PvP Updates: Proposed Balance Changes (7/21/16)

[Trick]

You seriously cant mean youll nerf our shield? As Anyona said, our shield already gets broken after 2 combos. We need the reduction to survive. Please dont do this.

[Eskaygee]

Just give rogues some armor back and call it even.

[Kingofninjas]

I don't think the biggest issue is mage survival here. It is an issue, but not the biggest one. It has already been proved that rogues can take down mages very quickly through duels. The real issue is the damage mages and tanks deal, more specifically area damage.

Speaking of a clash scenario between a team of 2 tanks 3 mages vs 2 tanks 2 mages 1 rogue. If the rogue wants to contribute to the team, they need to step out of hiding shoot at least an aimed shot and nox bolt. Now both these tanks have glintstone sets. There are axes flying around at an average rate of 1 axe every .875 seconds. This makes it next to impossible for the rogue to time their aimed shots such that they don't get axed. If nekro shield is down, being hit by 1-2 axes, 1-3 fireballs and 1-2 skyward smashes means instant death for the rogue.

If the rogue tries to rush and kill the mage quickly, like they are meant to. All the axes, fireballs, lightnings and skyward smashes will kill them even through Nekro shield. By some miracle, if the rogue manages to survive, they are feeble have no hope of killing anything.

This does not affect the mages as much because most often we can either heal and escape from enemy territory, or shield and run back.

Given this, I dont think nerfing the mage shield damage reduction will help very much as mages will simply wait back for the rogue to get axed. And mages can survive getting axed because of the 2 second invulnerability, not the damage reduction. I won't deny that it will certainly help though.

Reducing the invulnerability of horn of renew will not help as it is rogues who benefit most from this as they do not have any skill that grants them invulnerability.

[ilmercenario]

This only going to unbalance game more, only coz rogs cry u nerf wars nd mages? Just give a buff to rogs we tanks alrdy are papers rogs get us at 20/25%hp with one combo, aim-nox,pierce ... This aint a balance thats the proof devs doesent play al

[Kharjojo]

Very few mages have this insane damage you talking about. The prob with nerfing the whole class like nerfing aimshot is not what happens in max clash but what happens to all the rest of the mages in game. Mid and low level mages absolutely need damage and shield. If rogue can one or 2 combo me then any mid geared Mage will be crushed. And tbh, if I spent 200m on my Mage, I would hope to have some advantages over a rogue that paid 10m for pet and weapon and use some beetle gear. The other issue with these particular nerfs for Mage and warrior is a complete rework of jewels. Rogue can grab mm 6m compensate for armor loss. Give rogue damage and their armor back. But what's suggested here is nerfing mages and tanks class defining skill. Shield is mages aimed shot. Jugg is tanks aimed shot. Rogue was fine before damage nerf. Mage stack still strong but rogues had a place. This will promote more Mage stack. 2 or 3 mages throw shield up and destroy the rogue. Rogues are better 1 v 1 than Mage. Mages flourish more in the team environment. To make rogues more useful than mages in clash I would ask for mages to be more useful in duel than rogue. I've had several people pm me today rip mages. Even the rogues know this is too much. Keep in mind, I've been big advocate of buffing rogues. But in the same way a Mage should be tentative to rush a rogue, rogues need to be tentative to come behind the tanks at mages. Mistakes on both sides should be punished.

The balance lies between where we are now and where we were at 41. Terminator rogues must not exist again. They rule pve. They ruled pvp. That's a no no. I'm not trying to get handled by a rogue that spent 30m or 1/5 of what I did. An equally geared rogue should beat a Mage and they do. A 20m rogue should have no chance against me. They ruled for the longest season in al history. We want balance now. Tanks and mages are fine. Give the rogues their armor and play with the damage numbers. It's simple. I've been saying this and everyone got salty. Now the other two classes may get a nerf to their class defining skills. Fine maybe but definitely renerf aimed shot. It's not just the best skill for rogue. It's the best skill in the game.


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This ^^ very well spoken!

[mathod]

Reading this thread only one thing figures on my mind, u shoud do something with rogue skill like razor shield, nerfing doesn't exit here. I would add more dmg reducing on mastery up to 40% uncharged, 50% charged. Also would be good if u can increase range of arrow skills. I see rogue class like weak on weight, but very dang(means op dmg critical hit) ninjas who's hard to catch. Thx for productive discussing and look at this situation

[Fredystern]

Great i hate it

Rogue in 47 only need 3times combo a mage to break my shield, and sure i use heal at the second combo or ill die with my shield together, now you reduce the shield absorb?
Lets try mage vs rogue in 56, rogue is unstunable if they got a good timing to use nekro AA and razor, so as a mage i didnt see myself as a stunner at pvp, nice update nerf everything buff rogue!! Let rogue is the best on PvP again, i wanted a balance like in 41 cap that was the best i think

And you only make the damage 1k usually rogue hit 3k not 1k, wkth critical sure thats hurt enough to a mage and warrior, even rogue vs rogue mostly who combo thier enemy will won, dont nerf mage they already lack of damage output, armor and health

And i agree with alot of people that rogue is replaced by a mage in clash, the question is why?
I think its because mage was doing alot of damage cause lf our skill type that do AoE and DoT, then rogue?Small AoE and mostly focus on 1enemy, but when they hit tank, they will just like wasting thier mana for skill since warrior could go back and heal regen then comeback again, well lets try then if you guys say mage was the best in clash, 4mage vs 4 rogue, i sure mage won lol except thier rogue is really really good on aiming, even 4tank stack will lose if face againts 1warrior with glint set and 3 wellplayed mage.
Just dont nerf mage anymore or mage will become a dummy again forever, dont just think anout rogue damage output 1k in 56 even in 47 was already atleast 2k without critical and rogue make alot of critical you forget it? Just grant rogue a damage reduction in PvP or give them back thier armor

[Ireliaa]

Our understanding of the PvP at endgame based on your posts in other threads is:

In duels:
Rogues > Sorcerers
Sorcerers > Warriors (can someone explain to me how this fight plays out?)
Warriors > Rogues

As others have stated, this is a form of Rock Paper Scissors. This is ok with us, we don't want to upset this balance (though we would like it if player skill can win any of these battles).

Some factors that would help us when considering duels that players can answer:
1) How one-sided are the duel battles right now? For example is the Rogue > Sorcerer battle close, but Rogues usually win? Or is the battle one sided with the Rogue having more than 50% hp while the Sorcerer dies? The same for the Sorcerer vs Warrior matchup, and the Warrior vs Rogue matchup.
2) What skills are typically taken in a 1v1 battle (that aren't taken in a Clash)

In Clashes:
Warriors: Feel good. Sufficiently tanky, with potential damage output.
Sorcerers: Feel good. Squishy but have the ability to survive with shields and good play with Warriors. Damage is ok.
Rogues: Do not feel good. Going up against more than 1 Warrior or Sorcerer leads to not enough damage output to take down a single character before dying.


Rogues are meant to be glass cannons as many players have mentioned. Based on the Duel scenario, it sounds like Rogues are living up to this. They win the duel in which they out-burst the tankiness of their opponent (Sorcerers), they lose the duel in which they cannot burst their opponent down (Warriors).

What we want to look at now is why Rogues cannot perform the same role in Clashes when facing multiple Warriors or Sorcerers. I have seen players mention that Sorcerers can be protected by a good tank, but for some reason a Rogue can not be protected by that same tank. From what players have said, in Clashes a Rogue can't put out enough dps to be effective.

Questions I have about this scenario for Rogues:
1) In a Clash if you're able to get to the Sorcerer, do you feel you can kill them (like you can in a duel)?
2) What skills are typically taken in a Clash (that aren't taken in a Duel)


These are the thoughts that have led us to examining the disparity of PvP adjustments. Rogue's damage has been reduced, but the ability for other classes to survive (as players have mentioned, Rogues don't have many tools to increase survivability) was not. Our desires from this discussion is to target the best way to adjust that without affecting other balances system (specifically duels).

Note:
In terms of these changes happening, we're firmly listening to the community on this one. What we've written is our proposed changes and nothing is going to go live or be tested until a discussion has happened, so please give your feedback on the problem

one of the main reason we cant take out mages while under protection of warr is the infamous arcane sword proc and 3 axe pulls.

we are single target damage when we get pulled or atack from range, enemy warr tanks the damage but when mage atack, their skill hits aoe so same warr cant able to protect us


and as you mentioned its nothing like vs , because mage rogue battle is generally close one where as undergeared warr vs max geared rogue losing because of the arcane sword not the skill set of warrior and if you add glintstone set into this it makes it imposible

so if we compare if we are gonna lose to warrior by far, not close battle( yea warr takes 2 even 3 vs 1 rogue on ease) mage shield reduction is justified

[JesuisCharlie]

To me, the problem come from Shadow Veil too. You designed each skills trees with a precise goal and gave importance to each skills and shadow veil is the big loser.
The actual Shadow Veil dont fit with the rogue concept and gameplay its just not enought fast, not instant at all unlike all rogue skills and the point you can chose for the bomb explode at the end is very very useless both on PVP and PVE.

[Ireliaa]

i suggest make kdrless pvp for a while to test senarios like this

[matiusjohntw]

You nerfed rogue's aim, now u will nerf mage's shield and war's jugg, then rogue's aim will have the same 'taste' like it was before

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[Ireliaa]

Very few mages have this insane damage you talking about. The prob with nerfing the whole class like nerfing aimshot is not what happens in max clash but what happens to all the rest of the mages in game. Mid and low level mages absolutely need damage and shield. If rogue can one or 2 combo me then any mid geared Mage will be crushed. And tbh, if I spent 200m on my Mage, I would hope to have some advantages over a rogue that paid 10m for pet and weapon and use some beetle gear. The other issue with these particular nerfs for Mage and warrior is a complete rework of jewels. Rogue can grab mm 6m compensate for armor loss. Give rogue damage and their armor back. But what's suggested here is nerfing mages and tanks class defining skill. Shield is mages aimed shot. Jugg is tanks aimed shot. Rogue was fine before damage nerf. Mage stack still strong but rogues had a place. This will promote more Mage stack. 2 or 3 mages throw shield up and destroy the rogue. Rogues are better 1 v 1 than Mage. Mages flourish more in the team environment. To make rogues more useful than mages in clash I would ask for mages to be more useful in duel than rogue. I've had several people pm me today rip mages. Even the rogues know this is too much. Keep in mind, I've been big advocate of buffing rogues. But in the same way a Mage should be tentative to rush a rogue, rogues need to be tentative to come behind the tanks at mages. Mistakes on both sides should be punished.

The balance lies between where we are now and where we were at 41. Terminator rogues must not exist again. They rule pve. They ruled pvp. That's a no no. I'm not trying to get handled by a rogue that spent 30m or 1/5 of what I did. An equally geared rogue should beat a Mage and they do. A 20m rogue should have no chance against me. They ruled for the longest season in al history. We want balance now. Tanks and mages are fine. Give the rogues their armor and play with the damage numbers. It's simple. I've been saying this and everyone got salty. Now the other two classes may get a nerf to their class defining skills. Fine maybe but definitely renerf aimed shot. It's not just the best skill for rogue. It's the best skill in the game.


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when undergeared warr takes the very maxed geared rogue on ease this isnt a problem, but you want advantage over rogue

sure you are right it also hurts me to get wrecked by arcane sword a 2m item vs 3 para rings noble finesses 56 arcane weapons etc

mage rogue battle generally close one yet 1 warr can take equally geared 2 rogue without a sweat, tell me how is this balanced rock paper scissor ?

[JesuisCharlie]

Sorry for the double post but i forgot to mention the best quality of shadow veil expiration point: the little smoothie wonderful explosion!
Maybe it can absorb the players eyes arround and allow the rogue to escape like nothing happenned?

[Fredystern]

when undergeared warr takes the very maxed geared rogue on ease this isnt a problem, but you want advantage over rogue

sure you are right it also hurts me to get wrecked by arcane sword a 2m item vs 3 para rings noble finesses 56 arcane weapons etc

mage rogue battle generally close one yet 1 warr can take equally geared 2 rogue without a sweat, tell me how is this balanced rock paper scissor ?

Mage vs warr = mostly warr win wuth dirty spamming lava trick
Mage vs rog = lets see who gear was better
Rog vs warr = mostly warrior win with dirty trick too

[reiewaun]

If you want to nerf mages shields, I want my damage buffed and some sort of skill that reduces armor. You're right about the rock paper scissors thing but its the point where rogues with less gear than me are killing me which I don't feel like that should be the case.

I believe all the duel scenario's you mentioned are one sided. And as for skills I use in a duel they're:

(Vs Rogues and Tanks)
Shield
Heal
Light
Ice
(Using nekro)

(Vs Rogues)
Or:
Shield
Light
Fireball
Ice
(Using Shady and Surge)

I feel that Rogue V Mage is very luck dependant on the mages part as you're very dependant on auto attacks landing and critical hits. Where as Tank V Mage it is much easier due to you being able to alternate shields and heal when needed.


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U obviously doing something wrong or the rouge u faced wasn't undergeared as u thought

[Ireliaa]

Mage vs warr = mostly warr win wuth dirty spamming lava trick
Mage vs rog = lets see who gear was better
Rog vs warr = mostly warrior win with dirty trick too

in all classes better gear should win. it was like that pre introduction of 46 arcane weapons and armor nerf

[Fredystern]

Ya but the arc sword 46 proc was so annoying, if that was skill its ok but, its only proc but do alot of damage

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[Gaviinn]

Those suggestions are awesome

[soon]

I wanted changes in rogue survival capacity in pve. Skills like viel lose to buff armor doll.

[reiewaun]

Mage vs warr = mostly warr win wuth dirty spamming lava trick
Mage vs rog = lets see who gear was better
Rog vs warr = mostly warrior win with dirty trick too

U can't be losing from war