pvp >: D

[WhoIsThis]

No i still believe that eng have a chance i guarantee you that ops worst enemys will be engineers ... and nice ideas btw, i like them alot

Please explain why engineers you think engineers are going to be victorious in most matches against operatives.

[Raulur]

Too early to tell. I know my engie hardly ever uses stims, maybe a mana once or twice a map, depending on how many deaths there are. On the other hand, my op uses a massive amount of stims. I never had any spare money on my op, and my engineer has plenty to buy items with. I'd say it's good enough for now. You never know what those unknown skills will bring to the table.

[WhoIsThis]

Too early to tell. I know my engie hardly ever uses stims, maybe a mana once or twice a map, depending on how many deaths there are. On the other hand, my op uses a massive amount of stims. I never had any spare money on my op, and my engineer has plenty to buy items with. I'd say it's good enough for now. You never know what those unknown skills will bring to the table.

I find that my op has the most amount of cash? Odd. I've been farming with both. In the final level on Delta7, both will use a lot of stims. But otherwise, I find that my op kills things much more effectively, and seems to earn more cash.

Edit:
Moving back on topic, the engineer has neither the damage output of the operative nor the durability of the commando (and arguably less damage output due to the DOT).

I suspect that the reason why engineers have become the least popular class at the end-game is because of this. What to do?

[Cahaun]

It would be good if they all had the PL skills EXECPT they are named differently and have different flashy looking effects. The PL skills are the best balanced ones I have seen. Don't worry about commandos, SL should be getting melee weapons at launch or a major update. Good idea?

[Derajdefyre]

It's a team game. If you are finding yourself 1v1 with an operative, RUN!

I think people are wanting this game to be like diablo where you can run around and kill legions of enemies without trying. There is more strategy involved. I never solo anything. I go to the game list and join someone else. If no one else is in a game I switch characters and go solo some easy content. STS doesn't want the classes to be the same, they want them to be different but equal in group contribution. Don't give Engineers aoe skills! Operatives don't get them either! Pick a role you want to play and play it. If you don't like being an Engineer because you want to AoE, then delete your character and make a commando.

EDIT: To answer the question in the OP, no Engineers do not need a buff. We increase the groups armor and mana regen and we provide the entire group with something like 40H/s if we stay on top of it. No other class can do that, we are a VITAL part of the group.

[Raulur]

One question to those who think Engineer needs a buff: What weapon are you using? I know before I picked up a sniper rifle, I felt weak. After getting the sniper rifle, not at all. I can solo just about anything but a few bosses just fine.

[WhoIsThis]

It's a team game. If you are finding yourself 1v1 with an operative, RUN!

I hate to drive my own thread off topic when I've posted above, but as it stands, engineers stand no chance in PvP, which I recalling the devs originally saying would be more balanced than the PvP in PL. I note that ThisGuy has been conspicuously absent when asked to justify why ops would lose.

@Raulur

I use the Veteran's Beta and Beyond Sniper Rifle and the Stoneklaz. Compared to an op with minesweepers, damage output from skills is negligible. For equipment, I use full neutronics, with the exception of the helmet (iHelmet).

On paper, an engineer should have a lot of damage output. In practice, spells like transferrence, leech, whither, and pain do far less damage than one would expect. Having a more powerful rifle means that your target dies sooner. Pain for example needs a couple of seconds to get the explosion off. You are forced to switch your target as soon as you cast the spell and hope that your teammates won't kill the target (which they usually do), meaning that your "AOE" spells only damage one target. The only exception being bosses and minibosses where there are smaller targets around, in which case concentrating fire on the boss is the best solution. But against regular mobs ...

All of the bosses can pretty much be soloed if you have a lot of pots. The possible exception might be miner. Commando is probably best suited for soloing miner.

[Derajdefyre]

I hate to drive my own thread off topic when I've posted above, but as it stands, engineers stand no chance in PvP, which I recalling the devs originally saying would be more balanced than the PvP in PL. I note that ThisGuy has been conspicuously absent when asked to justify why ops would lose.

balanced doesn't necessarily mean all 1v1 combinations are evenly matched. I'd rather have an Engineer/Operative/Commando team than an Op/Op/Op team.

[Raulur]

I hate to drive my own thread off topic when I've posted above, but as it stands, engineers stand no chance in PvP, which I recalling the devs originally saying would be more balanced than the PvP in PL. I note that ThisGuy has been conspicuously absent when asked to justify why ops would lose.

@Raulur

I use the Veteran's Beta and Beyond Sniper Rifle and the Stoneklaz. Compared to an op with minesweepers, damage output from skills is negligible. For equipment, I use full neutronics, with the exception of the helmet (iHelmet).

On paper, an engineer should have a lot of damage output. In practice, spells like transferrence, leech, whither, and pain do far less damage than one would expect. Having a more powerful rifle means that your target dies sooner. Pain for example needs a couple of seconds to get the explosion off. You are forced to switch your target as soon as you cast the spell and hope that your teammates won't kill the target (which they usually do), meaning that your "AOE" spells only damage one target. The only exception being bosses and minibosses where there are smaller targets around, in which case concentrating fire on the boss is the best solution. But against regular mobs ...

All of the bosses can pretty much be soloed if you have a lot of pots. The possible exception might be miner. Commando is probably best suited for soloing miner.

I use the exact same equipment minus the Stoneklaz and substitute the plat backpack. I don't see what the problem is? I can solo anything but the assassin and miner without using but one or two stims, no enhancers. Maybe ppl are just too used to the rediculously overpowered PL mage? You can't just run in and expect to nuke everything here, and I think that is good.

In any case, it is still too early to tell. With no dual equipment builds, it will be easier for the devs to adjust balance that way.

[WhoIsThis]

balanced doesn't necessarily mean all 1v1 combinations are evenly matched. I'd rather have an Engineer/Operative/Commando team than an Op/Op/Op team.

That's pretty big stretch.

I don't know how often you PvP in PL, so I don't know how much experience you have. But you do realize that a significant proportion of PvP in PL is 1v1? PvP isn't 100% FFA.

Edit:
A good PvP experience for 1v1 is one where both sides are going to have a reasonable chance of winning. The deciding factors should be player skill, spell choices, the build used, and perhaps also equipment.

[WhoIsThis]

I use the exact same equipment minus the Stoneklaz and substitute the plat backpack. I don't see what the problem is? I can solo anything but the assassin and miner without using but one or two stims, no enhancers. Maybe ppl are just too used to the rediculously overpowered PL mage? You can't just run in and expect to nuke everything here, and I think that is good.

Engineer is arguably a superior build for soloing. But I am referring to team PvE, which is what this game emphasizes. The net damage output is minimal in a team environment. In a solo environment, the damage output is actually quite good. This is because of the nature of DOT. If your target dies, then your AOE is a one person spell that does less skill damage than a comparable operative or commando spell would. As I have repeatedly stated, when you charge in, you first have to cast spells like transferrence or pain. Then switch targets. This is a not a problem when soloing. This is serious problem in teams. One of your teammates will almost always kill off the target before your AOE goes off, except when facing bosses.

The PL mage did have its weaknesses. It did not excel at fighting bosses. Ever solo Gold Fever? The Coakroach? A pure dex bird kills perhaps as much as 2-3x faster due to break armor stacking. Furthermore, it was incredibly easy to get killed as a pure int mage. Ever try soloing the Catacombs? It's really easy to get killed when there's 5 slime creatures blasting fireballs at you. Similar arguments could be made about dex mage. Pally was different, but pally had low damage output by comparison.

I don't expect to run in and destroy everything in one volley (the game would be too easy). The problem is that the damage output of an engineer is substantially lower relative to the operative, while net survivability is inferior to that of the commando (despite the armor buff and 3 heal spells). I do not expect to the same single target damage as operative either, as this is their greatest strength. I do however expect the gap to be smaller.

@ Raulur:
Earlier, you attempted to argue that my damage output was low because of my equipment choices. I can see that this is not the case.

[Raulur]

I'm still not sure what you are complaining about when it is nothing but pure speculation on something that none of us have tried yet. I'm going to trust that the devs have tested pvp in-house and that all classes have a chance. Until we experience otherwise, this thread should diappear.

[iLikeTurtles]

im telling you guys right now. Engineers will be the dominating class in solo and grp pvp. They will be the first target of any grp, since if you know pvp well enough you always go for the healer. Problem is they dot like crazy, you dont need to hit the person every time to do damage therefore you can hit and run hit and run, stacking consistant dps on dots, all the while these dots heal your and cripple your opponent.

Its ofc too early to tell, but if a person knows how to play a engi right they should have no problem in pvp.

Now onto pve, I solo dungeons like a pro on my engi never needing 1 pot, and kill just fine.
They have great armor and if you know how to properly cast your skills you can have a very good and consistant mana regen, ( revive gives 1mp regen for 1min fyi) ontop of the shields regen you golden.

imo commando's would be the engi killer seeing as how the knock downs are abundant and ranged, Thats pretty much the way to kill an engi, you cant out heal them, you cant out dps them compared to stacked dots, you will have to pure cc them and have somoene else pound on them.

I am very excited to see how pvp plays out in this game, but i have a feeling engi will be top contender.

[ThisGuy0502]

im telling you guys right now. Engineers will be the dominating class in solo and grp pvp. They will be the first target of any grp, since if you know pvp well enough you always go for the healer. Problem is they dot like crazy, you dont need to hit the person every time to do damage therefore you can hit and run hit and run, stacking consistant dps on dots, all the while these dots heal your and cripple your opponent.

Its ofc too early to tell, but if a person knows how to play a engi right they should have no problem in pvp.

Now onto pve, I solo dungeons like a pro on my engi never needing 1 pot, and kill just fine.
They have great armor and if you know how to properly cast your skills you can have a very good and consistant mana regen, ( revive gives 1mp regen for 1min fyi) ontop of the shields regen you golden.

imo commando's would be the engi killer seeing as how the knock downs are abundant and ranged, Thats pretty much the way to kill an engi, you cant out heal them, you cant out dps them compared to stacked dots, you will have to pure cc them and have somoene else pound on them.

I am very excited to see how pvp plays out in this game, but i have a feeling engi will be top contender.

Amen!! See this guy gets me

[iLikeTurtles]

That's pretty big stretch.

I don't know how often you PvP in PL, so I don't know how much experience you have. But you do realize that a significant proportion of PvP in PL is 1v1? PvP isn't 100% FFA.

Edit:
A good PvP experience for 1v1 is one where both sides are going to have a reasonable chance of winning. The deciding factors should be player skill, spell choices, the build used, and perhaps also equipment.

stop comparing PL to SL. Apples to Oranges.

[WhoIsThis]

That's pretty big stretch.

I don't know how often you PvP in PL, so I don't know how much experience you have. But you do realize that a significant proportion of PvP in PL is 1v1? PvP isn't 100% FFA.

Edit:
A good PvP experience for 1v1 is one where both sides are going to have a reasonable chance of winning. The deciding factors should be player skill, spell choices, the build used, and perhaps also equipment.

stop comparing PL to SL. Apples to Oranges.

So are you saying that 1v1 PvP between different classes will also go away?

Remember, healing and running will be tough against operatives as well. First, they can lurch or use flame, which like commando, can stun and in the case of lurch, throw you back, leaving you briefly unable to counter. But they will also debuff you, which means that your DOT won't be as potent. Finally, skill for skill, weapon for weapon, their skills are the most potent, they do more damage.

All of this assumes that skills and game mechanics are similar to PvE. I suppose, judgement here needs to be withheld until actual PvP comes out.

[Akylies]

Leech, Empathy, and Transference all rock.