Shield + Pistol vs. "Boxing Gloves"

[Draco Mikato]

I call em "boxing gloves" because generally, that's what photonhands and hammer fists look like.

But besides DPS and possible INT boost to compliment anything, is there a good reason for Engies to use boxing gloves?

[GigaBits]

Heres my 2c on the matter. You probably know that more damage=more skill damage and stronger heals. You probably also know that more damage=more aggro. Converse to this is more DPS = less aggro but also means weaker heals and skill damage. It's really up to you but the majority of people are going to tell you to go with a rifle or pistol/shield. I use a shield/pistol set up and like it okay but I don't think, given our armor buffing abilities, that the shield is even needed other than for health and mana.

[Hullukko]

To be more accurate, more weapon base damage equates to more skill damage. The time is not a factor there, and thus the dps shown in stats page is just about the most misleading number in the game (because it also neglects enemy armor). In short, most skill damage (also healing power) is yielded by rifles. And against moderately and better armored enemy the same holds for weapon damage.

And just to correct, GigaBits probably meant "less dps = less aggro".

Personally, I see no use for shield+pistol setup outside of director's chamber perhaps, but each to their own liking I suppose.

[Ellyidol]

Agree with the posts here. As a commando, although different class, I don't see the use of a pistol + shield setup so far. It yields the best tanking stats, but reduces what a commando is for; aggro or damage.

That said, I think the pistol shield setup is quite good for an engineer. More defensive and supportive.

[roguedubb]

Boxing Gloves - DPS is part of an Engineer's support function. I see no excuse for shields, other than looks (heck, that's why I have one I pop on for gigs). If you have a pile of melee mobs on you, run. If you are getting ranged, LoS and reposition as required. A shield will reduce damage, but the heals from Emp/Trans/Lch should keep a mobile Engineer pretty well topped off unless some hella-pull goes wrong.

If you are sacrificing DPS for tanking stats, there are probably other issues that should be addressed instead.

[sickside]

first off boxing gloves pretty much useless as a engineer unless you just like to role play star wars

second off i can heal pretty good using turbo pistol from plat store (dont have a shield yet) but when i do get a shield ill be able to heal as good as i can now and have 134 (+60 when i spec back into protection) extra armor

the goal of the engineer is to keep every one alive and revived and if im a dead engineer i cant do that and using a pistol wont totally gimp your healing enough to where its useless

[Teddyache]

.And just to correct, GigaBits probably meant "less dps = less aggro".

I think he meant base damage > DPS in the aggro calculation. You've already outlined the reasons so I won't repeat them other than to reiterate that higher healing also factors into the aggro so a higher base damage weapon increases aggro from damage and aggro from healing.

Using a pistol/shield will reduce your damage and healing so I guess it's a personal play style choice. You shouldn't need it in the first 3 runs in Sloucho IMHO. I see how it would come in handy in the last two when the mobs get stronger, but a good team shouldn't need it.

[GigaBits]

@teddyache spot on, that's exactly what I meant.
Dps is a somewhat meaningless number but I would be foolish to ignore it's implications entirely. This is a great discussion, I'm enjoying finding out what other engineers think about our class and others.

BTW, P+S, party buffs, heals and revive plus a bit of damage...
Sounds like some kind of paladin to me

[sickside]

think about it this way if you use rifle your gonna heal for higher amounts and generate alot of agro
but you use transference and you generate alot of agro anyway no matter what weapon you use
and i dont know about any one else but ive been running into alot of pretty stupid people lately that cant tank or they rush in so im having to spam empathy and transference and i become a agro machine (mind you im using the lvl 25 plat pistol)

so either way your get alot of agro and heal just as well so you might as well protect yourself a little bit better so you can protect everyone else

[Raulur]

I use shield + heavy pistol + damage imlant. Does more Base damage than gloves + armor imlant, and has more armor. As far as skill damage, I believe the weapon speed gives a different skill modifier just like PL. So most weapons of the same quality and level have almost (if not) identical skill damage, at least so far. Usually the only difference is based on which boosts int more. That being said, I do wish Black Widow added int instead of dex.

I'm guessing that this game is like PL, where dps was good until around level 30. After that you wanted base damage, because of how enemy armor is taken into account.

[GigaBits]

@raulur I too use the damage implant as compensation for the shield, forgot to mention it before. Your assessment/conclusions were the same as mine =)

Aside from that the black widow looks to have been designed for the op going with a shield to average their damage and dps back out and make it a viable option over the decimators(thats the purple op dual pistols unless I am mistaken). I am not even going to hypothesize(sp!) If that is a good option or not =) Anyway, the incinerater is the purple I'm going with b/c of int mainly.
EDIT: I was mistaken they are deatomizers

[Hullukko]

I think many of you seem to forget that the support role that engineer plays is based mainly on empathy and transferance. Those two skill pack the most bunch with a weapon that provides most dps. An engineer is not his most supportive with a shield and pistol, au contraire. Healing power is maximized by eagle eye implant and a rifle, to say otherwise is just not backed up by numbers. And since that also maximizes the damage infliction, a supporting factor in its own right, I don't see the need for the shield. A skilled level 30 engineer has no problems without a shield outside of director's chamber.

EDIT: Based on data that I just collected. What I said above is not entirely correct. Black Widow + shield combination would seem to fall only 1.4 damage short from Atomic Dispenser per hit, dps in reality against the TV-headed-guy in the "Wasted" was considerably better with the Widow than the Dispenser. There is no explanation yet why a weapon with 4..8 smaller base damage gets only 1.4 less damage through. The 28 limited shield gives an int boost and the armor effect would appear to be non-linear, but there might be other factors at play, too. Healing power with the Widow was smaller as anticipated, but again the difference was only about 1.2 (out of some 84 average). I'll post the results in a new thread, but first I must to do the same thing with the Incinerator, too, because the widow did so well.

[Hullukko]

As far as skill damage, I believe the weapon speed gives a different skill modifier just like PL. So most weapons of the same quality and level have almost (if not) identical skill damage, at least so far. Usually the only difference is based on which boosts int more.

Where do you get this stuff?
Not true and not true for PL either. The weapon speed (or type) would appear to be a factor, yes, as it was in PL, but it's significance is very small and wholly undetermined. The dominant effect comes from weapon base damage which is considerably different for different weapons even of same quality and level. Think of pistols and rifles or wand and staffs.

I calculated earlier with various engineer weapons and the weapon minimum damage (in PL) is most dominant factor in determining skill damage. Claws healed considerably less than rifles. So did pistols. Heavy pistols have reasonable base damage in SL and aren't that far from rifles, but still worse.

What can be said, roughly, is that weapons with similar base damage have similar effect on skill damage. But comparing pistols and rifles when it comes to skill damage, is a little like comparing, well, pistols and rifles.

I'm guessing that this game is like PL, where dps was good until around level 30. After that you wanted base damage, because of how enemy armor is taken into account

Well, this is correct.

[Teddyache]

Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but there seems to be a positive correlation in SL (based on the numbers in other threads about armor/protection) between armor effectiveness and enemy damage. In other words, the harder a mob hits, the more effective player armor becomes. If this turns out to be true, the heavy pistol with shield combo may turn out to be a good way to go as levels get harder. Also, if a heavy pistol gives only a small drop off in base/skill damage from a rifle, then that may change my opinion overall, but they key word here is "small"... I'll have to try this for myself now.

[sickside]

I think many of you seem to forget that the support role that engineer plays is based mainly on empathy and transferance. Those two skill pack the most bunch with a weapon that provides most dps. An engineer is not his most supportive with a shield and pistol, au contraire. Healing power is maximized by eagle eye implant and a rifle, to say otherwise is just not backed up by numbers. And since that also maximizes the damage infliction, a supporting factor in its own right, I don't see the need for the shield. A skilled level 30 engineer has no problems without a shield outside of director's chamber.

if you use eagle eye implant and rifle you might be able to heal like no other but you make it rougher on commandos because you keep stealing their agro you need a happy medium

[Raulur]

Hullukko, it is well documented that different weapon types in PL had different skill damage modifiers. Ever see birds still laying waste to mobs with talon/wing combo by spamming skills? That is because they didn't lose much skill damage. Auto attack damage was much lower, and thats why most of those birds switched to a bow at bosses.

In SL, of course the plat rifles do more skill damage. They are premium weapons, and do higher damage most of the time than dropped rifles. Compare skill damage with dropped weapons of various types and same level, and you will find that skill damage is very close if not the same.

[Breadkeeper]

Also Dont forget, and im at work without my sl in front of me, but i do believe that you get more stats ala hit/crit/mana/health with the pistol/shield build.

[Hullukko]

Hullukko, it is well documented that different weapon types in PL had different skill damage modifiers. Ever see birds still laying waste to mobs with talon/wing combo by spamming skills? That is because they didn't lose much skill damage. Auto attack damage was much lower, and thats why most of those birds switched to a bow at bosses.

They have different modifiers, yes, slightly, but the base damage is more dominant. Two-handed as opposed to one handeds didn't give as big a boost as their base damage would indicate, but sure as hell they yielded more on the skill side (speaking of mages and pallies here), whether they were worth it is another matter, mostly dependent on the need of extra armor. Things are different in SL where the armor is less crucial. In ao3 I mostly used the glowstick+doll and in bs I started with the wand+bracer but as I got better and the mega staff set got its bonus the staff ruled hands down.

And I've done that research, collected a hefty amount of data for mages (and some for engineers, too). And like I said, weapon speed (or type in general) is a factor, undisclosed and not fully determined afaik, but less dominant than the base damage.

Your anecdote about birds. Well, in balefort birds needed armor. How many death talons (as opposed to shotguns) did you see in ao3? They did lose skill damage, plenty of it. They didn't lose directly the amount of base damage delta, but to say "So most weapons of the same quality and level have almost (if not) identical skill damage" is nonsense, in both games. (cant' speak for nuri's weaponry though)

In PL, and I'm talking about mages especially because that's closest to engineers and most influenced by spell damage, it was always about damage vs armor dilemma. The staff or wand question was answered with what you can survive with, but as for which deals most damage, well it was never even a close call. For a pure int 56 mega gear wand/staff difference was about 10% in spell damage.

In SL, of course the plat rifles do more skill damage. They are premium weapons, and do higher damage most of the time than dropped rifles. Compare skill damage with dropped weapons of various types and same level, and you will find that skill damage is very close if not the same.

I have compared. In SL, especially now with the new gear, the difference is smaller, but still large.
And it most certainly is not. It correlates on the base damage.

50 heals with 30 pure int wearing custom atomites, eagle eye and Atomic Dispenser: Average tick was 84.4.
50 heals with 30 pure int wearing custom atomites, eagle eye and Incinerator (+ 28 lim shield): Average tick was 80.5.
50 heals with 30 pure int wearing custom atomites, eagle eye and Bionic Crushers: Average tick was 80.17.
(for the record, the tick ranges are in accordance with those results)

Ok, I was expecting more. The differences were more bigger when I compared the sunwalker gear. But it's still 4-5 %. Well is that a lot? I dunno, but since it's about the same effect as eagle eye, I'd say calling it "close if not the same" ludicrous.

But here's the interesting bit:
50 heals with 30 pure int wearing custom atomites, eagle eye and Black Widow (+ 28 lim shield): Average tick was 83.26.

Now, that is more than I expected. I always thought the black widow seemed to have reasonable stats, and I used it in my director outfit. But the Widow accompanied with the int boost from the shield gave a somewhat surprising result.

I'll post more on this topic soon, because I also did damage infliction tests and damage intake tests. And as I went out to prove that the rifles rule, it turned out they no longer do and I ran yesterday with the Widow and 28lim shield exclusively.

[Raulur]

I'd call 4-5% "close if not the same", but maybe that's just me. Anyway, it is interesting that the dex weapons have slightly stronger heals than the int weapons. I was planning on using a Black Widow and shield anyway, but that was just because it is the highest base damage pistol. I picked up an Incinerator just for testing after I finish off lvl 30, but by looking at it I doubt I would use it much.

[IBNobody]

I have compared. In SL, especially now with the new gear, the difference is smaller, but still large.
And it most certainly is not. It correlates on the base damage.

50 heals with 30 pure int wearing custom atomites, eagle eye and Atomic Dispenser: Average tick was 84.4.
50 heals with 30 pure int wearing custom atomites, eagle eye and Incinerator (+ 28 lim shield): Average tick was 80.5.
50 heals with 30 pure int wearing custom atomites, eagle eye and Bionic Crushers: Average tick was 80.17.
(for the record, the tick ranges are in accordance with those results)

Ok, I was expecting more. The differences were more bigger when I compared the sunwalker gear. But it's still 4-5 %. Well is that a lot? I dunno, but since it's about the same effect as eagle eye, I'd say calling it "close if not the same" ludicrous.

But here's the interesting bit:
50 heals with 30 pure int wearing custom atomites, eagle eye and Black Widow (+ 28 lim shield): Average tick was 83.26.

Now, that is more than I expected. I always thought the black widow seemed to have reasonable stats, and I used it in my director outfit. But the Widow accompanied with the int boost from the shield gave a somewhat surprising result.

I'll post more on this topic soon, because I also did damage infliction tests and damage intake tests. And as I went out to prove that the rifles rule, it turned out they no longer do and I ran yesterday with the Widow and 28lim shield exclusively.

You've seen my Empathy post. What was your healing spread for the Dispenser versus the Black Widow?