Why Force Shield and Protection are a waste of points

[IBNobody]

NOTE: This reflects the current state of the game on 09/04/11.

Thanks to Kamakazees' report on Armor properties, I wanted to share my thoughts on Protection and Force Shield.

*** Protection adds +10/+20/+30/+40/+50/+60 armor to the whole party for 2 minutes. Rank 6 equates to ~1-2 damage points reduced per hit.

The armor amount does not scale with level, so at 20+, you barely notice the damage reduction. The only beneficial effect Protection has is a placebo effect on people who don't know how armor works. If you don't cast it, people may get angry with you or think you are an incompetent player.

*** Force Shield adds +20/+40/+60/+80/+100/+120 armor and +1 regen to your character for 30s, has a 45s cooldown, costs 10 Energy. The shield only works for the first 25/35/45/55/65/75 damage your character takes. Rank 6 equates to ~2-3 damage points reduced per hit. With Protection, that equates to ~3-4 damage points per hit.

Again, the armor amount does not scale with level, so at 20+, you barely notice the damage reduction. What's worse is that Force Shield only lasts for up to 65 damage. That's NOT damage blocked, but total damage. At level 20+ on Numa Prime, that can equate to 2-3 attacks. So best case, you only get ~6-9 damage points blocked for spending 6 skill points.

Force Shield's only redeeming quality is that it also provides +1 energy regen (or +2 energy regen at rank 4). This means you get 1 (or 2) extra energy point every 1 second tick. Since the skill costs 10 energy, it takes the skill 10s (or 5s) to recoup the energy cost. That leaves 20s (25s), or 20 (25) ticks of extra energy. End result: You spend 10 energy and get back 30 (60), for a net gain of 20 (50). This equates to an ideal effective energy recovery rate of 0.44e/s (1.11e/s)

That energy isn't guaranteed, though. If you get hit and lose your shield, you lose out on the potential energy. In these situations, you're better off just guzzling an energy potion.

It may make more sense to invest in Leech for personal protection. Leech says it lasts for 3x 2s ticks (but I've counted 4x 2s ticks). The advantage of Leech, though, is that it scales with your weapon damage. Even if only one rank 1 leech tick fires off, I was seeing +15 health recovered on my lv. 23 Engineer. That's more than the ~6-9 damage that a rank 6 force shield gave me.

If you are considering putting points into Force Shield for better energy returns, don't max the skill out! Consider either stopping at 1 (to get the base recovery) or stopping at 4 (for the 2 energy per second) and then investing 2 extra points in Revive. Revive provides a hidden 1 energy per second recovery rate buff for 60s. Bringing Revive to rank 3 reduces its cost to 10 energy and thus, increases its effective recovery from 0.67e/s to 0.83e/s.

Keep in mind, though, that these energy gains are short-term. The skill costs remain constant across ranks, but your recovery rate and your maximum energy pool will increase. According to Bronislav, you get an extra energy recovery point every 143 INT. That means with gear that provides INT, you're likely to see an extra point around levels 20-25 and 30-35 (assuming gear scales up linearly). You'll also be likely to find implants or armor pieces that add energy recovery directly. As the game expands, these gains might outpace the recovery benefits of Force Shield.


---

In summary, skills that provide a fixed bonus risk becoming obsolete with level. They do not track with the player. A better solution for these skills would be to make them increase by percentages. And for Force shield, eliminating the durability factor would make it more useful and reliable.

Regardless, in their current form, you get more bang-for-the-buck by putting points in other skills.

[BodMaster]

Come to the same conclusion so when i was able to re-spec these had to go.. now I still have some players moan when I tell them I dnt have protection or shield.. (if your a engi you no matter support or dmg.. you need at least one point in rev)but oh well b00ns will be b00ns afterall no matter what level if they dont take the time to work out the mechanics of a game like this they will just go by what sound the best.. xD

[Redbridge]

Interesting. So if I'm playing a full support engie and Leech is already at 6 where would you suggest I spend these points? my skill build is

0-1-6-1
3-0-6-6
1-0-0-0

This means if what ur saying is right I'm wasting 9 skill points. WOW.

Would you actually suggest leaving one in Protection for 'placebo' effect or would you suggest risking the multiple discussions that will ensue to reeducate players, like me...lol

Thanks for pointing this out. May need to RESPEC once I come back from PL update.

[noneo]

Red,

I am in the same situation as you as far as not know what exactly to do with my skills.

I believe this to be my new optimal build (given the new community information on how armor works).

0-5-6-1
6-0-0-6
1-0-0-0

I'll start from the top left;

Wither - I don't see a real benefit of this untill PVP comes out. You can get similar damage with Leech with the addition of a nice heal.
Leech - I put this skill high due to the fact that while doing some Numa runs, there have been many close-calls which this skill can help you get through. It does a decent amount of damage, but more importantly - it gives you a heal. This combined with empathy, and transference will give you much-o healing.
Empahy - You need this maxed, period.
Revive - another necessary skill
Force Shield - This is one that I personally feel strongly toward, but many others do not. This skill gives you a whopping 2 M/S which can come in very handy when being frugal with your powerpacks. I find it is most effective in two situations; When running between groups of mobs (i.e. right after you exit combat, cast it, and by the time you get to the other group you should have a nice boost in mana. (also, cast this in addition to revive for even faster regen). And the other situation is when you are in a boss fight - but do not have aggro. That last statement is crucial. If you cast this with aggro, it will dissapear in a second or two (as it only deters 75 damage). However, if you cast with out having aggro, you will usually allow the skill to last the entire 30 seconds, or at least most of that time.) This skill offers double armor - which can help you get through that uneventful mega-hit from a strong mob as well.
Suppression - I personally like Pain more, as it lasts through damage. But this skill is nice because it can stop a whole group of mobs in their tracks. I chose pain over this.
Protection - You guys pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one, pretty useless (also, see my response from another thread below this for my thoughts).
Transference - Another main healing and damage skill (AOE)
Pain - to me, a necessary skill. It stops any 1 mob in its tracks and allows the whole team to destroy it without anyone taking damge. (good to cast when you are waiting for other skills to regen)

This is my response to another thread asking if Protection was usefull or not, I'll post it here if anyone is interested.

This is something that I am on the fence about and not sure which way to go. Originally, Protection offered a group stacking buff and could pump up your armor a few hundred points. But now, since we know that armor vs. damage in SL is not a 1:1 ratio, things got messy. It is estimated (I have not done any actual testing, but this is based off of what I heard on the forums) that 35 - 50 points of armor reduce your taken damage by 1 point. When the buffs stacked, that meant you could reduce damage by around 6 points. This may not seem like a lot, but think about yourself walking into a group of mobs all doing damage on you; you were essentially reducing your damage intake by 6*(8 or 10 mobs) = 50 - 60 points every time they hit you. However, with the removal of the stacking ability, protection can now impose a maximum of 60 armor points, which gives us a reduction of 1.5 damage taken (maximum). Do the same calculation and we see 1.5*(8 or 10 mobs) = 12 points every time you get hit by the group of mobs. So this definitely does add up in a mufti-combat scenario, but realistically, I can't see this amount of damage being a "make-or-break" amount. Alternatively, when you are facing a boss such as Guardian, this buff does basically nothing. Sure it reduces your damage intake by a bunch of 1.5's but your Engineer in the group will be casting Transference and Empathy non-stop anyway and will cover this damage.

Additionally, it doesn't really make sense to only put a few points in Protection as that would do virtually nothing in combat (i.e. 3 points damage reduction is barely even noticeable in a multi-combat situation).

With that said, you should think, "are their any other skills I would like to invest these points in"? If not, then put them in Protection, if so, weigh the pros and cons and choose from there.

I sense that the skills being contemplated here are Protection and Force Shield. If that is the case, let us discuss Force Shield. This skill gives you a "shield" (that doesn't actually protect you), of which offers up to 120 armor and a +2 M/S increase. The bad portion of this skill is that the shield doesn't last AT ALL in combat (unless you have no aggro from any mob, which rarely happens because Engineers are aggro stealers). Sure the added armor would help, but if the shield goes down from being hit too much, your armor dissapears. The only real thing I use this for when running between groups of mobs, and for boss fights. When running, I only cast to build up some more Mana before the next fight, as this does reduce my powerpack usage slightly. And with boss fights, I will only cast if I do not have the aggro and want to utilize the +2 M/S. If you have aggro, this skill is a total waste, it will last for, let's say 2 seconds; Wow! You gained a massive 4 mana! i.e. a waste.

The only other skills I may invest in with these points would be Wither or Leech, and more preferably Leech. Leech would at least do a decent amount of damage to a boss in a fight (pretty pointless in multi-combat), and give you some healing in a pinch. Or, if the devs decide to reduce the cool-down of Sonic Boom (since no one uses it now), I would invest them in that skill to give me a good AOE boost.

Oh how I dream of the day where the Engineer get a buff that is actually worth while, like dodge, or a damage buff.

[GigaBits]

Solid info, absolutely worth thinking about. Two corrections though. At max level force shield takes 75 damage and at max level it returns +2 energy. You get the +2 at rank 5, IIRC.

IMO, the damage difference doesn't really change anything but the +2 energy means it only takes 5 seconds to return energy and you can get 60 energy back if it lasts full duration.
EDIT: changed 30 to 60 energy, thanks for pointing out my mistake noneo. I also incorrectly reported the rank at which mana changes to +2. It is 4 not 5

[noneo]

and you can get 30 energy back if it lasts full duration.

This is actually 60 Mana if it lasts it's full duration.

[GigaBits]

Lol, i just read your other post in this thread noneo, u basically said everything I was thinking, only better . Not that anyone is interested but here is my build
0-0-6-1
6-4-0-6
1-0-0-0

I haven't got to 26 yet and I'm unsure where that point will go. I've chosen 4 in suppression for max number of mobs stunned and 1 in pain because the damage increase doesn't matter to me. To me this build has been more engaging and fun in groups.

[Register]

Neat info! Im def. changing up how im levleing my engineer now. At first I thought the first post would be some crappy random post from a clueless and rude player....I thought wrong! very well written!

+1 for well written...ness!
+1 for seperating points!
-1/2 for not having a summary

Just sayin.....a summary woulda been cool....Trololol

[IBNobody]

Ahh, Force Shield goes from +1 to +2 Energy at rank 5? Noneo, if that's true, you may want to update your guide.

----

I've switched from a protection build to:
1x Wither
4x Leech
6x Empathy
3x Suppression
1x Revive
6x Transference
1x Pain

My next 3 points going to max out Leech and then to Wither.

I put a point into wither because it's not that bad of a skill. It does as much damage per tick as Leech, lasts longer, and recharges faster. Against long boss battles such as the Guardian, any little bit of DOT helps.

[IBNobody]

Neat info! Im def. changing up how im levleing my engineer now. At first I thought the first post would be some crappy random post from a clueless and rude player....I thought wrong! very well written!

+1 for well written...ness!
+1 for seperating points!
-1/2 for not having a summary

Just sayin.....a summary woulda been cool....Trololol

Fixed. Thanks for your feedback. I'll also try to be more clueless and rude in the future! LOL

[shannong]

Protection is currently worthless, agreed. But I strongly disagree with dropping Force Shield too. Force Shield is indeed worthless for the armor component, but it is PRICELESS for the +2 power regen at 5 skill points. Between this skill, Revive's hidden +1 regen bonus, and the +1 regen plat implat, I have +4 power regen working for me full time.

Let me put it this way: I have done a LOT of guardian runs on my engy now. I never, ever use a single power pot. Never. And I never drop below 80 percent power for most of the run, and never drop lower than 30 percent power on Guardian himself. Usually I'm more at 50 percent power by the time we kill him. And I constantly spam Empathy, Transferrence, and Pain immediately on cool down in every single fight. I never have to pace my skill usage to conserve power. Can you say the same?

Without the nearly constant +2 from Force Shield, what I do would be impossible, and I'd be less useful for healing and AOE damage support to my teams. I'd have to burn at least 5-10 power pots per guardian run, if not more, to pay for the amount of useful skill spam for every fight.

[IBNobody]

I understand where you are coming from, but consider this. You've spent 5 skill points on a skill that only outputs energy 25s out of 45s (5s to recoup the cost + 25s of production + 15s cooldown). That's an effective recovery rate of 1.11 energy per tick (25/45 * 2).

Is spending 5 skill points worth, at best, 1.11 energy per second?

In your case, maybe there's an alternative? Spend 1 skill point on FS and dump 3 into revive?

If Revive's hidden buff lasts 1 minute and costs 20 energy, you need to spend 20s to recover the cost. That gives you 40s, or 40 ticks of energy recovery every minute from Revive. That translates to a recovery rate of 0.67 energy per tick. If you pump 2 extra skill points into revive (3 total), you only spend 10s recovering the cost and 50s of energy generation. That translates to 0.83 energy per tick.

5 FS + 1 Revive = 1.78 energy per tick
1 FS + 3 Revive = 1.27 energy per tick, + 2 free skill points.

EDIT: This translates to a difference of 0.5 energy per second, or a difference of 5 energy every 10s.

I would argue that the energy you gain from 1 FS + 3 Revive would be more easily sustainable since damage cannot disrupt it. You'd need to be spot on for your revive timings to hit that number. Maybe recast every 8th pain or every 10th transference?

[MaxxSteele]

I love the stats, and thank you for the number crunching, but I disagree. Force Shield and Protection are very helpful.

[shannong]

It's easy enough to test IBNobody's numbers and theorycrafting. I'll do some consecutive Guardian runs where I do it my current way, and then do some more where I just don't cast FS at all. If I don't notice a *significant* difference in my power reserves and I don't need to drink any power pots, then IBNobody is right. I'll test and report back when I've been able to do about 4 runs for each trial.

[IBNobody]

I love the stats, and thank you for the number crunching, but I disagree. Force Shield and Protection are very helpful.

I'm interested in hearing why. You can't just leave us hanging!

It's easy enough to test IBNobody's numbers and theorycrafting. I'll do some consecutive Guardian runs where I do it my current way, and then do some more where I just don't cast FS at all. If I don't notice a *significant* difference in my power reserves and I don't need to drink any power pots, then IBNobody is right. I'll test and report back when I've been able to do about 4 runs for each trial.

It's very theorycraftish. In practical use, you'll likely not be able to achieve those gains I listed because of the slop inherent in the system. You lose 0.5 seconds or so in latency alone. Then you have the lag of switching skill pages and of using multiple skills.

Still, if you are focused on optimizing energy regeneration, consider putting 4 points in FS and 3 points in revive. That would give you 1.94 energy per second, best case. You may have to wait 'till Sloucho to do this.

Keep in mind, though, that even these energy gains are short-term effects. Skill costs do not increase, but your energy reserves and recovery rates will. If you are already seeing a potionless benefit at 4.12 energy per tick (+2 natural, +1 implant, +1.94 FS/REV), wouldn't a future +3 implant or enough INT to grant +4 natural fill the gap better than these skills do?

[thequickone]

First of all, what a great read! When I saw the thread's title, I said to myself "Oh, boy. Here we go again! Someone's gonna get all grandstandy and armwavy without offering any backup to their crazy ramblings...". What, you don't think I really said that to myself?

Anyway, I was totally proven wrong. Even though I have loved spamming Protection and topping off mana with Force Shield, and didn't want to hear what you were saying, I have heard you and your backup loud and clear. I think more than anything else, I am disappointed with the SL armor mechanic and the pitiful buff offered by Protection (STS may have to rename the skill - "Minor Protection"? "Protection, Sorta"?). I am also not looking forward to other players asking why I am not casting Protection any more...

Regarding Force Shield; I do not believe the armor mechanic revelation either should or will affect the overall use of Force Shield. That is, so long as no one is actually using Force Shield for its Armor buff (please tell me no one is!). STS may need to change this one's name, too - "Mana Bubble"? "Regen Bubble"? Currently, I use Force Shield for its mana regen buff, and only utilize the armor buff once my mana has been topped off. I have Force Shield at level 4 and in slot four (top) of my main skill tab, where it will happily stay. One quick correction; Force Shield gives its +2 M/s buff at level 4, not level 5. So there's 1 Skill Point back, anyway...

One thing not mentioned yet (here, anyway) are the larger ramifications of the armor mechanic revelation. What about my beloved Dura-Skin Armor Implant (50 Armor)? Is that really only reducing my taken damage by 1 point?! What about the Com's beloved Increase Mass skill? Yeah, I maxxed that skill after respec yesterday, used it today, and I was still taking damage (ikr, wtf?!)!! Is that skill really only reducing taken damage by 6 points for its whole five seconds?! Maybe we'll have to stop spamming that skill, too! Can anyone else see the fabric of reality starting to tear?

On the plus side, maybe more people will see the futility of wearing any armor at all, and we will start seeing more naked runs!

I love the stats, and thank you for the number crunching, but I disagree. Force Shield and Protection are very helpful.

Please elaborate. I believe I felt the same as you when I began reading about my beloved Engie skills. I don't understand how you could read what the others have written and still feel the same, at least about Protection, anyway. We really would like to hear what you have to say.

Thanks to Kamakazees' report on Armor properties

If possible, please provide a link to that thread. I would like to read more, and I am having a heck of a time trying to find it!

Alright, 'nuff said. Now I'm off to respec my Engie...again. At least I'll have some more Skill Points to spread around!

[IBNobody]

My math was wrong because I confused spell timing ticks with recovery ticks. Snannong, I was shortchanging you about 0.6 energy per second.

As for the links...

Armor Study:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...ma-Prime-Study!

Implant Study (For QuickOne):
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...rit-vs.-Damage

[IBNobody]

One thing not mentioned yet (here, anyway) are the larger ramifications of the armor mechanic revelation. What about my beloved Dura-Skin Armor Implant (50 Armor)? Is that really only reducing my taken damage by 1 point?! What about the Com's beloved Increase Mass skill? Yeah, I maxxed that skill after respec yesterday, used it today, and I was still taking damage (ikr, wtf?!)!! Is that skill really only reducing taken damage by 6 points for its whole five seconds?! Maybe we'll have to stop spamming that skill, too! Can anyone else see the fabric of reality starting to tear?

If it makes you feel any better, 300 armor is still a lot for our current levels. If you are a commando and have aggro on a bunch of trash mobs that are all hitting you (multiple strikes per second), 6 damage reduction active 50% of the time can add up quickly. Since Protection only offers 1 damage reduction 100% of the time, it doesn't scale as fast. Our heals, which fortunately scale with max weapon damage, can easily make up for no Protection at higher levels.

At some point, Increase Mass will become obsolete. It's just not obsolete yet.

[piyoni1]

For all eng. players,

forget about all the numbers and calculations be a pure game lover person.. so u can try in a pass protected solo map if protection works or not...i tried and imo it really gives nothing important in high lvl maps..

however i am tired of explaining people that protection is not usefull.. so i put 1 point protection
for placebo effect... they think they become better fighters if they see blue square on their feet lol...and u know people start to kick u out because u did not cast protection lol..

for implants i prefer dodge +5, and plat. weopan gives +3 , at lvl25 u will have total 10 dodge with sunwalker set.. imo it is more balanced regarding attack and defence....

[shannong]

You can have 20 dodge as an Engy by using platinum armor and the +dodge platinum rifle (which is way better than the green Savage Claws anyway). This enables you to wear the +regen implant. Yes, it's all plat gear but it's 20 dodge and 1 extra regen! Andit supports the game and helps us keep getting new content.

I think both Engies and Commos should consider the platinum gear primarily for high dodge. I think only operatives can easily skip most or all of the plat gear.

And yes, for commos, that 6 damage mitigation from a maxed increased mass really, truly adds up fast in the alpha strike of Typical Numa mods. With 6 IM and 6 Vigor and 6 Kinetic Resevoir, you can do your job well and almost never burn a single pot, except maybe against Guardian if you're the one dragging him to the cliff and your healer isn't covering you while you do so.

Granted, the effectiveness of Increase Mass and Vigor will diminish as they raise the level cap, but right now it's perfectly useful.