Feedback: Engineers are fighting on the playground

[kamikazees]

I got my first boot yesterday while playing on my Engineer. I am lvl 25 and joined a group starting a Guardian run. The host commented, "already have engie," and I responded, "ok". Then the boot came, with reason "stinky" (which I have edited for content).

While his reason was childish, it got me thinking. The recent changes to Empathy now allow it to last longer than its recharge. Both Protection and the buffs from Revive also last far longer than their recharge. Those three skills are the main support offered by the Engineer. Because they do not stack, Engineers are effectively "locking out" other party Engineers from using Empathy, Protection or Revive. It happens a lot. I have been on the locked and locking end. It is worse if your skills are a higher level than the Engineer who has you locked out.

The only time multiple Engineers are needed is if the party spreads out or splits up, the first Engineer runs out of mana or if one Engineer is not paying attention. This is not the same for Commandos and Operatives. Commandos carry cannons that do AOE damage, and can keep enemies pinned about 40% of the time. Multiple Commandos can keep enemies nearly stun-locked and under AOE fire, which is really great. And multiple Operatives... it is hard to keep up with how fast multiple Operatives can move through a map.

I really like my Engineer, but I hope this situation is not what was intended for this great class. I've been trying to think of some ideas, because I agree that simply stacking buffs may make them overpowered.

Instead, how about changing Empathy so that if it is already active on a player when cast, it does an instant, smaller heal instead of being wasted? Or, allowing it to do the same (or slightly reduced) healing, but over 1 or 2 delay/heal pattern(s) and 3 or 6 seconds, with the same recharge? That way the same healing could be applied, and still as a DOT, but with a window for another Engineer to step in cover a gap.

Protection, if aready active on a player, could instead convert the next single damage packet received by a character into some healing. Or it might be better off working somewhat like Force Shield, absorbing or reducing a little more damage, but then breaking. Multiple Engineers could then effectively use the skill.

Just a couple of ideas. Thanks for reading.

[Zaltiar]

Just ignore them, Engineers are always handy to have in a game, may it be one or two.
and yeah, I agree with you that the skills become pretty much useless when already casted and is a waste of those skill points,
you have some good ideas there, hopefully devs will come up with something in the future
this game is still in the works, so there's still a lot of changes to come

[bronislav84]

I think all Empathy should stack for more heals (Because who doesn't love heals?), and all Protection should retime each other. The duration in Protection seems to have been cut in half since it was changed to not stack, and this would remedy the problem.

It's just ridiculous that Engineers get locked out because their skills don't stack, and something needs to be done to promote group play with 2 or more. Nobody should be thrown out for that.

[StompArtist]

Unless the group was full of engineers I do not see how having a 2nd eng would hurt the run in any way. Ignore the person who booted you.

[IBNobody]

And so it begins...

[Conradin]

I believe that this is bad too- I think maybe the heals shouldn't stack- but definitely the DOT spells and debuffs. This is why we need two skill paths to go on for each char commando= tank or bazooka Operative= Dps closefire or long-range heavy fire Engineer= complete Buff/healer with extremely strong buffs/heals or DOT wizards that use traps and Dot spells to kill opponents. Each of the the two classes could have different skill trees. This would be great because ATM there are no hybrids.

Just an idea I would liketo see.

[Flowman]

I like when the only engineer dies at the boss and everyone goes "oh noes shoulda kept the 2nd engineer"

[kamikazees]

Unless the group was full of engineers I do not see how having a 2nd eng would hurt the run in any way. Ignore the person who booted you.

I appreciate the advice, but I don't mean to draw attention to the boot so much as the reasoning underlying the boot. Having multiple engineers hurts the run in that you have a character who is unable to use her most important skills. She can auto-attack (or use her secondary skills), hope she lives if the first engineer is killed, or try to chase down party members who wander outside the first Engineer's range. Kind of a sad role, really.

I like when the only engineer dies at the boss and everyone goes "oh noes shoulda kept the 2nd engineer"

Haha! I hope that happened.

[Breadkeeper]

Another reason to have 2 engies, is the pain control. Me and my 'Main Officer" always run together and we are both engies. We can pin down gaurdian by both throwing our pains out at different times. Takes paying attention, but its a big help. Heck, 2 Engies with Pain defeat the need for a commando on gaurdian runs. haha.

You were in a newb group who do not know how to adapt. Ill run any combonation of classes for a gaurdian run as long as there is 1 engi. Being myself. haha.

[mycroftxxx]

There have always been people who boot for stupid reasons. E.g., I got booted from a game because they just didn't like the name of the guild I was in. If it's one instance, just move on.

[AOmonsta]

Personally I hate being only eng on Guardian. I've done it with decent success but don't care for it.

Yea if you run with only one eng and he's downed. Your pretty screwed.

[thequickone]

Not all Engineers are cut from the same cloth. Some are playing "non-support" or lesser emphasis on support builds. And dare I say it, some are just more capable than others. Be careful booting an Engineer just because the group already has one or more. You may end up with the one that cannot or will not revive you!

Plus, booting a player can be a pretty upsetting event for the bootee. If you must boot, please take the time to explain yourself, before the boot if possible. Be courteous and choose your words wisely. Remember, we're all in this GAME together!

[Raulur]

Pain with multiple engineers works very well. Even better to have 3, that way 2 can concentrate on pain timing and the other one can concentrate on heals and buffs.

What bugs me is guardian runs with multiple coms: the never ending boss battle.

[WhoIsThis]

This is the consequence of making engineer a pure support unit: there is the perception that they are a liability when there is more than 1 or 2 due to their inferior damage output. It is partially justified; having too many engineers increases the length of a run.

I have said it in this forum and I will say it again, engineer needs better damage output.

[n00b13st]

I'm fine with these skills not stacking (believing this means strictly adding together, i.e. defense increase plus defense increase plus...). I'd like to see them just extend duration (retime, as someone above said.) That allows more tan one eng in a group to act as FT/HA (as we say at work, fault tolerant/highly available) units in the eng function.

Stacking would be fun but only for the eng class. :-)

[bronislav84]

This is the consequence of making engineer a pure support unit: there is the perception that they are a liability when there is more than 1 or 2 due to their inferior damage output. It is partially justified; having too many engineers increases the length of a run.

I have said it in this forum and I will say it again, engineer needs better damage output.

I agree, and made a whole thread about this that went without a Dev reply. Search it and post in it expressing support for great justice?

By the way guys, I'll say it again Empathy should stack and Protection same ranks should retime!

[Raulur]

Damage output is fine... Try running with all comms and prepare for marathon boss fight. Fastest run I have been a part of so far was 3 eng, 2 op. When I can regularly pull aggro from everyone at the Guardian, I must be doing ok damage right?

There are just no flashy skills that debuff or k/d like the other two, but that would probably be overpowered.

If a noobie group only wants one engie, then you'd be better off in another group anyway.

[Misdemeanour]

I got my first boot yesterday while playing on my Engineer. I am lvl 25 and joined a group starting a Guardian run. The host commented, "already have engie," and I responded, "ok". Then the boot came, with reason "stinky" (which I have edited for content).

I agree with Zaltiar, ignore them.
Eng's are always needed! Just because 1 eng is able to carry the group doesn't mean they do. I've been out of range, the eng was preoccupied, or just not switched on. Your boot had nothing to do with you being an eng. Eng's are just as useful and capable as other chars on the ground.