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  Click here to go to the first Dev post in this thread.   Thread: Hey Rogues, What's Missing???

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    Senior Member Niixed's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Hey Rogues, What's Missing???

    I've read through a majority of the complaints from Rogue players, but I still feel at a loss as to how exactly Rogue players think their characters should be performing. The numbers look good and the data seems to say that Rogues are balanced, yet so many players feel the absolute opposite of that.

    Two basic issues are at the forefront of most recent complaints.

    1) Rogues lack firepower

    2) Rogues die too easily

    If you believe STS does not understand, then help them (and me!) understand. Please give VERY SPECIFIC examples of how exactly you believe your Rogue character is failing to meet your expectations. Describe maps, situations, bosses, mobs, battles, skills, upgrades, specializations, character stats, time, level, etc. give as much detail as you can so it can be understood clearly.

    Note: Please, no dramatic declarations about how rogues are totally useless now and you're going to quit the game, etc!

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    Please try to keep this thread civil in regards to what Niixed is asking and it will be more useful for us to read through. Sometimes these types of threads become very A vs B, or class vs class and heated so from a developer standpoint I want to preemptively state that it's a lot more useful for us if the points are clear, examples are given, and the thread doesn't derail into something uncivil.

    Thanks!
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    JS i'm happy.

    If rogues are given anymore power, it becomes rogue legends again. I am completely happy from a rogues stand point.


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    the balance between pve and pvp won't be reached, because of extreme difference in potions spam
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    Okay so I tested rogue against a warrior and mage scenario and it still does not stand a chance. It was not my team either, considering that my team was compromised of the team that I use for tournaments. The strategies were solid, but nothing works to help a rogue live against a pure warrior and sorcerer team. Therefore, rogues are still an outcast in PvP unless there is a rogue on the other side.

    The spike damage which gave rogues a meager chance before is gone as well. So, we need some sort of adjustment. If developers could take a look what exactly happens to a rogue against a warrior and sorcerer stack...that would be great. Essentially, all the warriors and sorcerers have to do is shield and rush the other team with a rogue in it. There is nothing the rogue can do to win. The sorcerers cannot be slowed, due to the shields, and nobody dies during the rush either because of the multiple shields and multiple heals.
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    From a PVP standpoint, I think STS should retest the damage nerfs to find a more balanced nerf % now that rogues can't crit as high as they once did.
    \_(ツ)_/

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    Not bad at all i was using rogue in 47 for pvp sometimes and could 1shot a mage, i was only use arc dagger, underhul set, mythic belt, arc ring full fort mind, and pp full fort mind too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredystern View Post
    Not bad at all i was using rogue in 47 for pvp sometimes and could 1shot a mage, i was only use arc dagger, underhul set, mythic belt, arc ring full fort mind, and pp full fort mind too

    Yes in a 1v1 its fine, but if you try to fight a team consisting of warrior and Mages while your team has warriors, Mage's and rogues, then good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
    Yes in a 1v1 its fine, but if you try to fight a team consisting of warrior and Mages while your team has warriors, Mage's and rogues, then good luck.
    Yep you will die. NO hope NO chances NO way
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    I appreciate your starting the thread (giving STS an example?) but frankly after the recent uproar I have jaundiced opinion about forumers playing STS advocate/spokesperson especially since the situation is prone to inconsistency, with STS locking threads to consolidate feedback and the usual "stop crying, suck it up and move on" thread popping up.

    But to answer your question, I was happy with the rogue situation before the recent update. The new gears, especially the belt and weapons, are giving me hope that even if I'll never be able to acquire the Antignome set my survival and usefulness in elite Underhul, where I want to be able to run even more without breaking my bank for ankh cost, will improve.

    I haven't tested the update since I've yet to feel motivated to log on, but I'm impressed with the speed with which they implement their proposed solution for aimed shot. But in future I hope they consider this feedback on how to evaluate and tinker with the game with enough transparency up front to allay panic and confusion and without having to compromise player experience.

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    The damage rogues do is fine now but there is no way to survive against mage stack, even if your a maxed rogue its almost impossible, once horn bubble is out youre dead in just few seconds


    -Talking about clash

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    I think the problems with any class buff/nerf is this

    Sts hopes for the best from everyone and that just falls on its face..when you consider any nerf/buff you need to take into account the worst things that can happen ..cause let me tell you..... 5 seconds after it goes into affect people are trying to work out a way to exploit it to there advantage

    And this doesn't just go for the changes to rogues..it goes for any change ..if people can stack/farm/plot/scheme then they will ..just face it..its going to happen

    I think sts should take a hope for the best, plan for the worst attitude to any planned changes..

    Most of the players I know are really great people that will just work with what that have ...but some..oh some of them you give them a inch..that will take the whole yard stick..then hit you over the head with it

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    From the point of view of the PVE, I wanted skills that increase my survivability.

    This could be done through improvements in skills Trap and Shadow veil.

    In trap, snare significantly. Pets Ethyl and Titan make this work better. Even the event pets Slobber and Nilbog. The mastery of reducing the cooldown of 2 sec does not help much. The trap remains on the ground long enough to reload skill.

    In Shadow veil, improving armor gain. Because of the elixir of doll the party wins 15% armor. Giving only 5% armor by rogue Skill. The same goes for using a Nekro or pet that 15% of damage. The gain with damage is 3% or 0%. It might be better to put the armor gain as the mastery of life warrior. Winning with increasing level.

    A dev made a comment about the weapon proc make strong character, but he remains weak. In my opinion, what has kept alive rogues is the proc of arcane dagger and not your skills.


    ps. not to talking to nerf anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
    Yes in a 1v1 its fine, but if you try to fight a team consisting of warrior and Mages while your team has warriors, Mage's and rogues, then good luck.
    We won :3 but i didnt know the PvP conditon in 56 hehe, but as i saw from community seems like rogue was very rarely participate on a clash

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredystern View Post
    We won :3 but i didnt know the PvP conditon in 56 hehe, but as i saw from community seems like rogue was very rarely participate on a clash
    We're seeing tanks/mages/korruption stacks in end game nowadays, in all honesty is really hard to let a rogue partecipate if you want to win against this type of team-up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soon View Post
    From the point of view of the PVE, I wanted skills that increase my survivability.

    This could be done through improvements in skills Trap and Shadow veil.

    In trap, snare significantly. Pets Ethyl and Titan make this work better. Even the event pets Slobber and Nilbog. The mastery of reducing the cooldown of 2 sec does not help much. The trap remains on the ground long enough to reload skill.

    In Shadow veil, improving armor gain. Because of the elixir of doll the party wins 15% armor. Giving only 5% armor by rogue Skill. The same goes for using a Nekro or pet that 15% of damage. The gain with damage is 3% or 0%. It might be better to put the armor gain as the mastery of life warrior. Winning with increasing level.

    A dev made a comment about the weapon proc make strong character, but he remains weak. In my opinion, what has kept alive rogues is the proc of arcane dagger and not your skills.


    ps. not to talking to nerf anything.
    Yes everything now is all about how much you can proc your weapon.

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    I think if rogues are given more survivability, it might be a fair fight against other class.

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    I have no issues with the rogue as it is in PvE. With the Aimed Shot re-adjusted to around its original power, I can resume my role as a single target DPS fairly well again.

    In PvP, 1v1 I'm really lousy at, but I do tend to win vs mages more than I do vs tanks. I will skip the discussion about 1v1 vs a tank at endgame. For a team vs team clash, previous posters brought up the lack of viability of including rogues in clashes, especially if the opposing team is filled with mages and tanks. Why is that?

    - rogues cannot overcome a tank stack: rogues do not have a shield that provides invulnerability or a skill that markedly reduces incoming damage. This means that with more mages and tanks on the opposing side, there are less targets with a wide open window of vulnerability

    - It is difficult to kill a tank quickly in a clash, no matter what other people may say. With Nekro/Jugg/HoR/feeble there is a very small window where your skills can hit hard enough to bring a tank down. With increasing numbers of tanks in the team the window gets even small because the tanks can cover each other well with enough skill and practice. Rogues cannot overcome this, and will eventually die because they run out of mana or get sucked into multiple axes. And I haven't even talked about the lava proc of the Arc sword.

    - Mages can partially counter a tank stack because they have two things: mana heal and a shield that provides invulnerability and potentially absorbs a lot of damage. This also means that they have a small window of weakness, though during this window they are extremely vulnerable and will die very easily. They also have Fireball which on good timing can stun a tank and widen the window of vulnerability of a tank enough to nuke him and bring him down.

    In order to bring back the rogue as a relevant member of the party, there must be either an incentive for more rogues to play, or there must be a disincentive for class stacking in teams. There is no incentive for more than one rogue per team at the moment because apart from high damage (which is nowadays easily countered by Jugg/Mage shield/Horn of Renew/feeble skills), rogues bring little else to the table. Buffing rogues in order to provide an incentive would be a huge mistake as it would unbalance PvE which as I have stated above is in a happy equilibrium currently.

    So the best option would be disincentivizing stacking of multiple toons of a single class in a team. How would this work? My proposal involves weakening of a specific stat associated with the specific class, if there is more than one toon of that class in a team. I could give examples. For instance:
    - more than one rogue in team: crit reduction by 5% per teammate for each additional rogue in the team.
    - more than one mage in team: damage reduction of 5% for each additional mage in the team
    - more than one tank in team: armor reduction of 5% for each member of the team

    Note that these are examples. I have no way of telling you if a 5% damage reduction is as disabling as a 5% armor reduction. However, my idea was to take the most prominent stat of a stackable class, and nerf it across the team such that the entire team would suffer because they chose to stack tanks/mages/rogues. For instance, since tank stacks are notoriously hard to bring down, nerfing the armor of the team would make the whole team die a lot faster and discourage the idea of tank stacking to preserve the team's armor.

    This is just one idea I have, and I'm sure it's not perfect, nor will it be universally received. I would like to hear your views as well as alternative suggestions as to how to reduce class stacking in PvP and making it more friendly to rogues.
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    IMO, the very concept of rogues is to be stronger in vs and weak in clashes, and I'm pretty sure if we give rogues a way to become invulnerable, or hard to take down, rogues will literally become impeccable, I mean each class has its own role to fufill, and a rogue's role is to take down an enemy in a short period, also, I'm pretty sure the thing that's hindering balance these days is the Dragon hunter's sword proc, which made the warrior class an impossible wall to overcome for any other class.
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    If we could get a weapon that doesnt need to attack mobs/players to proc

    That elondrian gun l41 did shield by only spamming normal attack, or ghoulish daggs gave us some kind of shield without need to attack the mob/player

    So If future weapons had some kind of non attack just spamming auto attack proc, would be helpful imo..

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