Comprehensive: Why bears have the short-end of the character stick -- Long read.

[Ellyidol]

bears need more area of effect attacks, right now theres only really 2; beckon and stomp (hellscream is a debuff)

i suggest get rid of that health regen one and one of the slash attacks
and replace them with charge and an attack where you spin around - tornado slice maybe

As lovely as that sounds, I don't think just giving bears more AoE attacks would solve the problems either.

At the moment, BS is already easy enough to clear with a bear + bird/mage, just timing of combos and skills. I can't imagine how easy it'd be to solo for a bear given another AoE skill

am i the only one that has a duel spec int str bear lol
their stats are quite nice (%110 hit 21 crit 738 health 17 h/ps 10 m/ps)

sorry to hear about your laptop simnar

What's your gear? Sounds like the gear has good stats.

nice thread first of all

now just to clarify my opinions are shortsighted since i dont have a character over lvl 31
however one thing that struck me from the beginning of the game was what the main stats (str, dex, int) increase

you would think that any melee would have a much greater hit chance than a ranged weapon thus i think str should increase hit % the most and dex should increase hit% the least (i think its the other way around right now, correct me if im wrong)

from my limited experience, bears have terrible hit % when they should be the highest since they are meant to be a melee character

i think this change would resolve a lot of problems, even in low lvl pvp since full dex bears would no longer be viable due to a crappy hit% and most would be forced to go dual build (with mostly str) or full str and then birds and mages might have a chance to actually kite like they are supposed to

because atm the only thing ive seen a low lvl dex bear have problems with in pvp is a well played pally due to some crazy high heals

Although it's possible that fixing the stat points would decrease the amount of full dex bears, I think the strongest reason why they go dex is for the range to maximize Rage.

Rage 6 is what makes a bear shine in lower-end PvP, IMO.

That said, changes shouldn't be made to cater to lower-end PvP or twinking, but only two things. PvE and end-game PvP.

I agree with every thing. In PvP beckon gives a confuse bonus and it pulls the enemy toward u.(if u hav 6 becon stomp and rage the its nearly a 1 hit against mage with 400 hp) bird it just confuses it enough to do damage and the finish it off with a high damage weapon. So bears don't always hav the short end of the stick.(if u play ur cards right)

If I'm not mistaken, and if I understood 'confuse' correctly, Beckon only has a 50% chance to stun.

So Beckon could either,

Miss entirely, no stun or pull.
Miss the pull, stuns but no pull.
Miss the sun, no stun but it pulls.
Both connect, stuns and pulls.

Very odds based don't you think? And this is just one skill.

Let's make it a perfect situation.

Beckon fully connects, that would mean your range problem is almost solved since you actually got Beckon off and pull him towards you.
What does the bird/mage do? Push you back? Root you? His skills crit and your dodge not working and pretty much kills you?

Let's say he does nothing.

He's next to you, you'd want to kill him right? Assuming you have quick fingers, you're allowed 2 skills pre-stomp to make it in time for the combo. Let's say you use Crushing Blow (reduces dodge of the target for the following skills), SMS (most damaging slash), then Stomp (combo finisher).

That's the ideal combo for a bird. But, however ideal it is, it still goes through the problems I mentioned earlier.

Range - Close to impossible that a bird/mage just lets you pull him and stands there not doing anything, most probably they will pushback/root or combo you first altogether. If they do, you are either stuck in place with only Stomp to get out of (another issue) or you are pushed back to square 1 with no Beckon to use or dead.

Hit % - Beckon hit chance, CB hit chance, SMS hit chance, Stomp hit chance. Note, chance.

Odds - Like you said, they'd have to crit. Beckon crit chance, CB crit chance, SMS crit chance, Stomp crit chance. Again, chance.

Damage - Assuming they all crit, damage isn't an issue anymore since crits already double your damage. But what if they don't? I doubt your damage will be enough to kill a bird or clear the mana shield off a mage.

This is the one thing that I never understood about bears. You're up close and personal. You should have the inate ability to hit something with a sword, right? I mean, if you're strong enough it's not like you have a problem swinging that thing around.

I guess it would be a different story if you were Mr. Magoo the Barbarian.

Let's say they do fix the Hit % issue. I still think that bears lack what all warriors are supposed to have - damage.

Like you said, if they're strong enough to carry that huge Royal Sewer Battle Hammer, how are they not strong enough to have the most damage in the game?

The problem is that with that logical explanation, this is still a fantasy game.

Instead of increasing hit%, and AOE attacks (You guys have more than avians, lol) perhaps an upgraded sort of Iron Blood that decreases damage for a short while. The short while would be all that you need, as that's how long PvP matches at end game usually last. A LOT of damage, not some measly 30 armor from Iron Blood.

Like, a self buff/summon armor that absorbs about 150 damage, or maybe reduces damage done to you by about 60 more. That would be great, it would be helpful, I'm not sure it would help very much though. :/

I agree, instead of giving us better or more offensive capabilities, let us tank for real.

I still stand by my thought that Charge would do us so much good. It doesn't even need damage within itself, maybe a short stun. If we can charge, we can fully utilize all our skills. Slashes, debuffs, and actually use normal attack.

Armour is almost non-significant in terms of being tanks. Although it reduces damage, reducing double damage from crits doesn't really cut it. Also, armour doesn't negate any sort of root/freeze no matter how high your armour is or how low the root/freeze is. Only dodge fully makes you survive.

[noobmigo]

I agree, Charge would be a wonderful addition to any bear, but how is that applicable to PvE?
I think that some kind of ranged strength weapon (I mean come on, how about reappearing spears?) would/should be in development.
If it's just about breaking out of the freeze/root, I'd suggest some kind of Passive Skill, (Finally Passives) that would usher in a new skill era, that involves passives. It would be like "Warm Aura", thus melting any freeze and burning any root.

[Ellyidol]

I agree, Charge would be a wonderful addition to any bear, but how is that applicable to PvE?
I think that some kind of ranged strength weapon (I mean come on, how about reappearing spears?) would/should be in development.
If it's just about breaking out of the freeze/root, I'd suggest some kind of Passive Skill, (Finally Passives) that would usher in a new skill era, that involves passives. It would be like "Warm Aura", thus melting any freeze and burning any root.

I think there was a short discussion on page 2 about Charge for PvE, it'd allow bears to actually charge ahead and be in front of the group instead of pulling the mobs towards the group.

It'd also help by allowing bears to stay in front in general, IMO. As easy as sounds to just gather mobs, then leave for the group to kill, it isn't always as easy as it seems. Not to mention if you have a really good and quick group of mages/birds, bears tend to fall behind and end up just doing one Beckon, that's it - in BS at least.

The longest ranged melee weapon is the lance/harpoon of some sort right? I could be wrong, never paid much attention to the normal attack range of melee weapons 3 or 4m?

And yeah, passives would be awesome. It'd require so much rebalancing though..

[noobmigo]

I think there was a short discussion on page 2 about Charge for PvE, it'd allow bears to actually charge ahead and be in front of the group instead of pulling the mobs towards the group.

It'd also help by allowing bears to stay in front in general, IMO. As easy as sounds to just gather mobs, then leave for the group to kill, it isn't always as easy as it seems. Not to mention if you have a really good and quick group of mages/birds, bears tend to fall behind and end up just doing one Beckon, that's it - in BS at least.

The longest ranged melee weapon is the lance/harpoon of some sort right? I could be wrong, never paid much attention to the normal attack range of melee weapons 3 or 4m?

And yeah, passives would be awesome. It'd require so much rebalancing though..

Ranged Strength Weapons
I mean throwable spears. Awwwesome!

Charge
I guess that is a good application to PvE. Charge skill, yay!

Passives
Yes, major rebalancing. Good for the game, we need balance. I can just imagine the mass number of birds leaving because they enjoyed so much time being spoiled in PvP and it's ALL OVER! I hate that. This would definitely allow "Skill Trees" of some imaginative sort, as it could offer you a choice of whether to put them into defensive passives or offensives.

[Ellyidol]

Ranged Strength Weapons
I mean throwable spears. Awwwesome!

Charge
I guess that is a good application to PvE. Charge skill, yay!

Passives
Yes, major rebalancing. Good for the game, we need balance. I can just imagine the mass number of birds leaving because they enjoyed so much time being spoiled in PvP and it's ALL OVER! I hate that. This would definitely allow "Skill Trees" of some imaginative sort, as it could offer you a choice of whether to put them into defensive passives or offensives.

Haha, that'd be very interesting! Ranged Strength Weapons. So much stronger talons, slower attack speeds but more damage and range?

I agree, we need balance. Especially after GCD. The previous rebalancing of gear/stats/skills definitely gave the game more headroom, but it seems almost used up after just one campaign. With the likes of the Custom set compounded with the +60 crit of a mage, that's easily over 100% crit rate, which I thought was the reason for the previous rebalancing in the first place. If I remember correctly, bird dodge + void talon set gave 90+ dodge rate which was one of the reasons for the rebalance. IMO, 100+ crit is also as good a reason to call for another rebalance. Just an isolated case to use as an example here, not saying that it's the only reason for the imbalance.

[noobmigo]

Haha, that'd be very interesting! Ranged Strength Weapons. So much stronger talons, slower attack speeds but more damage and range?

I agree, we need balance. Especially after GCD. The previous rebalancing of gear/stats/skills definitely gave the game more headroom, but it seems almost used up after just one campaign. With the likes of the Custom set compounded with the +60 crit of a mage, that's easily over 100% crit rate, which I thought was the reason for the previous rebalancing in the first place. If I remember correctly, bird dodge + void talon set gave 90+ dodge rate which was one of the reasons for the rebalance. IMO, 100+ crit is also as good a reason to call for another rebalance.

Lol yes! I'd think maybe 3-4 more meters, as a spear is longer than a talon, definitely slower attack speeds, perhaps "reload/respawn" time.

I really didn't get GCD at all. Didn't help AT ALL. IMO. And it seems they keep on reducing the GCD times every 2 days. lol. It's too short now.

[Ellyidol]

Lol yes! I'd think maybe 3-4 more meters, as a spear is longer than a talon, definitely slower attack speeds, perhaps "reload/respawn" time.

I really didn't get GCD at all. Didn't help AT ALL. IMO. And it seems they keep on reducing the GCD times every 2 days. lol. It's too short now.

Interestingly could work. There has to be a catch to it though, or all bears would start using that 1H throwing spear instead of 1H swords

Hmm. Although it's short, I feel it's helped. I don't think the only purpose of GCD was to slow down the uber fast game play, but to deal with the device difference problem.

IMO, GCD is just nice at where it is now. Not too slow that it puts slow players and fast players at par, but it successfully removes the multi-touch issue from device differences before

[Elyseon]

I brought up ranged strength weapons a long time ago but everybody said it would make them overpowered...(mostly mages and birds saying this)
But I had thought javelins(throwing spears), and throwing axes

[Ellyidol]

I brought up ranged strength weapons a long time ago but everybody said it would make them overpowered...(mostly mages and birds saying this)
But I had thought javelins(throwing spears), and throwing axes

Actually, if I think about it, ranged strength weapons would be interesting and could work on paper, but it would really seem more like a stronger talon.

Even bears with talons have the same problem as I stated, so I would much rather prefer just stronger melee weapons, but with the fixes elsewhere.

[noobmigo]

Interestingly could work. There has to be a catch to it though, or all bears would start using that 1H throwing spear instead of 1H swords

Hmm. Although it's short, I feel it's helped. I don't think the only purpose of GCD was to slow down the uber fast game play, but to deal with the device difference problem.

IMO, GCD is just nice at where it is now. Not too slow that it puts slow players and fast players at par, but it successfully removes the multi-touch issue from device differences before

Less damage than a sword, ofc. Or maybe more damage, less DPS.

[Tvis]

Give warriors a 2X permanent walking speed and call it good ;D

[noobmigo]

Give warriors a 2X permanent walking speed and call it good ;D

That would OP twinks at 20 even more. I'd definitely like an END GAME skill, perhaps gained at 39, when bears start feeling the effects.

[Ellyidol]

Give warriors a 2X permanent walking speed and call it good ;D

Might help remedy the problems, but I dont think it'll solve them outright

Like migo said, although balance shouldn't prioritize twinking pvp/pve before end game, it'd make the lower level bears too OP.

[Otukura]

Aggro - Give Taunt a 100% success rate, a fixed amount of time aggro'd, and an uninterruptile Taunted/Aggro'd status.

What do you think of in addition to that, give bears a 10/20/30..60% armor boost(play with the numbers) for 1.5/2..-4 seconds(again, play with the numbers). It would give bears more of an incentive to taunt. Reason I had the % was because of what we've seen with rage -- bears dominate low end with that.

[Ellyidol]

What do you think of in addition to that, give bears a 10/20/30..60% armor boost(play with the numbers) for 1.5/2..-4 seconds(again, play with the numbers). It would give bears more of an incentive to taunt. Reason I had the % was because of what we've seen with rage -- bears dominate low end with that.

That could work, I've actually also had a thought about bears being armour based instead of dodge too.

Change Evade to a damage reduction %, change Taunt to an armour boost, and tweak Iron Blood. I just find it very unconventional how tanks rely on dodge (chance) to actually tank. Different is okay, but an odds reliant tank to successfully tank just doesn't seem right.

[Barrington]

@ellyidol im using the 1h rift set right now

[WhoIsThis]

I think that a charge skill might be too big of a rebalance. How about the following instead?: No matter how low your hit% as a bear and how high the target's dodge %, beckon never misses. Currently, I think that the biggest weakness melee has over ranged is that if beckon misses, the bear is in serious trouble, especially against birds who can basically root and finish the bear off pretty fast. In PvE, having a never miss beckon gives an incentive again to be pure strength.

I agree with the other suggestions. Taunt needs a bit of a rework to make it effective for bears to tank. Taunt should give a brief moment in PvE where everyone has to fire on the tank. (This would not be advisable in PvP because in group fights, unless bears become OP, they would die pretty fast from 3-4 people hitting the bear at once). Agree with the Hell Scream becoming the skill to loosen up roots and freezes.

Weapons in particular need a buff. The Gurgox Hammer should not be the most potent weapon by damage per hit - the 2h level 55 weapons need a buff to be worth wearing.

Edit:
I think that fundamentally, the devs are trying to make bears into real tanks and not damage dealers, so perhaps the suggestions should be geared in that direction. Not too sure about evade being a damage reduction % though. It seems that evade and taunt would become just a variation of iron blood. Instead, perhaps a buff on iron blood would do?

[Air]

When you asked for a Charging skill >.<, I was thinking in my head if they will make a mini Dash for bears
Have not play much with a bear character, so no opinions.
Good long thread though I had fun reading it.

[Ellyidol]

@ellyidol im using the 1h rift set right now

Ah yes, the 1H Rift Set. Still my favourite set in the game in terms of suitability for the bear.

I think that a charge skill might be too big of a rebalance. How about the following instead?: No matter how low your hit% as a bear and how high the target's dodge %, beckon never misses. Currently, I think that the biggest weakness melee has over ranged is that if beckon misses, the bear is in serious trouble, especially against birds who can basically root and finish the bear off pretty fast. In PvE, having a never miss beckon gives an incentive again to be pure strength.

I agree with the other suggestions. Taunt needs a bit of a rework to make it effective for bears to tank. Taunt should give a brief moment in PvE where everyone has to fire on the tank. (This would not be advisable in PvP because in group fights, unless bears become OP, they would die pretty fast from 3-4 people hitting the bear at once). Agree with the Hell Scream becoming the skill to loosen up roots and freezes.

Weapons in particular need a buff. The Gurgox Hammer should not be the most potent weapon by damage per hit - the 2h level 55 weapons need a buff to be worth wearing.

Edit:
I think that fundamentally, the devs are trying to make bears into real tanks and not damage dealers, so perhaps the suggestions should be geared in that direction. Not too sure about evade being a damage reduction % though. It seems that evade and taunt would become just a variation of iron blood. Instead, perhaps a buff on iron blood would do?

I think that was how Beckon was before, 100% Hit rate. Although it could work, an always successful Beckon doesn't do as much compared to a better Hit % fix though, IMO. Although a Beckon brings them closer, and bears revert to full str with the current gear sets (lets use Fury/Fortified set), their hit would still be roughly 66%. With them being close, majority of the rest of the skills wouldn't connect either.

But with my current setup now of 96% Hit and an always successful Beckon, it could work. If that was the case, I wouldn't mind having no change to damage at all but being more tanky instead. Defensive capabilities > any type of offensive capabilities for bears, IMO.

And yeah, the reason why I thought about Evade and Taunt being more armour based was to make the bear more consistent instead of chance (dodge) reliant. IMO, the bear or tank should be the most consistent character in the game, high armour which constantly makes him a tank and high damage which constantly makes him a warrior.

I agree, if devs are planning to go down the defensive path, I hope they make us real tanks.

[noobmigo]

Ah yes, the 1H Rift Set. Still my favourite set in the game in terms of suitability for the bear.





But with my current setup now of 96% Hit and an always successful Beckon, it could work. If that was the case, I wouldn't mind having no change to damage at all but being more tanky instead. Defensive capabilities > any type of offensive capabilities for bears, IMO.

And yeah, the reason why I thought about Evade and Taunt being more armour based was to make the bear more consistent instead of chance (dodge) reliant. IMO, the bear or tank should be the most consistent character in the game, high armour which constantly makes him a tank and high damage which constantly makes him a warrior.

I agree, if devs are planning to go down the defensive path, I hope they make us real tanks.

Personally, I like Hate set better. I use it for my birdy, horrid damage, but I never die anymore.

High Armour and High Damage = OP, JTLYK.



Again, if you put passives into the equation, you could choose to be a well rounded tank, a pure tank, or a bearsurker.

However, there should for no reason, EVER be ANY High Armour AND High Damage Classes in ANY game.

I've always been a Passive Skill guy, any game. Perhaps having one ENORMOUS AoE Debuff would make it a lot easier?