[Design Blog] On Balance - Adjusting items not working as intended

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Hey Arlorians,

I wanted to start a discussion with you all about balance adjustments. Whenever players bring up questions or feedback regarding items or abilities, we look into these items or mechanic in question. Sometimes we discover issues in the items or abilities that require further adjustments. While we understand that players have gotten used to the way this item or ability works, when it’s important for the overall balance of the game we have to make those adjustments.

When a weapon proc or ability is causing more damage than we intend, it not only throws off the balance of the game but it hides where balance problems are. One example I can give is the Wildfire proc. Recently I found the proc was ignoring the armor of enemies on the DoT, which should not happen. This meant a substantial increase of damage against targets with high armor.
For players, this means “Yay sorcerers are super strong!” But this is only when using a weapon that is not working properly. If without using this weapon Sorcerers are weak, then there’s an overall problem with sorcerers. Ideally, we want to fix that overall problem with Sorcerers and not the items or mechanics perceived to be the issue. This is at the core of what we're trying to find in order to make the proper balance adjustments in the game.

Another example which will be addressed in the next patch is an issue with Aimed Shot. There’s a specific combination of Aimed Shot upgrades that inflated the maximum potential damage of Aimed Shot beyond what the ability is supposed to be balanced for. This allowed Aimed Shot in this specific configuration to deal almost 2x as much potential damage as other combinations, and this is aside from the upgrade benefits displayed. Due to the popularity of Aimed Shot, this causes the opposite effect as the Wildfire upgrade. From a player perspective, “Rogues deal too much damage!” when in effect there’s one ability of Rogues which is causing unintended and excessive damage to be dealt.

The balance of Arcane Legends starts at the base classes and their abilities, then expands out to their weapons/armor, and then to the procs. We want to make sure all balance issues are properly discovered and addressed, especially if they go all the way back to the base class and abilities. It’s from this point that we can maintain the balance of AL and have usefulness and purpose for all classes.

Please keep all weapon and skill related feedback coming, and know that changes we make may not be the end of changes to that weapon or class, but in other areas of the game that we identify as core to the overall balance. Arcane Legends should feel fun and balanced for all classes, that’s our goal!

*UPDATE*
Speaking with Carapace about the performance of Rogues and Aimed Shot, this is the path we're taking. All analysis is going on right now, I gathered stats from high end Rogues in game to use as examples. The previous combination that resulted in really spiky damage for Aimed Shot will be adjusted so that the High and Low aren't so drastically far apart. All other combinations of Aimed Shot will be buffed to be in line with this combination so there won't be the disparity.

I'll be more transparent about this after the analysis is complete and will show the stats gathered for players as well as how damage would be affected (without any player names).

-STSVroom

[Befs]

Sorcerers just didn't have that *POW* factor with their DoT and crowd killing capabilities, they just seemed to slowly wear down mobs, until along came the hex staffs, which provided us with actual powerful crowd killing ability, above that of tanks, or rogues. This made us useful in elites, especially the new underhul maps where the mob density is higher. I can't come up with any solutions to this at the time, but those are my feelings on the issue.

P.S. I didn't think we were op, we still needed other classes or we would die.

[Zeus]

Hey Arlorians,

I wanted to start a discussion with you all about balance adjustments. Whenever players bring up questions or feedback regarding items or abilities, we look into these items or mechanic in question. Sometimes we discover issues in the items or abilities that require further adjustments. While we understand that players have gotten used to the way this item or ability works, when it’s important for the overall balance of the game we have to make those adjustments.

When a weapon proc or ability is causing more damage than we intend, it not only throws off the balance of the game but it hides where balance problems are. One example I can give is the Wildfire proc. Recently I found the proc was ignoring the armor of enemies on the DoT, which should not happen. This meant a substantial increase of damage against targets with high armor.
For players, this means “Yay sorcerers are super strong!” But this is only when using a weapon that is not working properly. If without using this weapon Sorcerers are weak, then there’s an overall problem with sorcerers. Ideally, we want to fix that overall problem with Sorcerers and not the items or mechanics perceived to be the issue. This is at the core of what we're trying to find in order to make the proper balance adjustments in the game.

Another example which will be addressed in the next patch is an issue with Aimed Shot. There’s a specific combination of Aimed Shot upgrades that inflated the maximum potential damage of Aimed Shot beyond what the ability is supposed to be balanced for. This allowed Aimed Shot in this specific configuration to deal almost 2x as much potential damage as other combinations, and this is aside from the upgrade benefits displayed. Due to the popularity of Aimed Shot, this causes the opposite effect as the Wildfire upgrade. From a player perspective, “Rogues deal too much damage!” when in effect there’s one ability of Rogues which is causing unintended and excessive damage to be dealt.

The balance of Arcane Legends starts at the base classes and their abilities, then expands out to their weapons/armor, and then to the procs. We want to make sure all balance issues are properly discovered and addressed, especially if they go all the way back to the base class and abilities. It’s from this point that we can maintain the balance of AL and have usefulness and purpose for all classes.

Please keep all weapon and skill related feedback coming, and know that changes we make may not be the end of changes to that weapon or class, but in other areas of the game that we identify as core to the overall balance. Arcane Legends should feel fun and balanced for all classes, that’s our goal!

-STSVroom

If you are nerfing aimed shot, will we get our armor back? There isn't really a need for rogues otherwise. Also, when you do fix aimed shot, are records going to be wiped? If not, records are basically going to be untouched.

Additionally, 3 years of class balance have gone into balancing other classes against rogues. When this is implemented, it already makes the weakest class in PvP right now even more useless.

[Ireliaa]

wait aim is gone? this is...
man we already suck at pvp you want all rogues to leave game?

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Sorcerers just didn't have that *POW* factor with their DoT and crowd killing capabilities, they just seemed to slowly wear down mobs, until along came the hex staffs, which provided us with actual powerful crowd killing ability, above that of tanks, or rogues. This made us useful in elites, especially the new underhul maps where the mob density is higher. I can't come up with any solutions to this at the time, but those are my feelings on the issue.

P.S. I didn't think we were op, we still needed other classes or we would die.

This is exactly the type of feeling that actually hurts the balance of the game and we would like to get away from.
You're saying sorcerers didn't feel like they were performing well in AoE situations until a weapon came along that wasn't working correctly and was dealing more damage than intended. This should lead to feedback that there's a problem with the base kit of a Sorcerer and being able to deal AoE damage in comparison to other classes and their roles. That's the problem the design team would like to analyze and potentially address. Procs that aren't working as intended such as Wildfire hide this issue because Sorcerers feel great with this weapon.

If a class can't perform their intended role without the use of a specific weapon, that's a class issue, not a weapon issue!

[Eternyl]

If base stats and abilities are the heart of the issue, then offer a slight buff with every major nerf. I consider the wildfire nerf/fix to be a major one, and think it would be appropriate to adjust the weapon's DPS alongside fixing its proc. Just an idea. Making big swings just means taking longer to let the dust settle, which means slower itemization and progression.

[Saud]

Hahahahahaga
Thanks for fix aim shot
I think it was bugged too xD xD

[Tatman]

When will you stop buffing and nerfing stuff, pretending it's "fixing" or "balancing"?

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

wait aim is gone? this is...
man we already suck at pvp you want all rogues to leave game?

The effects you'll see from this adjustment will be if you were using that specific configuration of Aimed Shot, your minimum damage will be the exact same, but your maximum damage will be lower.

As stated in the initial post, this doesn't mean the end of Rogues and that nothing more will change. If after this adjustment we don't feel Rogues are performing their intended role, we'll address that issue in their kit. If the damage loss from Aimed Shot is essential to Rogues, the damage will be re-introduced elsewhere.

Again this was only in 1 specific configuration of Aimed Shot upgrades. If you weren't using this configuration you won't see a damage change. But those who were using this were currently dealing approximately 2x more damage than other Rogues.

[Ardbeg]

I don't want to comment on pvp but sts has done great this season with the map/mob design in pve. We're always running with a party of all classes in the new maps, because this is the most enjoyable way. And i highly appreciate it, if this balance is built into skills and not on singular weapon types, even if that means some hickups in the itemization curve. What we don't need is another season where the Rogue Arena is the most efficient way to farm. With rogues only. That being said, i don't mind rogues and mages having every amount of damage output, as long as they're the glass cannons they're supposed to be.

[Ireliaa]

ok its been 3.5 years and you see the aim shot doing too much damage now? this is the most unaccaptable most unbalanced update i have ever read, we cant take warr we barely take mage in pvp situation

now rogue can hunt rabbits let the superman warr rule the game let the pvp only for mage and warr and rogue is the unwanted class all that millions in jewels weapons gear pets pufffff.. gone

I have spent ridiculusl amounts of time to build my rogue and now im getting the news that "your class will be useless" how am i gonna react to this its like your dog is dead

[Zeus]

The effects you'll see from this adjustment will be if you were using that specific configuration of Aimed Shot, your minimum damage will be the exact same, but your maximum damage will be lower.

As stated in the initial post, this doesn't mean the end of Rogues and that nothing more will change. If after this adjustment we don't feel Rogues are performing their intended role, we'll address that issue in their kit. If the damage loss from Aimed Shot is essential to Rogues, the damage will be re-introduced elsewhere.

Again this was only in 1 specific configuration of Aimed Shot upgrades. If you weren't using this configuration you won't see a damage change. But those who were using this were currently dealing approximately 2x more damage than other Rogues.

Is that specific configuration 5/5 Aimed Shot? Every rogue in the game that is end game uses 5/5 Aimed Shot. As for post fix balancing, I hope it can be quick because quite frankly, I'm tired of being the class to get nerfed again and again throughout the year. There's truly not a need for rogues anywhere in PvP if there are tanks and mages present on the other side.

[extrapayah]

i see... several concern to be discussed is also:

1. overwhelming mana consumption of rogues, should have equal rate to other non-spellcaster class (tank), imo
2. some damage from rogues unable to have critical effect
3. rogue becoming more of a spellcaster than a mage, rather to reduce cooldown, increase effectiveness/base damage
4. mage lacking of party buffs
5. excessive hate/aggro from healing, even stronger than taunt effects
6. part of healing skill that is very low/very unsignificant in pve, getting nerfed by pvp global nerfs
7. unbalanced mastery, one can be very useful, the other totally useless, and as a side note, and still too expensive

[Jexetta]

Hey Arlorians,

Another example which will be addressed in the next patch is an issue with Aimed Shot. There’s a specific combination of Aimed Shot upgrades that inflated the maximum potential damage of Aimed Shot beyond what the ability is supposed to be balanced for. This allowed Aimed Shot in this specific configuration to deal almost 2x as much potential damage as other combinations, and this is aside from the upgrade benefits displayed. Due to the popularity of Aimed Shot, this causes the opposite effect as the Wildfire upgrade. From a player perspective, “Rogues deal too much damage!” when in effect there’s one ability of Rogues which is causing unintended and excessive damage to be dealt.

-STSVroom

So my device got fried so I haven't been able to play for awhile - And I come back to this? It's single target damage from an extremely squishy class.

On top of this, I also come back to the forum and read that the housing environments are going to apply damage based on how many you own, then that damage / hp, etc. will apply to skills in pve AND pvp maps???

Being able to push a series of button combinations in the most efficient manner and aim those appropriately at specific mobs / players is what makes this game fun and where skill as a player shows. If you're going to remove a rogue's bread and butter and then apply basically a pay for damage / survive-ability add on to the game... ok but I'm not really able to triangulate your reasoning in one regard then apply something so ridiculous in another. And it's not that I don't see the irony in my stance - of course there are several elixers / dolls etc to apply boosts - but we're just adding so many layers it's getting a bit out of control. #Arcane7layerlasagna

I was drag racing on the street yesterday. It was me in a Ford Pinto VS a McLaren F1. My friends where like... "Syl.. you can't be serious! You'll be destroyed!" I replied in confidence, "Don't worry Brah... I got an awesome tavern with like... lava in it - it adds 5 bajillion horsepower to my Ford Pinto"

All I have to say is you better wear armor to the forums if you're going to start talking about nerfing Aimed Shot. Things about to get cereal.

[greekAL]

rogues was useful only cause was damage dealers now rogues no need at game! that aint balance that how to rush each class one by one! first tanks with the broken jugger now tanks are ok and rogues will be useless! how about give rogues heal of tank or mage? they wont do tht much damage so need better survive skills!

[Zeus]

So my device got fried so I haven't been able to play for awhile - And I come back to this? It's single target damage from an extremely squishy class.

On top of this, I also come back to the forum and read that the housing environments are going to apply damage based on how many you own, then that damage / hp, etc. will apply to skills in pve AND pvp maps???

Being able to push a series of button combinations in the most efficient manner and aim those appropriately at specific mobs / players is what makes this game fun and where skill as a player shows. If you're going to remove a rogue's bread and butter and then apply basically a pay for damage / survive-ability add on to the game... ok but I'm not really able to triangulate your reasoning in one regard then apply something so ridiculous in another. And it's not that I don't see the irony in my stance - of course there are several elixers / dolls etc to apply boosts - but we're just adding so many layers it's getting a bit out of control. #Arcane7layerlasagna

I was drag racing on the street yesterday. It was me in a Ford Pinto VS a McLaren F1. My friends where like... "Syl.. you can't be serious! You'll be destroyed!" I replied in confidence, "Don't worry Brah... I got an awesome tavern with like... lava in it - it adds 5 bajillion horsepower to my Ford Pinto"

All I have to say is you better wear armor to the forums if you're going to start talking about nerfing Aimed Shot. Things about to get cereal.

It's all about the McLaren P1 nowadays. xD

[Jexetta]

As stated in the initial post, this doesn't mean the end of Rogues and that nothing more will change. If after this adjustment we don't feel Rogues are performing their intended role, we'll address that issue in their kit. If the damage loss from Aimed Shot is essential to Rogues, the damage will be re-introduced elsewhere.

Then I must ask - what is the point? So this scenario plays out?

1. You take away damage from skill "a"
2. People complain about the nerfing of skill "a" and your response is to say the damage was unintentional and somehow was never caught or didn't seem like the correct time to fix it after 3 years, till now.
3. As per the quote above now you will introduce an equivalent damage elsewhere. Perhaps this is adding more damage to each skill besides aimed, who knows.
4. Now, aren't we just back at the same point we were before, albeit in a confusing, meandering, totally pointless way?

I'm not a fortune teller, but I can tell you that you're going to meet some serious push back and if the fix is point #3 above isn't that just kinda wasting time and aggravating the customer base for no reason?

[Carapace]

From a different perspective what we're saying is that we've identified an issue with Aimed Shot that needed to be addressed for us to better make balance adjustments moving forward. There may be a noticeable difference for players and there might not depending on the use of this combination, if there IS a notable difference than we can re-add that damage in another area of Aim Shot, or the Rogue's overall kit in order to make up that difference and bring them where they should be. Currently this number was putting a lot of noise in the damage output of the Rogue in some cases and needed to be stabilized before we can make further adjustments.

Think of this as a precursor to potential Rogue improvements and enhancements, and not as a nerf because a nerf implies that we do not intend to bring it back up. Depending on the circumstances we will bring up the Rogue again where necessary. It certainly doesn't guarantee that we will, but it is a possibility

[Zeus]

From a different perspective what we're saying is that we've identified an issue with Aimed Shot that needed to be addressed for us to better make balance adjustments moving forward. There may be a noticeable difference for players and there might not depending on the use of this combination, if there IS a notable difference than we can re-add that damage in another area of Aim Shot, or the Rogue's overall kit in order to make up that difference and bring them where they should be. Currently this number was putting a lot of noise in the damage output of the Rogue in some cases and needed to be stabilized before we can make further adjustments.

Think of this as a precursor to potential Rogue improvements and enhancements, and not as a nerf because a nerf implies that we do not intend to bring it back up. Depending on the circumstances we will bring up the Rogue again where necessary. It certainly doesn't guarantee that we will, but it is a possibility

All existing balances were made while keeping in mind how hard rogue hits. Are you saying that developers are going to move the damage in another area of Aimed Shot so it hits just as hard as it did previously? We really cannot afford any more reductions in performance to this class. It has already been well established that rogues are no longer needed in PvP. Heck, we have warriors admitting it right here. I do realize the developer team has statistical data but they need to test what happens to a rogue against a warrior and mage team. Provided the warrior and mages know what they are doing, the rogues get simply annihilated. There's no strategy one can play to combat it.

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

All existing balances were made while keeping in mind how hard rogue hits. Are you saying that developers are going to move the damage in another area of Aimed Shot so it hits just as hard as it did previously? We really cannot afford any more reductions in performance to this class. It has already been well established that rogues are no longer needed in PvP. Heck, we have warriors admitting it right here. I do realize the developer team has statistical data but they need to test what happens to a rogue against a warrior and mage team. Provided the warrior and mages know what they are doing, the rogues get simply annihilated. There's no strategy one can play to combat it.

Consistency is the big factor here. Right now with Aimed Shot, you're punished by a large margin of damage for not taking a specific set of upgrades, and none of those upgrades says "Deal 2x more damage".

Some examples of the way this could be reworked, once the issue with Aimed Shot has been corrected (these are just things that could be done):
- All damage of Aimed Shot increases, no matter what upgrades you have, to balance out the old potential Maximum
- That large spike of maximum damage in Aimed Shot is moved to other abilities so that Rogue's aren't so reliant on only Aimed Shot
- Rogues become less glass cannon because they don't have the huge spike in damage
- Mastery for Aimed Shot is adjusted to also allow a damage increase

There's a lot that can be done, but is reliant on the ability being consistent and working as intended

To clarify, we are not saying "Rogues deal too much damage and need to be nerfed". We are saying "Aimed Shot is broken and this is affecting Rogues. We need to correct Aimed Shot and figure out how to adjust Rogues after the fact."