Do engineeers need a buff?

[WhoIsThis]

Does anyone else feel that engineers are the weakest class right now in the game? They don't have anything near the damage output of operatives and nor the durability of commandos.

It seems that they are pure support right now. All of the AOE spells are damage over time. Unfortunately, targets are often dead before the engineer's AOE can get any kills.

I think that engineers need at least one or two fairly powerful AOE spells to compensate.


One thing I found very interesting is that arguably the "best" class and probably the most commonly played is also the most similar to its PL counterpart - bird vs operative. A lot of the spells are similar: repulse, thorn root, break armor, blinding shot all have SL counterparts that are similar. One could argue that the level 20 op skill is kind of like blast shot. On the other hand, commando is fine the way it is. As this game is ranged, equipping commandoes with melee slashes wouldn't work.



Edit:

I have decided to necro this thread because I want to draw attention to the difficulties that engineers are experiencing these days in SL PvP.

Notice when this thread was made and how long these issues have persisted. In August, I insisted that engineers in their state would not stand a chance in SL PvP. Others disagreed and well ... time told the story.

[Conradin]

See, what you have to get over is that engineers are not a Pl mage. They are a support class. However if used right- they can kill mobs quite well. They will never be a nuking machine though. I look forward to playing engineer.

[Flowman]

Engineers have Force Shield...buffs armor and increases mana recovery.
Engineers can Heal with 3 different attacks.
Engineers have an instant-hit AOE, transference, that also heals and I believe heals everyone around as well.
Engineers can wield the non-class specific weapons, and I see a LOT of commandos wielding the plat rifles; engineers can wield these.
Engineers have the middle armor class of the 3 and hardly use any stim packs.

If anything the operative class needs tweaking. It's weak beyond comparison to the other 2

[bronislav84]

While you make a good point for glass cannon being too glassy Flow, so does Who. Engineers are survivable, yes, but lack good damage output. Yes the Op is a bit too squishy wearing cloth, but it's damage is much higher than Birds. STS obviously wanted one unique class in the game, but Engineer needs a bit more damage ability. Mobs do in fact die too quickly for the majority of the DOTs to run their full duration. This is also going to be detrimental in PVP, as Op should in theory have no trouble just killing an Eng outright before the DOTs tick down.

I believe one instant cast electric discharge AOE that does it's damage all at once with a three to four second cooldown and a Turret summon would balance the class out nicely while being completely in line with the technology theme. One instant damage AOE is not too far off the DOT theme, really. Also Transference needs to be tweaked to either be a frontal cone or a point blank radius. Right now although it is an AOE, the fact that it cuts out if the primary target dies also makes it prone to not running the full time. I detailed this in noneo's Engineer Survival Guide.

The electric AOE would cover the lack of being able to help effectively clear mobs or take care of themselves. I'm at a huge disadvantage if I get too much stuff attacking me. I am sure it's the number one cause of deaths for Engineers.

The Turret would cover the lack of worthwhile DPS by supplementing the Engineer's damage.

[WhoIsThis]

That's also a huge problem - engineers are going not going to do well in PvP vs ops.

[ThisGuy0502]

I agree, but transference is engineers top notch skill and one of the strongest skills in the beta right now... i say that engineers are equal to both op and commando

[WhoIsThis]

Engineers have Force Shield...buffs armor and increases mana recovery.
Engineers can Heal with 3 different attacks.
Engineers have an instant-hit AOE, transference, that also heals and I believe heals everyone around as well.
Engineers can wield the non-class specific weapons, and I see a LOT of commandos wielding the plat rifles; engineers can wield these.
Engineers have the middle armor class of the 3 and hardly use any stim packs.

If anything the operative class needs tweaking. It's weak beyond comparison to the other 2

1. Force shield's 1 m/s extra isn't worth much, although the armor is more helpful. If you're spamming spells, you need pots. (Speaking of which, engineers should have the highest mana regen). However, force shield isn't too hard to overwhelm.

2. Leech isn't as useful against mobs. Targets are usually dead, except for bosses. Whither too.

3. That I agree with, although transference too can be cut off if the target dies too early. Pain also suffers from this weakness. There is a delay before the blast in pain. If the target survives though, the damage is decent. Usually though, even in delta 7, the mobs die too fast for the second blast.

4. Ops have dual pistol, so not really an advantage.

5. Dependent on playstyle. I find myself using fewer health pots than other 2 classes, but more mana pots.


I don't know why op needs a buff. They pump out a very high volume of damage, and while vulnerable, they have an ability to vastly buff their dodge if they wish to.



Edit:
As it stands, right now engineers have to lock onto a target, use skills like pain or transferrence and switch over to another target. It's a suboptimal strategy. If you don't switch over to another target, you're DOT spells won't be used to their full effect. If you do, there's a pretty good chance that a teammate is going to kill the target anyways before your DOT takes full effect.

[ThisGuy0502]

Plus... ppl hav not made a twink engineer so that being said there are still some of single targeted skills
Wither, leech
Plus with the armor buffs and still 2 skills that are unknown right now cause of the betas limits... it could be anything... it could be a skill that could easly wipe a op right off the pvp field

[Flowman]

I'm assuming with the release of purples/pinks we will see Engineer armor having some decent M/S buffs. I never said Leech was useful, I just said that 3 such skills exist. I don't have a point in Leech since the levels we play in aren't too tough. The wielding the different weapons point was combating the idea that Engineers aren't powerful. They can wield the same weapons as commandos, and as far as I've seen most commandos wield the Plat Rifles.

Also my force shield goes up to 3 m/s when I cast it. I don't find myself using too many mana potions either.

[WhoIsThis]

Plus... ppl hav not made a twink engineer so that being said there are still some of single targeted skills
Wither, leech
Plus with the armor buffs and still 2 skills that are unknown right now cause of the betas limits... i could be anything... it could be a skill that could easly wipe a op right off the pvp field

Leech and whither in PvE though suffer from what I described above - the target unless a boss, often dies before these skills can take their full effect.

PvP though - I don't know.
Pre-fight:
Engineer casts protection and shield.
Operative buffs dodge (blur).

Right before fight, engineer will cast empathy I imagine.

Then what - operative will likely cast amplify pain, while the engineer will cast transference. The next series of spells for engineer might be pain (which has a delay), leech, and perhaps wither? Op on the other hand is busy debuffing you. Neural shock, mind wreck, and most deadly of all, sympathetic anguish. They could also use a DOT spell on you with flamethrower early on. Remember that op is doing more damage right now.

Spell for spell, weapon shot for weapon, the op does have an advantage. Apart from flamethrower, and that weak rooting spell, psychic lash, all their spells are instant. You've got transference and pain that aren't. They also have the crit and dodge advantage, so they might dodge one of your spells. You do have an armor advantage, but amplify pain negates a lot of it.

Eventually the shield will collapse. Remember, you're being debuffed. So your capacity to steal the other targets life declines steadily as your damage drops.

Edit:
As it stands, I'd say the op has the upper hand.

[Physiologic]

Ops are too overpowered. If stun and knockdown works in PvP, this combo is pretty deadly:

1 Lurch -> Enemy is damaged and knocked down, leaving them unable to attack for a short period of time.
2 Amplify Pain (while enemy is knocked down) -> Severely reduces armor and increases crit chance for Op
3 Flames of Insanity -> DoT attack while enemy is stunned for 3 seconds
4 Mind Wrack/Neural shock/Sympathetic Anguish (while enemy is stunned) -> Enemy is damaged
5 Run away and cast Psychic Lash -> DoT attack while enemy is rooted, unable to move. Wait for cool-downs to finish very briefly
6 Wait for Lurch cool-down to finish, repeat process

I do think Engs may need some sort of damage boost especially for PvP. But then again PvP hasn't even been released so all of this is mere speculation.

[bronislav84]

I agree, but transference is engineers top notch skill and one of the strongest skills in the beta right now... i say that engineers are equal to both op and commando

You're kidding right? Damage output is at least half of the other two classes, if not even less than that. The fact that almost all the damage skills take time to do anything (Pain at least instantly stuns) and most encounters besides bosses don't give you that time is bad. Why do you think so many Engineers don't use the gloves? Because their killing ability is horrible. I rock with a rifle or repeater. Currently using The Foreman because any gloves give me less damage but more DPS. DPS does not affect skills, and a rifle just ends up killing quicker anyway. I've been looking for one.

Now then, let's get my tweak ideas out there.

1. Transference becomes a radius of the same distance as it currently has and it's damage and healing remain the same. Any friendly player within range of any affected mob gets healed for the total damage all mobs are taking, just like now. The only difference is that Transference ceases cutting out due to it's primary target dieing. Make it not require a target, and it's awesome.

2. New skill: Electric Discharge. The Engineer draws power from the gadgets they carry and lets loose a discharge of electricity to hit all targets in a point blank AOE around the caster. Same as PL Lightning, including the armor debuff, but different animation. Should look like electricity comes from their body outward in a radius. Because this would the the only instant damage AOE, it should be probably usable sooner than PL Lightning but not I'm ok with same cooldown time. Each rank increases damage, and possibly the magnitude of the armor debuff. Int scaling and weapon damage scaling as usual. 3 second cooldown, 15 Energy cost.

3. New skill: Turret Fabrication. Summon a small (About half the player's height) floating turret pet that will follow and shoot the same targets as it's owner is currently auto attacking until killed or desummoned by touching the skill again. The turret has it's own health (Scaling appropriately to the level of the player and content, based on rank) and should be healable by the heal skills that affect players. Ranks increase the health of the turret, armor up to 60 (10 per rank, starting with 10 at rank 1), and damage of the turret's single target beam attack. At rank 5 it gains a shield that is equal to half it's health, which slowly recovers over time. At rank 6 the turret's shield becomes equal to it's health and the shied's regeneration speed is doubled. The shield cannot be healed by anything and must come back on it's own. Any damage first hits the shield before hitting the pet. Scale all aspects of the pet on Int as usual, and possibly weapon damage. 20 second cooldown, 30 Energy cost. The cost and cooldown will mean that losing your pet immediately means you can't get it back right away and must make it last.

If a shield is overpowered, then alternatively, the pet can gain a double rate of fire at rank 5 and a cone AOE rocket barrage at rank 6, with a 10 second internal cooldown on it's AOE. Though I honestly don't think the shield is overpowered, since it cannot be healed by any means other than regenerating on it's own and as a force field it should not have any damage mitigation. The pet's armor should only be counted when it's taking direct damage, but the pet should be affected by Protection and the armor/DPS buff from Res and it's damage output should be affected by any debuffs on the target.

What do you guys think?

Also Flow what rank do you start having 3 m/s without having first casted Res?

[ThisGuy0502]

Plus... ppl hav not made a twink engineer so that being said there are still some of single targeted skills
Wither, leech
Plus with the armor buffs and still 2 skills that are unknown right now cause of the betas limits... i could be anything... it could be a skill that could easly wipe a op right off the pvp field

Leech and whither in PvE though suffer from what I described above - the target unless a boss, often dies before these skills can take their full effect.

PvP though - I don't know.
Pre-fight:
Engineer casts protection and shield.
Operative buffs dodge (blur).

Right before fight, engineer will cast empathy I imagine.

Then what - operative will likely cast amplify pain, while the engineer will cast transference. The next series of spells for engineer might be pain (which has a delay), leech, and perhaps wither? Op on the other hand is busy debuffing you. Neural shock, mind wreck, and most deadly of all, sympathetic anguish. They could also use a DOT spell on you with flamethrower early on. Remember that op is doing more damage right now.

Spell for spell, weapon shot for weapon, the op does have an advantage. Apart from flamethrower, and that weak rooting spell, psychic lash, all their spells are instant. You've got transference and pain that aren't. They also have the crit and dodge advantage, so they might dodge one of your spells. You do have an armor advantage, but amplify pain negates a lot of it.

Eventually the shield will collapse. Remember, you're being debuffed. So your capacity to steal the other targets life declines steadily as your damage drops.

Edit:
As it stands, I'd say the op has the upper hand.

True but... with wither at a high level... lets say 5, and the ops low health and armor, wither will consitanly attack you bringging your health down with the engineers having to do nothing.. if i was in a fight i would probably use def buffs, then empathey, then use wither, then use pain for the 3 sec stun, transference, dont for get about the pain so when tranceference is done attacking a blasting blow of pain should finish you off

[WhoIsThis]

True but... with wither at a high level... lets say 5, and the ops low health and armor, wither will consitanly attack you bringging your health down with the engineers having to do nothing.. if i was in a fight i would probably use def buffs, then empathey, then use wither, then use pain for the 3 sec stun, transference, dont for get about the pain so when tranceference is done attacking a blasting blow of pain should finish you off

Your missing the point of what me and Physiologic wrote. Early on, you will be stunned and debuffed. Your spells won't be as powerful as they are in PvE. Your hit % will be lowered. Your armor will be reduced by amplify pain.

Considering how fast-paced PvP is, you don't have time to take advantage of the DOT.

[ThisGuy0502]

Your missing the point of what me and Physiologic wrote. Early on, you will be stunned and debuffed. Your spells won't be as powerful as they are in PvE. Your hit % will be lowered. Your armor will be reduced by amplify pain.

Considering how fast-paced PvP is, you don't have time to take advantage of the DOT.[/QUOTE]

Ok we'll just wait and see

[bronislav84]

Thisguy, on top of what Who said, Op has at least twice the auto attack damage output. The Eng would hardly be doing nothing while the DOTs tick. They'd be struggling to surive getting blasted to pieces. The DOT damage takes tiiiiiiiiiiiiime to work. Time that the Op would spend debuffing and seriously hurting the Eng. How do you not realize this? Either you're just disagreeing to mess with us, or you're just that clueless. Which is it?

Right, so nobody cares about my ideas to improve the class? I worked hard on that.

[Flowman]

Also Flow what rank do you start having 3 m/s without having first casted Res?

I was maxed at 6 when I had it at 3. I respeced down to 3 to try a new set up, and it's at 2 now, so I don;t know it it;s 4, 5 or 6. I liked it at 6 alot more though,

[bronislav84]

Hmmm, interesting, thanks. I really wish somebody with enough plat would figure this out and post it. Besides what rank it becomes 3 m/s on it's own, I've also been wondering exactly how much the shield amount really improves per rank and if it gives more armor. Would be hard to test, as you'd need to go somewhere that can take it down before it ends and add up the damage it can take at each rank. Also I remember taking damage with it on, so might not be absorbing all damage, just some.

Nobody has any thoughts on my ideas. I see how it is.

[Flowman]

Ops are too overpowered. If stun and knockdown works in PvP, this combo is pretty deadly:

1 Lurch -> Enemy is damaged and knocked down, leaving them unable to attack for a short period of time.
2 Amplify Pain (while enemy is knocked down) -> Severely reduces armor and increases crit chance for Op
3 Flames of Insanity -> DoT attack while enemy is stunned for 3 seconds
4 Mind Wrack/Neural shock/Sympathetic Anguish (while enemy is stunned) -> Enemy is damaged
5 Run away and cast Psychic Lash -> DoT attack while enemy is rooted, unable to move. Wait for cool-downs to finish very briefly
6 Wait for Lurch cool-down to finish, repeat process

I do think Engs may need some sort of damage boost especially for PvP. But then again PvP hasn't even been released so all of this is mere speculation.

I'm sure STS will have the skills cause different effects in pvp as yes, the engineer will have no chance against the commando or the operative

[AOmonsta]

Random Question: Is there any word of melee weapons?