[Design Blog] On Balance - Adjusting items not working as intended

[Carapace]

From a different perspective what we're saying is that we've identified an issue with Aimed Shot that needed to be addressed for us to better make balance adjustments moving forward. There may be a noticeable difference for players and there might not depending on the use of this combination, if there IS a notable difference than we can re-add that damage in another area of Aim Shot, or the Rogue's overall kit in order to make up that difference and bring them where they should be. Currently this number was putting a lot of noise in the damage output of the Rogue in some cases and needed to be stabilized before we can make further adjustments.

Think of this as a precursor to potential Rogue improvements and enhancements, and not as a nerf because a nerf implies that we do not intend to bring it back up. Depending on the circumstances we will bring up the Rogue again where necessary. It certainly doesn't guarantee that we will, but it is a possibility

[Zeus]

From a different perspective what we're saying is that we've identified an issue with Aimed Shot that needed to be addressed for us to better make balance adjustments moving forward. There may be a noticeable difference for players and there might not depending on the use of this combination, if there IS a notable difference than we can re-add that damage in another area of Aim Shot, or the Rogue's overall kit in order to make up that difference and bring them where they should be. Currently this number was putting a lot of noise in the damage output of the Rogue in some cases and needed to be stabilized before we can make further adjustments.

Think of this as a precursor to potential Rogue improvements and enhancements, and not as a nerf because a nerf implies that we do not intend to bring it back up. Depending on the circumstances we will bring up the Rogue again where necessary. It certainly doesn't guarantee that we will, but it is a possibility

All existing balances were made while keeping in mind how hard rogue hits. Are you saying that developers are going to move the damage in another area of Aimed Shot so it hits just as hard as it did previously? We really cannot afford any more reductions in performance to this class. It has already been well established that rogues are no longer needed in PvP. Heck, we have warriors admitting it right here. I do realize the developer team has statistical data but they need to test what happens to a rogue against a warrior and mage team. Provided the warrior and mages know what they are doing, the rogues get simply annihilated. There's no strategy one can play to combat it.

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

All existing balances were made while keeping in mind how hard rogue hits. Are you saying that developers are going to move the damage in another area of Aimed Shot so it hits just as hard as it did previously? We really cannot afford any more reductions in performance to this class. It has already been well established that rogues are no longer needed in PvP. Heck, we have warriors admitting it right here. I do realize the developer team has statistical data but they need to test what happens to a rogue against a warrior and mage team. Provided the warrior and mages know what they are doing, the rogues get simply annihilated. There's no strategy one can play to combat it.

Consistency is the big factor here. Right now with Aimed Shot, you're punished by a large margin of damage for not taking a specific set of upgrades, and none of those upgrades says "Deal 2x more damage".

Some examples of the way this could be reworked, once the issue with Aimed Shot has been corrected (these are just things that could be done):
- All damage of Aimed Shot increases, no matter what upgrades you have, to balance out the old potential Maximum
- That large spike of maximum damage in Aimed Shot is moved to other abilities so that Rogue's aren't so reliant on only Aimed Shot
- Rogues become less glass cannon because they don't have the huge spike in damage
- Mastery for Aimed Shot is adjusted to also allow a damage increase

There's a lot that can be done, but is reliant on the ability being consistent and working as intended

To clarify, we are not saying "Rogues deal too much damage and need to be nerfed". We are saying "Aimed Shot is broken and this is affecting Rogues. We need to correct Aimed Shot and figure out how to adjust Rogues after the fact."

[CouchPass]

Consistency is the big factor here. Right now with Aimed Shot, you're punished by a large margin of damage for not taking a specific set of upgrades, and none of those upgrades says "Deal 2x more damage".

Some examples of the way this could be reworked, once the issue with Aimed Shot has been corrected (these are just things that could be done):
- All damage of Aimed Shot increases, no matter what upgrades you have, to balance out the old potential Maximum
- That large spike of maximum damage in Aimed Shot is moved to other abilities so that Rogue's aren't so reliant on only Aimed Shot
- Rogues become less glass cannon because they don't have the huge spike in damage
- Mastery for Aimed Shot is adjusted to also allow a damage increase

There's a lot that can be done, but is reliant on the ability being consistent and working as intended

To clarify, we are not saying "Rogues deal too much damage and need to be nerfed". We are saying "Aimed Shot is broken and this is affecting Rogues. We need to correct Aimed Shot and figure out how to adjust Rogues after the fact."

No Vroom, we're still a glass cannon, just more glass, and less cannon.

[Bameely]

To clarify, we are not saying "Rogues deal too much damage and need to be nerfed". We are saying "Aimed Shot is broken and this is affecting Rogues. We need to correct Aimed Shot and figure out how to adjust Rogues after the fact."

Sorry but everything that is being done reads to me that : "We are going to break Aimed Shot and this will be affecting rogues".

[ilhanna]

Consistency is the big factor here. Right now with Aimed Shot, you're punished by a large margin of damage for not taking a specific set of upgrades, and none of those upgrades says "Deal 2x more damage".

But most if not all rogues take all of the upgrades, so in what way are we punished again?

Some examples of the way this could be reworked, once the issue with Aimed Shot has been corrected (these are just things that could be done):
- All damage of Aimed Shot increases, no matter what upgrades you have, to balance out the old potential Maximum
- That large spike of maximum damage in Aimed Shot is moved to other abilities so that Rogue's aren't so reliant on only Aimed Shot Other skills have their function but they can't fully substitute aimed shot for the specific function it's used for: single target damage.
- Rogues become less glass cannon because they don't have the huge spike in damage Why is it wrong to be a glass cannon when that's exactly the role rogues play?
- Mastery for Aimed Shot is adjusted to also allow a damage increase Mastery can only be accessed by players level 20 and above. End game rogues already have to spend half of their skills points on passives, we make do without some support skills like veil and trap to make it possible for us to put mastery points to maximize nox bolt and shadow storm shot, I'm already switching builds with different skills sets for different maps, I shudder to think of what lower level rogues and those without a ton of respec scrolls for switching builds will say about making mastery a necessity to maximize aimed shot.

To clarify, we are not saying "Rogues deal too much damage and need to be nerfed". We are saying "Aimed Shot is broken and this is affecting Rogues. We need to correct Aimed Shot and figure out how to adjust Rogues after the fact."

I still can't understand why it's broken from your perspective because from mine it's not. It's doing its job.

My comments in bold.

[Tatman]

From a different perspective what we're saying is that we've identified an issue with Aimed Shot that needed to be addressed for us to better make balance adjustments moving forward. There may be a noticeable difference for players and there might not depending on the use of this combination, if there IS a notable difference than we can re-add that damage in another area of Aim Shot, or the Rogue's overall kit in order to make up that difference and bring them where they should be. Currently this number was putting a lot of noise in the damage output of the Rogue in some cases and needed to be stabilized before we can make further adjustments.

Think of this as a precursor to potential Rogue improvements and enhancements, and not as a nerf because a nerf implies that we do not intend to bring it back up. Depending on the circumstances we will bring up the Rogue again where necessary. It certainly doesn't guarantee that we will, but it is a possibility

All endgame rogues (and the high level twinks too), who aren't totally clueless, use only one combination - Aimed shot 5/5. If this is the combination, or if it's something else that's included in 5/5 anyway, of course it's a nerf. I've said it probably 100 times already - go play competitively as a rogue and see for yourselves if there is a need for this.

Same goes for other nerfs like the wildfire one by the way. Finally something cool for pve mages and you find an "issue". Actually, finally the game felt balanced pve-wise (to me at least) and you start "fixing" and "balancing". To what end?

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

All endgame rogues (and the high level twinks too), who aren't totally clueless, use only one combination - Aimed shot 5/5. If this is the combination, or if it's something else that's included in 5/5 anyway, of course it's a nerf. I've said it probably 100 times already - go play competitively as a rogue and see for yourselves if there is a need for this.

To reiterate: We are not saying Rogues are too strong and need to be nerfed. We are only saying that Aimed Shot is broken and needs to be fixed. The amount that Rogues rely on Aimed Shot and how much of a crutch the broken aspects of Aimed Shot were to their balance have yet to be seen and understood.

Unfortunately this does mean at the moment Aimed Shot cannot hit as high as it used to while we evaluate and understand how the Rogue class needs to be adjusted.

[Zeus]

To reiterate: We are not saying Rogues are too strong and need to be nerfed. We are only saying that Aimed Shot is broken and needs to be fixed. The amount that Rogues rely on Aimed Shot and how much of a crutch the broken aspects of Aimed Shot were to their balance have yet to be seen and understood.

Unfortunately this does mean at the moment Aimed Shot cannot hit as high as it used to while we evaluate and understand how the Rogue class needs to be adjusted.

Can we have a time frame on how long we'd need to suffer? xD

Or, is there any way we can keep the aimed shot until developers find an effective replacement that players agree with?

[Visiting]

Can we have a time frame on how long we'd need to suffer? xD

Or, is there any way we can keep the aimed shot until developers find an effective replacement that players agree with?

Time to rev up that test server :>

[ilhanna]

To reiterate: We are not saying Rogues are too strong and need to be nerfed. We are only saying that Aimed Shot is broken and needs to be fixed. The amount that Rogues rely on Aimed Shot and how much of a crutch the broken aspects of Aimed Shot were to their balance have yet to be seen and understood.

Unfortunately this does mean at the moment Aimed Shot cannot hit as high as it used to while we evaluate and understand how the Rogue class needs to be adjusted.

How is aimed shot broken when it has worked just fine for many seasons? How is it a crutch when it's the rogue's defining skill?

[Tatman]

To reiterate: We are not saying Rogues are too strong and need to be nerfed. We are only saying that Aimed Shot is broken and needs to be fixed. The amount that Rogues rely on Aimed Shot and how much of a crutch the broken aspects of Aimed Shot were to their balance have yet to be seen and understood.

Unfortunately this does mean at the moment Aimed Shot cannot hit as high as it used to while we evaluate and understand how the Rogue class needs to be adjusted.

Yes, "crutch" is probably the best word here. You nerfed our armor for no reason whatsoever, now you are doing the same with the only skill in this game that is actually fitting for a classic rogue-like rpg character. Not to mention pretty much all our masteries plain suck, I'm sorry, but that's the truth. Now, unless you have a better idea for rogue skills, and an idea that can be implemented asap, I strongly advice you against this unnecessary nerf.

[Zynzyn]

All the buffs and nerfs until now over 3 years to all classes was done keeping in mind the damage output from Rogue's aimedshot. Nobody complained after rogue's armor was nerfed and after other classes were buffed recently. Rogues were least needed now and the main complaint was against Warriors. It felt as though everything was close to being balanced and just when things were stable yet again another unnecessary change. Nothing and no technical explanation justifies this.

[ilhanna]

There may be a noticeable difference for players and there might not depending on the use of this combination, if there IS a notable difference than we can re-add that damage in another area of Aim Shot, or the Rogue's overall kit in order to make up that difference and bring them where they should be.

Play a rogue and see what other arsenal in a rogue kit can fully substitute aimed shotbfor its purpose against single enemies? Nox bolt? Mage can do DoT way better. Shadow storm shot? Same thing with nox. Shadow piercer? We don't have warrior health and armor. Trap? Veil? Razor shield? Too late to make April Fool's joke now.

Currently this number was putting a lot of noise in the damage output of the Rogue in some cases and needed to be stabilized before we can make further adjustments.

A skill allowing rogues to perform their role is considered noise. That's only because you're seeing it from behind the scene. Play the rogue and actually hear the noise in action.

Think of this as a precursor to potential Rogue improvements and enhancements, and not as a nerf because a nerf implies that we do not intend to bring it back up. Depending on the circumstances we will bring up the Rogue again where necessary. It certainly doesn't guarantee that we will, but it is a possibility.

I can't think of this as improvement when it takes me more time and mana to kill in elite.

My comments in bold.