Hey Rogues, What's Missing???

[soon]

This is from pve perspective...
I am not a very op rogue but i feel in tougher elites(underhul 2 and 3) I am useless wo the proc of the arcane sword ..If the arcane sword does not proc I m dead
Nothing with skill...its solely the proc ,,any of my skill cannot stun the mobs
As I said I may be wrong and if I am the only one feeling like this then please ignore the next part
But if majority feels the same then truly brainstorming needs to me done how to get out from the proc dependability...
Unless there is a true way of survival (for rogue even if for a short period of time to deal the expected damage) based on your stats and your skill wo the help of proc..dont think any class balance can ever be reached ...procs should be there to help like the good old frost bow or elon bow...or even the glintstone bows...but should not be so powerful that my entire survivability depends on it...

That's what I was talking about pve. I will not use the lv 46 arcana dagger forever. Exists a lv 56, now. Rogues below 46 can not use too. The proc dagger become my shield skill.

[Ireliaa]

Ok from what I'm reading:

1) Overall, Rogue players feel very strongly that Rogues are performing poorly in PvP.

• Rogues have no way of consistently overcoming the strengths of the other classes, regardless of the strategy employed
• Rogues no longer excell in 1v1 battles.
• Rogues are less useful in larger PvP battles
• Rogues are finding themselves significantly less valued as members of a PvP team
• The fun factor of playing a Rogue has taken a serious hit.

2) Overall, Rogue players feel PvE survivability could be modestly improved

Am I accurate on this, or am I missing something else?

yes you are right on the spot

[Lunarpvp]

Ok from what I'm reading:

1) Overall, Rogue players feel very strongly that Rogues are performing poorly in PvP.

• Rogues have no way of consistently overcoming the strengths of the other classes, regardless of the strategy employed
• Rogues no longer excell in 1v1 battles.
• Rogues are less useful in larger PvP battles
• Rogues are finding themselves significantly less valued as members of a PvP team
• The fun factor of playing a Rogue has taken a serious hit.

2) Overall, Rogue players feel PvE survivability could be modestly improved.

Am I accurate on this, or am I missing something else?

Yep, fix the Rogues.

[Avaree]

Ok from what I'm reading:

1) Overall, Rogue players feel very strongly that Rogues are performing poorly in PvP.

• Rogues have no way of consistently overcoming the strengths of the other classes, regardless of the strategy employed
• Rogues no longer excell in 1v1 battles.
• Rogues are less useful in larger PvP battles
• Rogues are finding themselves significantly less valued as members of a PvP team
• The fun factor of playing a Rogue has taken a serious hit.

2) Overall, Rogue players feel PvE survivability could be modestly improved.

Am I accurate on this, or am I missing something else?

I would like shadow veil's upgrades, shadow absorbtion & masked presence to work properly with all pets. This would improve survivability not only for the rogue using this skill, but also the party mates' survivability.

[JesuisCharlie]

I don't play mainly the rogue but im surprise to see peoples write about the Smoke grenade..its my big regret on rogue actually!
This skill is probably one of the less play of the game but when you look the skills buffs seem crazy and its good either with bow or daggers and allow a better teamplay.

To me ( with my humble feeling), first, the POSITION OF THE GRENADE is to much RANDOM and to hard to launch properly unless sometimes the area is just.. random.
And second, the COOLDOWN between the cast of the skill and his ACTIVATION, all combined with the duration of 11seconds.
This skill was almost always play first season and even after, its why i chosed to play rogue but actually it seem a little "EXPIRED" regarding the NEW and deeper GAMEPLAY
For example, try to use it on glinstone, you will die before the explosion of the grenade , another example is on kraken mines, its almost impossible to catch gunners with it. So in pvp it should be terrible lol.

In addition,
If you count the cooldown, the random area and the time to enter on the area (either minions and team mates) the skill isnt that good.
I would like to see a rogue aim it properly and it explod on impact, the best will be if its distance depend with the time we charged it With like a "short mod" and "rang mod (charged)" working like the SORCERER WINDMIL
thanks for reading.
Let me know what do you think

[Kingofninjas]

Ok from what I'm reading:

1) Overall, Rogue players feel very strongly that Rogues are performing poorly in PvP.

• Rogues have no way of consistently overcoming the strengths of the other classes, regardless of the strategy employed
• Rogues no longer excell in 1v1 battles.
• Rogues are less useful in larger PvP battles
• Rogues are finding themselves significantly less valued as members of a PvP team
• The fun factor of playing a Rogue has taken a serious hit.

2) Overall, Rogue players feel PvE survivability could be modestly improved.

Am I accurate on this, or am I missing something else?

You.are right except about the 1 vs 1 battles. Currently it's a rock paper scissors scenario. Tanks eat rogues, rogues eat mages and mages eat tanks. I think this is as close to ideal as it will get.

[Kickxxxass]

[QUOTE=Zeus;2534826]Okay so I tested rogue against a warrior and mage scenario and it still does not stand a chance. It was not my team either, considering that my team was compromised of the team that I use for tournaments. The strategies were solid, but nothing works to help a rogue live against a pure warrior and sorcerer team. Therefore, rogues are still an outcast in PvP unless there is a rogue on the other side.

The spike damage which gave rogues a meager chance before is gone as well. So, we need some sort of adjustment

I have no issues with the rogue as it is in PvE. With the Aimed Shot re-adjusted to around its original power, I can resume my role as a single target DPS fairly well again.

In PvP, 1v1 I'm really lousy at, but I do tend to win vs mages more than I do vs tanks. I will skip the discussion about 1v1 vs a tank at endgame. For a team vs team clash, previous posters brought up the lack of viability of including rogues in clashes, especially if the opposing team is filled with mages and tanks. Why is that?

- rogues cannot overcome a tank stack: rogues do not have a shield that provides invulnerability or a skill that markedly reduces incoming damage. This means that with more mages and tanks on the opposing side, there are less targets with a wide open window of vulnerability

- It is difficult to kill a tank quickly in a clash, no matter what other people may say. With Nekro/Jugg/HoR/feeble there is a very small window where your skills can hit hard enough to bring a tank down. With increasing numbers of tanks in the team the window gets even small because the tanks can cover each other well with enough skill and practice. Rogues cannot overcome this, and will eventually die because they run out of mana or get sucked into multiple axes. And I haven't even talked about the lava proc of the Arc sword.

- Mages can partially counter a tank stack because they have two things: mana heal and a shield that provides invulnerability and potentially absorbs a lot of damage. This also means that they have a small window of weakness, though during this window they are extremely vulnerable and will die very easily. They also have Fireball which on good timing can stun a tank and widen the window of vulnerability of a tank enough to nuke him and bring him down.

In order to bring back the rogue as a relevant member of the party, there must be either an incentive for more rogues to play, or there must be a disincentive for class stacking in teams. There is no incentive for more than one rogue per team at the moment because apart from high damage (which is nowadays easily countered by Jugg/Mage shield/Horn of Renew/feeble skills), rogues bring little else to the table. Buffing rogues in order to provide an incentive would be a huge mistake as it would unbalance PvE which as I have stated above is in a happy equilibrium currently.

So the best option would be disincentivizing stacking of multiple toons of a single class in a team. How would this work? My proposal involves weakening of a specific stat associated with the specific class, if there is more than one toon of that class in a team. I could give examples. For instance:
- more than one rogue in team: crit reduction by 5% per teammate for each additional rogue in the team.
- more than one mage in team: damage reduction of 5% for each additional mage in the team
- more than one tank in team: armor reduction of 5% for each member of the team

Note that these are examples. I have no way of telling you if a 5% damage reduction is as disabling as a 5% armor reduction. However, my idea was to take the most prominent stat of a stackable class, and nerf it across the team such that the entire team would suffer because they chose to stack tanks/mages/rogues. For instance, since tank stacks are notoriously hard to bring down, nerfing the armor of the team would make the whole team die a lot faster and discourage the idea of tank stacking to preserve the team's armor.

This is just one idea I have, and I'm sure it's not perfect, nor will it be universally received. I would like to hear your views as well as alternative suggestions as to how to reduce class stacking in PvP and making it more friendly to rogues.

What ^ safiras said are great points but if STS can't do that there is an another way to fix this problem why not just make the stats of PVE and PVP different for rouge and other chars

And if rouges are happy with their pve power just gives routes a buff in pve in armor or damage reduction of thing of that sort this might work so it makes it that rouges are balanced making them happy

[Tapash Bose]

There might be some people who perceive the change as detrimental, but it is in no way justifiable with such an angry and insulting reaction. Im tired of all this toxicity that surmises with these kinds of situations.

Humans are genetically related to monkeys, which basically make them primitive humans. The conformist and brainwashed behavior that we naturally share today are entwined deep within our genes that go as far back as the monkeys. It's an instinct. Monkeys are actually really behaviorally intelligent.

There are some people who base their assumptions on personal experiments, then there are people who base their assumptions on numbers, and then there are people who base their assumptions on the feedback generated from other people because they are led to believe that there is an issue. Basically, we have leaders and we have followers. Its reality.

Again, this toxic behavior and hostility is downright ridiculus and blown out of proportion. This hype is bigger than the actual issue.

1.well human beings are genetically linked to monkeys but in case you forgot..there are generations and stages of evolution involved in between ...and just to remind...brain also evolved .. So some of us has the right to feel insulted... anyways i m ignoring it as the ability to respect others is a virtue embedded in the gene..and not all individuals are born with the quality

2. Whether the change is not detrimental and the reaction is overblown is something let the devs/management take the decision. Like the same way u are expressing your opinion that the reaction is overblown from your perspective ...similarly another individual has the right to express the opposite weapon.We think we are in a democracy arent we ? OOh yes..thats another thing that separates human beings from monkeys...

3. I had witnessed a lot of obscene pleasure when rogue armor was nerfed...
But surprisingly all this intelligence and philosophy was missing when another class was asking for a buff in their powers for the last 2 years...saying they were unwanted in pve
Let me point out if you havent noticed not a single rogue spoke against that ..we dont really want anybody being nerfed.. ...its bad for the overall health of the game...

And as a class we share the philosophy that the way to excel is to make your line longer.....greatness achieved by reducing others is not something we particularly relish on and consider honorable

4. If some of the reactions are strong..let the STS handle it if it was justified or not.Why some of us are grabbing this opportunity to pose themselves as leader ?
There is no shortcut to Leadership as is it again a virtue embedded and inborn...and we are certainly not monkeys who can decide our leaders by fighting and biting

[Zylx]

1.well human beings are genetically linked to monkeys but in case you forgot..there are generations and stages of evolution involved in between ...and just to remind...brain also evolved .. So some of us has the right to feel insulted... anyways i m ignoring it as the ability to respect others is a virtue embedded in the gene..and not all individuals are born with the quality

I dont believe you read my post correctly. I said that monkeys are basically primitive humans. Their instinctive behaviors reflect on our own. I never said humans were as intelligent as monkeys. We just share common behaviors. This is in no way an insult or any means of disrespect... lol.

2. Whether the change is not detrimental and the reaction is overblown is something let the devs/management take the decision. Like the same way u are expressing your opinion that the reaction is overblown from your perspective ...similarly another individual has the right to express the opposite weapon.We think we are in a democracy arent we ? OOh yes..thats another thing that separates human beings from monkeys...

Again, you probably either didn't read my post, or you likely don't understand anything about psychology or the difference between right and wrong. Getting angry over a video game is really pointless. Throwing insults and using aggression as well is even more ridiculous. There are many different ways of conveying feedback without resorting to this kind of behavior.

3. I had witnessed a lot of obscene pleasure when rogue armor was nerfed...
But surprisingly all this intelligence and philosophy was missing when another class was asking for a buff in their powers for the last 2 years...saying they were unwanted in pve
Let me point out if you havent noticed not a single rogue spoke against that ..we dont really want anybody being nerfed.. ...its bad for the overall health of the game...

And as a class we share the philosophy that the way to excel is to make your line longer.....greatness achieved by reducing others is not something we particularly relish on and consider honorable

Another pointless topic. Why worry about the past? Why does a period of attitude from years ago matter today? And again, why should i care?

4. If some of the reactions are strong..let the STS handle it if it was justified or not.Why some of us are grabbing this opportunity to pose themselves as leader ?
There is no shortcut to Leadership as is it again a virtue embedded and inborn...and we are certainly not monkeys who can decide our leaders by fighting and biting

It looks like you took your 2nd point, reworded it, and spit it out as your 4th. So again, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to determine that the hostility and aggression over something this petty is unnecessary.

My responses to your sarcastic replies are bolded above

[Kriticality]

Rogues are fine in pve. Still the rulers. I also don't think rogue survivability is the issue in pvp. It's the lack of damage. You should have a think twice approach before rushing a rogue if not in invulnerability. It's mages and tanks job to block rushes to rogue during other mages 2 sec invuln and players should be punished for reckless rushes and failed attempts. I think you can dismiss kdr and try giving rogues 75% of their damage at end game scaling for lower levels as opposed to 50% like the rest of us. We have so much healing and defenses at end game that it is manageable. Ofc it doesn't have to be 75% but some number higher than 50%. More armor will NOT help them in pvp honestly. Two or three mages can just storm the glass chica and she's gone. The rogue needs to be scarier and deadlier. I'll rush any rogue even solo most of the time. I shouldn't feel ok with this I don't think. They aren't scary anymore. If a rogue can isolate anyone off jugg or 2 sec invul it should be a very scary spot. Just my opinion though.


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[Safiras]

Rogues are fine in pve. Still the rulers. I also don't think rogue survivability is the issue in pvp. It's the lack of damage. You should have a think twice approach before rushing a rogue if not in invulnerability. It's mages and tanks job to block rushes to rogue during other mages 2 sec invuln and players should be punished for reckless rushes and failed attempts. I think you can dismiss kdr and try giving rogues 75% of their damage at end game scaling for lower levels as opposed to 50% like the rest of us. We have so much healing and defenses at end game that it is manageable. Ofc it doesn't have to be 75% but some number higher than 50%. More armor will NOT help them in pvp honestly. Two or three mages can just storm the glass chica and she's gone. The rogue needs to be scarier and deadlier. I'll rush any rogue even solo most of the time. I shouldn't feel ok with this I don't think. They aren't scary anymore. If a rogue can isolate anyone off jugg or 2 sec invul it should be a very scary spot. Just my opinion though.


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This is an interesting perspective and one I wouldn't mind testing out. However, outside of a proper clash game you would likely have mages crying about getting one-comboed through shield and rogues killing other rogues in one combo. I'm not sure if this is the best fix... but like I said, worth a try.

[Kriticality]

This is an interesting perspective and one I wouldn't mind testing out. However, outside of a proper clash game you would likely have mages crying about getting one-comboed through shield and rogues killing other rogues in one combo. I'm not sure if this is the best fix... but like I said, worth a try.

I think it must have to do with damage only. From another thread. And as I said it doesn't have to be 75%. But enough to make people think twice.




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[Zeus]

I havent loved much this expansion but mages are out there, still complaining about how rogues can break shield easily.

Providing more damage to rogues will only reinstate rogues to the alpha PvP class position.

The role of rogues is to do damage - if they aren't doing that and if heals can outheal the damage, then there's no point of a rogue. Also, sorcerer isn't weak in any way or form. Gear for gear, an equal sorcerer will completely replace a rogue.

Sure, there are sorcerers that may still complain but either they are just not good or do not have the gear for the task.

[Kingofninjas]

I havent loved much this expansion but mages are out there, still complaining about how rogues can break shield easily.

Providing more damage to rogues will only reinstate rogues to the alpha PvP class position.

Shield should not be breaking. If it does break, then there is something wrong with the sorcerers gear. I will die before my shield breaks, and I am not overly geared. I don't use shield mastery either.

[faychen]

In Elite Southern Gate moment ago..


I'm not complaining :-)
I enjoy random party though.


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[Zeus]

Pretty sure that's only for clash situation.

In a 1v1 situation as soon as a rogues damage is buffed the R/P/S situation will become non existent. Probably even make the mages to the role they were before mana-slaves for the other two classes.



Shield almost always broke in 41-46 expansion for me, I was maybe slightly undergeared(for pvp) but even then it shouldn't have been breaking so easily. this expansion I do think mages fare better when it comes to PvP, providing a damage buff to rogues will make sure mages become the favourite class to pick on again. Even though I have no interest in PvP right now, I don't want to start PvPing only to realise my class is back to the bad old days(36-41 cap were a joke).

I guess I'll have a chat with the mages in merch chats and get back to you about the gear.

Gear for gear, mage shield should not break and actually should last a considerable amount of time. I know you haven't PvPed in a while, but please take that into consideration...these sorcerers that are putting their thoughts PvP every day and some are not even maxed (KingofNinjas).

[Ireliaa]

so overall the suggestions on multiple threads as i read was;

+Increasing the damage of rogue in pvp clash environment
or nerf of damage if class stacking occurs on stackers
or reducing the damage of mage or warr or both while rogue stays same to eliminate one shot kill vs fights
or reduce the suvivability of other 2 class when they combine or stack where there is no vindow of atacking

some more suggestion can come from devs
so a test server where this suggestions can be tested or kdrless pvp for a while to take data can solve this, after then we can move on maybe better adjustments, its hard to theroise without actual real data

[Sasamon]

I keep dying in Planar Tombs with 1 hit.