Idea for Fixing Pures vs. Hybrids

[flaimdude]

I would like to point this out:

21-06, 20:12 Justg This game is all about hybrids

They're not gonna nerf hybrids, lol. That's why I think pures need a boost, instead of 'downgrading' hybrids.

[Justg]

Good ideas. PvP rebalance is going to take awhile, we are going to put it on our roadmap.

[PvP]

Good ideas. PvP rebalance is going to take awhile, we are going to put it on our roadmap.

Thank you so much. I will continue to play my archer for this reason... :]

[bmc85uk]

I hear ya Justg and it's a breath of fresh air :-)

And to all those a bit apprehensive we're all really working towards the same end - a balanced game in which all class combinations, pure and hybrid, are equally fun to play with their own plus sides, with a development team so hands-on and willing to listen, I'm sure that even if they don't nail it first time you can bet your bottom dollar they'll do everything they can to iron out the problems until the vast majority of the community is happy :-)

[Azrael]

Good ideas. PvP rebalance is going to take awhile, we are going to put it on our roadmap.

I really appreciate it Justg.

I think the key to any pvp rebalance in regards to the OP, is to not create artificial alterations to statistics. The class system should not have extra logs or variables changing stats to create balance. In order to create long term balance, a universal mathematical system should create the balance. Any artificial (and by that i mean adding an equation to the system after the fact in order to alter it) changes amount quick fixes that quickly become outdated as the game is upgraded and expanded. Its like trying to fix a the rotting structure of a house with duct tape.

[Kraze]

What I don't get is the the whole pure vs hybrid debate comes down to pvp no one is forceing you to fight hybrids if it is really hundreds of pure chars that are mad (as claimed in other threads) then you shouldn't have any trouble finding a game or even better have a 1v1 pure only pvp turny I'm sure you guys will have a good time. Just because you like you're build why can't evreyone else have fun with thiers?

[bmc85uk]

You're missing the point, we're trying to make it obvious that it doesn't have to be that way.

I certainly don't want to play a game where I'm segregated from half of the community, even if only in pvp, the fact of the matter is the game should be balanced enough so that everyone can take part in everything, pve group or solo, single or group pvp.

Sure balance will probably never be truely achieved but it doesn't mean it's something you shouldn't strive for, something needs to change, it's jus a case of minimising collateral damage from bringing the game back onto a level playing field.

EDIT:
Nobody wants to get nerfed, so as mentioned before I agree with the idea of giving pure classes a slight edge to their main style, for example give pure enchanters some benefit to their skills or mana pool/regen to match what they miss out in ac/dps/health compared to their str hybrid.

If you strengthen the weaker class then the hybrids won't get nerfed but it still gives the illusion of them having 'weaker' areas.

[Kraze]

I think you are missing the point I'm makeing so I will give it a second shot. The build(s) you decide to go with are a choice for whatever reason it may be. Now after picking your build you want a boost how is that fair to evreyone else? Now if a boost is going to be given to the "pure" chars they should have to dump close to 90% of thier points in to the "pure" stat no jut enough to equip gear and evreything else in to dex

[flaimdude]

I think you are missing the point I'm makeing so I will give it a second shot. The build(s) you decide to go with are a choice for whatever reason it may be. Now after picking your build you want a boost how is that fair to evreyone else? Now if a boost is going to be given to the "pure" chars they should have to dump close to 90% of thier points in to the "pure" stat no jut enough to equip gear and evreything else in to dex

Maybe 75%? Like my ench has mostly int, but I still do like some dex and str for their benefits. We don't want pures to be uber-pure, but they do need a little boost.

[bmc85uk]

I see what you're saying and in that sense i completely agree with you, i wouldnt count myself as a hybrid, but i have about 125 into int with 101 dex, i still play as a magic user and im very squishy. However, giving int a bigger impact in favour of pure classes could be done incrementally so that if you sacrifice your int for dex, there will be a change but less significant. Traditionally a hybrid or cross-class is more rigid, but with incremental effects from stat changes this would give PL the edge to allow you to take a character and break the mould with something unique.

I can see how having now 'made my character and wanting a boost' could be misconstrued as powerhungry and greedy, but the last thing i'd want is to suddenly become overpowered in either pvp or pve, the challenge is part of the fun, knowing how your character setup plays best and acting out your strategy.

Unfortunately right now certain bosses are a little unstable;

Bastet and the Witch, with the one hit wipe AE nukes.

Seth - to a lesser degree but still a little to dangerous to get to close to with a squishy character (not easily avoidable if you like to play as a healer - it's very easy to get caught in the melee and go splat)

Dead Eyes - very fast consistent damage that even with +40 def from buffs (bringing me to around 110) coupled with manashield using my reasonable mana pool as absorption, seems impossible to fairly outheal/potion, not fun considering hes ranged!
(I may have missed some bosses but these are the ones that spring to mind)

Throw into the mix the occasional lag spike and the rubber banding effect I seem to get (don't know if this is a more common problem) when being hit, springing me back a few steps when i'm trying to kite/flee, and you soon have a lot of factors that make certain classes significantly underpowered in certain areas, unable to handle their own and with no room for error/bad luck)

I've said it before but i'll say it again;

Warriors outclassing a ranger with a bow.
Paladins & Battlemages, while perhaps not being quite as tough as a pure warrior, being perfectly good tanks, commendable DPS and equal magic/skill users to their pure race/class counterpart.

Comparisons drawn to other MMO's rarely do well, generally provoking a response of 'well if you like the way they do it, go play that game' but i think it's pretty much unanimous across the board that the above examples and anything similar just isn't really wanted or accepted.


Apologies for the essay and any constructive feedback is much appreciated, i'm trying to work towards something that most, if not everybody can accept.

[Kraze]

But how at a nearly 50-50 build can you not say you are a hybrid? Sounds like it could be a bowtress that decided to use a wand. Bottom line the only really pure chars you will see in large numbers are the birds because that high crit is just too much to pass on. It's wanting that x factor that causes people to build hybrids in some for or anouther some builds go a little more extreme than others but to a degree most use a little of a hybrid. In just my opnion a truelly pure build needs to be close to 100%. I know I'd never drink a bottle of water that said 75% pure.

[Izbar]

Well you would if the other 25% was KOOLAID bam!!!!!!!!

[Kraze]

Rofl k that would be the only exception

[bmc85uk]

Yeah I agree with you to some degree.

My character was pure until I got so annoyed with dying every other fight I decided to take the plunge at about level 30 and try to muster some staying power with a little dodge and some crit to wipe em out before they get close, it hasn't quite done the trick completely but it helps.

I still consider my setup to be quite close to a traditional enchanter as I still use int gear, my character is better in every way compared to a pure except mana pool, which doesn't really bother me as I still spam potions just as often, and i only lose out on 1 mana regen.

Just to reaffirm it again as everyone against a rebalance seems to ignore this fact, my skills are just as powerful as a pure but now have added crit chance, so maybe tying spell crit chance into int might work, for the enchantress only I would assume, and doing something about the mana regen would help.

[Kraze]

To a degree I see what your seeing however your enchantress differs from my bowmage by about 10 dex and the weps we decided to use. I just don't see the need to do a major retool or buff up or nerf or anything like that. But in the end no matter what's done the devs will not be able to please evreyone. But you made some good points but I think we will have to agree to disagree

[Royce]

Let's not confuse the word hybrid here. In PL a hybrid is pretty simple. You can only allot enough points to wear the best gear in one class, so even if you allot no more to that attribute, you are a "pure" member of that class. A hybrid is simply an enchantress in dex or str gear, a warrior in int or dex gear, or an archer in int or str gear. That's it.

[Izbar]

This "debate" is going to go on forever not because hybrids are so OP and pures are so weak but because someone is always going to be stronger than someone else. If there is absolute balance the game would be BORING. The cool thing about a hybrid is that it takes a lil thought to create were as a pure is simple and easy. A guy who is playing a hybrid looks at all the gear finds out what combo would be best for what is out there. The guys playing the pure looks for the word dreamer equips it and stacks int. It's like if you could be Chuck Noris or Steve Urckel from family matters. Yeah sure steves smart and really good looking but Chucks gonna do that rounds house kick stuff and then throw in some M/s and Steves gonna be like wait that's not fai....and he won't even be able to finish cause Chuck freaking Noris just kicked his face off!!!!! Anyway just a thought GO PALLIS!!!!!

[Kraze]

Let's not confuse the word hybrid here. In PL a hybrid is pretty simple. You can only allot enough points to wear the best gear in one class, so even if you allot no more to that attribute, you are a "pure" member of that class. A hybrid is simply an enchantress in dex or str gear, a warrior in int or dex gear, or an archer in int or str gear. That's it.

So once you have enough points allotted to equip best gear the game won't let you put any more points in that category? The only point I'm trying to make is that if you choose to play as a "pure" char great have fun. If you want more mana don't dump the hundred points in to dex.

[bmc85uk]

I agree with Royce, an enchantress in full int gear with high dex is still going to play like an enchantress, just with better crit/evade.

I don't like the idea that I'm forced to borrow attributes of another play style merely to give myself a fighting chance, by all means, make it so that my current setup would still be playable, but make it so a heavy int setup would also be playable, having it's own int related merits to allow for survival using some play style, customisation should be an option not a necessity for survival.

Cant say I'd agree that total balance would make the game boring, would just make it a level playing field where each class could beat another, it then comes down to your strategy and how well you play.

As far as I'm concerned the game should also be about skill, not purely who chose the most logical setup and kitted out with the best gear.

Luckily for you Izbar, there will never be true balance and even if there was it's not really definable as it would all come down to opinion, sports are supposed to be fair but there will always be a million and one excuses as to why it isn't, usually from the losers perspective.

Nobody with any sense would want the extra mana pool or regen from higher int, 1ms just isn't worth the 40 or so points needed to jump the base rate, and as long as ms is so heavily reliant on gear, and potions are a staple part of PL, the minor difference in mana pool is insignificant.

Regardless, I've made my points, I won't bore any of you anymore with repeating them, if I haven't helped you to see things from my point of view and reach some common ground by now then it can only spiral out of control into flames from here.

Like Kraze said, let's agree to disagree, I trust the development team to take the game in the direction they think is best.

[Kraze]

Completly off topic but bmc if you ever need help leveling one of your Alts look me up as my post count shows I normally only log out of the game to check patch notes during server downtimes. I promise to not try to convert you to hybrid builds