PVP Updates: We're going live! PART 3

[Ireliaa]

Interesting discussion....

I cringe whenever an improvement to a certain skill is proposed and everyone posts "well nobody uses that skill anyway so it doesn't help...."

That itself is a sign that the discussed skill needs improvement. There should be a full variety of skill combinations that top players use. If most of the top players are all using the same build, then that indicates some balance issues among the various skills.

What annoys me about this particular discussion is that when given the opportunity to improve survivability at the expense of damage, rogues always complain that they don't like it. What Zeus is proposing sounds very reasonable. If you want better survivability, then you should have to be willing to substitute an offensive skill for a defensive skill. It appears the issue at hand here is that the rogue's defensive skill is inferior. If that is the case, then it needs to be improved to make it worthwhile to use.

As a Mage, I have 2 of my 4 skill slots using defensive/support skills (shield and heal). There is no reason a rogue cannot do that same thing. Even with only 2 offensive skills, a rogue is still going to cause much more damage than a sorcerer since the rogue's skill cool down is 2 seconds compared to 3-4 seconds for a Mage.

well doesnt matter how much you cringe , the update by itself has no effect on survivability whatsoever, it maybe a sign but its not guarantied to be chased further

discussion is how much damage reduction should be added to make viable trade off in damage loss, you give mage example about damage loss but remember you have %55 DR shield and pretty OP heal in that tradeoff

[chiloto]

It seems to me that from reading all these threads that most ppl would be ok with buffing the cannon while maintaining the glass. So throwing out a proposal here. No idea if it is even viable. Aimed already is a hot topic so lets look at nox. Could we remove the dot from nox and make it an upgrade option. Then to improve the cannon increase the impact dmg of nox. This would give two ranged attack skills with higher dmg but not be automatically cancelled out by curse and all the dot. Thoughts?

[Oaheuzihar]

I'm complaining about the fact that rogues do not have a place in PvP. This is a wide known fact and something that you cannot deny. Even developers have acknowledged that's an issue. Denying it at this point is futile. Like it or not, we are going to get changes for our class that make it worth playing. The same way that sorcerers got changes to their class that made a sorcerer worth playing.

Please comprehend my points and do not twist my words. Thank you.

True. All classes should be worth playing. I remember how great it felt when mages got powered uo and i went from getting rekt 95% of the time to getting rekt 50% of the time. Rogues deserve this too.

[VROOMIGoRealFast]

Thanks for the feedback on Charged vs Uncharged Razor Shield. We've evaluated the ability and will also be adding an additional 3 seconds to all effects of Charged Razor Shield to maintain a reason to charge the ability.

[Zeus]

Thanks for the feedback on Charged vs Uncharged Razor Shield. We've evaluated the ability and will also be adding an additional 3 seconds to all effects of Charged Razor Shield to maintain a reason to charge the ability.

Thanks Vroom, but are rogues going to get any damage reduction besides the 10% mastery for razor? It's really essential and we even have a handful of sorcerers agreeing that 25% is not all that much?

[Stefandeaconu]

So what's the difference now between charged and uncharged razor shield? What do we gain from charging the skill?

3 extra seconds of razor

[Vorg]

If rouges are getting any type of damage reduction it should be on the shadow veil skill not on razor.

[Zeus]

If rouges are getting any type of damage reduction it should be on the shadow veil skill not on razor.

That would be pointless considering PvP is a volatile environment. Axes and pulls completely destroy the purpose of shadow veil.

[yubaraj]

I don't see warriors saying anything on this buff.

I am pretty sure after this update warrior will be crying.

Prove me wrong lol.

[Niixed]

I think some readers here find it difficult to read between the lines, so I'd like to point out that it sure looks like STS is bending over backwards and showing a vast amount of patience that is above and beyond what most developers would ever even consider doing. This is iteration number three of a very touchy subject that is guaranteed to cause lots of drama. I don't think they're masochists.

Sure, devs could give us everything we want, except that everything we want would completely ruin the game due to unforeseen and unconsidered consequences. STS' biggest job is to be is the Ultimate Guardian of Game Integrity. They know things that we don't know and they know even more things that we don't want to know about because they're too boring or technical. They cannot to reveal everything to us because it would also ruin the game and quite possibly their business. It's tough to swallow for some, but we don't have another choice but to give them a big helping of trust. We ask them to do the impossible, or rather, to make the impossible possible somehow - with code magic, dancing finger rituals, and sweat sacrifice.

My fear is that, from their perspective, we sometimes seem kinda ungrateful for their efforts. How motivated would you be to help someone who you know is ungrateful? Honest, constructive criticism is not ingratitude, but petty sniping sure is.

Perhaps you think this small buff to razor shield is "useless" or whatnot, but it isn't. It is a small step toward a greater goal. As Vroom stated: "We're intentionally moving forward with small improvements and then monitoring their effectiveness before taking more action." Do you hear what he's saying? "Improvement" has an "s" attached, indicating more than one. He's saying they're not finished yet and they're watching with full attention to see what the effect of this one is.

So, please, everyone find their tranquil zone and focus on the fact that things are moving in the direction we want.

[Zeus]

I think some readers here find it difficult to read between the lines, so I'd like to point out that it sure looks like STS is bending over backwards and showing a vast amount of patience that is above and beyond what most developers would ever even consider doing. This is iteration number three of a very touchy subject that is guaranteed to cause lots of drama. I don't think they're masochists.

Sure, devs could give us everything we want, except that everything we want would completely ruin the game due to unforeseen and unconsidered consequences. STS' biggest job is to be is the Ultimate Guardian of Game Integrity. They know things that we don't know and they know even more things that we don't want to know about because they're too boring or technical. They cannot to reveal everything to us because it would also ruin the game and quite possibly their business. It's tough to swallow for some, but we don't have another choice but to give them a big helping of trust. We ask them to do the impossible, or rather, to make the impossible possible somehow - with code magic, dancing finger rituals, and sweat sacrifice.

My fear is that, from their perspective, we sometimes seem kinda ungrateful for their efforts. How motivated would you be to help someone who you know is ungrateful? Honest, constructive criticism is not ingratitude, but petty sniping sure is.

Perhaps you think this small buff to razor shield is "useless" or whatnot, but it isn't. It is a small step toward a greater goal. As Vroom stated: "We're intentionally moving forward with small improvements and then monitoring their effectiveness before taking more action." Do you hear what he's saying? "Improvement" has an "s" attached, indicating more than one. He's saying they're not finished yet and they're watching with full attention to see what the effect of this one is.

So, please, everyone find their tranquil zone and focus on the fact that things are moving in the direction we want.

I did say I appreciate the buff in the right direction. I do understand there will be more in the future, I am just stating what should be added in the next revision.

[Zulgath]

I think this would help abit in pvp..

When we clash as a rogue, we rogues want to go full dmg, but the problem is we cant even use pierce frequently, bcs if we do would be extremly deadly to our hp %

What about giving us 1s of 50% of dmg reduction after using pierce

Would help us survive longer for sure and ofc dmg more bcs we will be free to use pierce everytime.. Any suggestion?

I dont think it would affect vs much if mages r smart enough to time their skills

I am not sure if this is too op so..

Mages like plqgue, yubaraj or whatever comments in 3..2..1..

[yubaraj]

I think this would help abit in pvp..

When we clash as a rogue, we rogues want to go full dmg, but the problem is we cant even use pierce frequently, bcs if we do would be extremly deadly to our hp %

What about giving us 1s of 50% of dmg reduction after using pierce

Would help us survive longer for sure and ofc dmg more bcs we will be free to use pierce everytime.. Any suggestion?

I dont think it would affect vs much if mages r smart enough to time their skills

I am not sure if this is too op so..

Mages like plqgue, yubaraj or whatever comments in 3..2..1..

1 second damage reduction ok no problem
I wish I could give it to you now.

Anyways I always want to see balance in this game. I appreciate devs hard work. I am not Kdr lover. I don't feel like ganging. I can't spawn kill. I play for fun in my free time. I just don't want to see rogue too op in PvP. Btw my main class is rogue.

[Plqgue]

I think this would help abit in pvp..

When we clash as a rogue, we rogues want to go full dmg, but the problem is we cant even use pierce frequently, bcs if we do would be extremly deadly to our hp %

What about giving us 1s of 50% of dmg reduction after using pierce

Would help us survive longer for sure and ofc dmg more bcs we will be free to use pierce everytime.. Any suggestion?

I dont think it would affect vs much if mages r smart enough to time their skills

I am not sure if this is too op so..

Mages like plqgue, yubaraj or whatever comments in 3..2..1..

I actually think that Zeus has it right with the 25% damage reduction added in razor not pierce ...oh and thanks for mentioning me

[Zynzyn]

I think some readers here find it difficult to read between the lines, so I'd like to point out that it sure looks like STS is bending over backwards and showing a vast amount of patience that is above and beyond what most developers would ever even consider doing. This is iteration number three of a very touchy subject that is guaranteed to cause lots of drama. I don't think they're masochists.

Sure, devs could give us everything we want, except that everything we want would completely ruin the game due to unforeseen and unconsidered consequences. STS' biggest job is to be is the Ultimate Guardian of Game Integrity. They know things that we don't know and they know even more things that we don't want to know about because they're too boring or technical. They cannot to reveal everything to us because it would also ruin the game and quite possibly their business. It's tough to swallow for some, but we don't have another choice but to give them a big helping of trust. We ask them to do the impossible, or rather, to make the impossible possible somehow - with code magic, dancing finger rituals, and sweat sacrifice.

My fear is that, from their perspective, we sometimes seem kinda ungrateful for their efforts. How motivated would you be to help someone who you know is ungrateful? Honest, constructive criticism is not ingratitude, but petty sniping sure is.

Perhaps you think this small buff to razor shield is "useless" or whatnot, but it isn't. It is a small step toward a greater goal. As Vroom stated: "We're intentionally moving forward with small improvements and then monitoring their effectiveness before taking more action." Do you hear what he's saying? "Improvement" has an "s" attached, indicating more than one. He's saying they're not finished yet and they're watching with full attention to see what the effect of this one is.

So, please, everyone find their tranquil zone and focus on the fact that things are moving in the direction we want.

Oh such deference! Admirable indeed.

It is realized that devs are doing their best to work on balance and the effort is acknowledged by several among us. The issue is very clear - All 3 classes are now damage-dealers, and 2 of them survive longer than the rogue, making Mage+Tank an effective enough team to not need rogues in teamfights. Another problem is that while Tanks and Mages can use any arcane pet and still be effective, Rogues have to always rely on the Nekro AA.

When these are the issues, lets see it for ourselves when the update goes live, whether the new razor helps. It is appreciated that changes are made with small steps and testing, we are definitely going in the right direction.

[Energizeric]

Overall I think the big problem with PvP is how fast kills are obtained. This is why many of us prefer twink PvP -- the fights actually last a while.

As long as PvP at endgame is a 10 second affair, then balance is going to be very tough to achieve. As an example, let's talk a mage vs rogue battle. So as a mage, I put up my shield and attack the rogue. If I manage to kill him with the first 2-3 hits, I can win the fight. But if he manages to get to his healing packs in between those hits, then he will survive, and by then my shield will be down, and the rogue will be able to kill me with a single combo.

If the rogue's defense was just a little bit better, then the mage will not be able to kill the rogue before the mage shield drops, and then the rogue will win the battle. If the rogue's defense is slightly worse, then the mage will win the battle. There is no room for error or variety of strategy here. There is no grey area.... It's either white or black.

Now let's examine this same battle at level 10. At level 10, at best I will be able to reduce the rogue's health by about 40-50% with 2-3 hits. The rogue will surely get to his healing packs, and when my shield goes down, the rogue will be able to get my health down with a few attacks, but not enough to kill me. I will then be able to heal myself (although not fully) and the cycle will repeat. The winner will be whoever outlasts the other. This could take 3 or more rounds of shields & healing packs. If someone lands a critical hit or a stun, that could be enough to turn the tide and gain a win. But for the most part, whoever plays the more perfect match will win.

[Fredystern]

Oh such deference! Admirable indeed.

It is realized that devs are doing their best to work on balance and the effort is acknowledged by several among us. The issue is very clear - All 3 classes are now damage-dealers, and 2 of them survive longer than the rogue, making Mage+Tank an effective enough team to not need rogues in teamfights. Another problem is that while Tanks and Mages can use any arcane pet and still be effective, Rogues have to always rely on the Nekro AA.

When these are the issues, lets see it for ourselves when the update goes live, whether the new razor helps. It is appreciated that changes are made with small steps and testing, we are definitely going in the right direction.

All class become damage dealer when capped 46 .-. tank and mage damage only different about 150

[Ireliaa]

Oh such deference! Admirable indeed.

It is realized that devs are doing their best to work on balance and the effort is acknowledged by several among us. The issue is very clear - All 3 classes are now damage-dealers, and 2 of them survive longer than the rogue, making Mage+Tank an effective enough team to not need rogues in teamfights. Another problem is that while Tanks and Mages can use any arcane pet and still be effective, Rogues have to always rely on the Nekro AA.

When these are the issues, lets see it for ourselves when the update goes live, whether the new razor helps. It is appreciated that changes are made with small steps and testing, we are definitely going in the right direction.

and since putting back mage and warr where they were before is not an option, putting the rogue into the standards of todays pvp is the way
which leaves us with heavy buff on survivability if you wanna compete or if you wanna use a pet other than nekro and have equal standards

[intrepd]

Overall I think the big problem with PvP is how fast kills are obtained. This is why many of us prefer twink PvP -- the fights actually last a while.

As long as PvP at endgame is a 10 second affair, then balance is going to be very tough to achieve. As an example, let's talk a mage vs rogue battle. So as a mage, I put up my shield and attack the rogue. If I manage to kill him with the first 2-3 hits, I can win the fight. But if he manages to get to his healing packs in between those hits, then he will survive, and by then my shield will be down, and the rogue will be able to kill me with a single combo.

If the rogue's defense was just a little bit better, then the mage will not be able to kill the rogue before the mage shield drops, and then the rogue will win the battle. If the rogue's defense is slightly worse, then the mage will win the battle. There is no room for error or variety of strategy here. There is no grey area.... It's either white or black.

Now let's examine this same battle at level 10. At level 10, at best I will be able to reduce the rogue's health by about 40-50% with 2-3 hits. The rogue will surely get to his healing packs, and when my shield goes down, the rogue will be able to get my health down with a few attacks, but not enough to kill me. I will then be able to heal myself (although not fully) and the cycle will repeat. The winner will be whoever outlasts the other. This could take 3 or more rounds of shields & healing packs. If someone lands a critical hit or a stun, that could be enough to turn the tide and gain a win. But for the most part, whoever plays the more perfect match will win.

exactly, but if we are buffing rogue armor through stats then it would just make it harder for mages, thats why its better to add 25% reduce damage to razors then if rogues want a little more defense then they have to exchange it with 1 of the offensive skills which is most likely Nox, does it not sound fair?

[Ireliaa]

Overall I think the big problem with PvP is how fast kills are obtained. This is why many of us prefer twink PvP -- the fights actually last a while.

As long as PvP at endgame is a 10 second affair, then balance is going to be very tough to achieve. As an example, let's talk a mage vs rogue battle. So as a mage, I put up my shield and attack the rogue. If I manage to kill him with the first 2-3 hits, I can win the fight. But if he manages to get to his healing packs in between those hits, then he will survive, and by then my shield will be down, and the rogue will be able to kill me with a single combo.

If the rogue's defense was just a little bit better, then the mage will not be able to kill the rogue before the mage shield drops, and then the rogue will win the battle. If the rogue's defense is slightly worse, then the mage will win the battle. There is no room for error or variety of strategy here. There is no grey area.... It's either white or black.

Now let's examine this same battle at level 10. At level 10, at best I will be able to reduce the rogue's health by about 40-50% with 2-3 hits. The rogue will surely get to his healing packs, and when my shield goes down, the rogue will be able to get my health down with a few attacks, but not enough to kill me. I will then be able to heal myself (although not fully) and the cycle will repeat. The winner will be whoever outlasts the other. This could take 3 or more rounds of shields & healing packs. If someone lands a critical hit or a stun, that could be enough to turn the tide and gain a win. But for the most part, whoever plays the more perfect match will win.

lol isnt rogue suppose to take mage?, what happened rock paper scissor? where warrior has enermous advantage over rogue which even leads imposible to take down, you want to take rogue before your shild goes down

do you know what happens when nekro shield goes down which has way less of a duration than mage shield mage destroys rogue it matters on group fights

on side note if you use razor, you lose your nox, so that spam combo loses entire skill, calculate that also on your hypotetical battle