The real problem with PvP

[Bazinga!]

You are saying each class has its own role, right? So mages role is to dodge? As you supported having equal dodge on all items (dex-str-int)

What I said:

And since you brought up dodge, the issue with 80 PvP is that all classes have the same dodge.

Do you even read brah?

[Mothwing]

But at the same time if Pallies were the best, then obviously most people would be Pallies and that one mage in the other team would most likely be a pally as well. Keeping that in mind, I would say that the one bird in that team would be an advantage rather than the brake.

Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. You're initial argument when you posted this thread was that the imbalance on the game isn't so much the gear but the team aspect. You kind of contradicted that here. If I'm on a team that has amazing chemistry and teamwork that is comfortable with a str bear, int mage, and dex bird that goes up against a pally, str bear, and dex bird that has little to no teamwork, the team with the pally will almost always win if the pally has half a brain. That's the point I'm trying to make, gear>teamwork in this game. Almost always. I've been playing with most of my friends for maybe 4, 5 years now. We all know how each other plays and we all have great teamwork. Yet we are still vulnerable to full teams of cheap gear. That's why Fam was so relevant during 77 and I guess now 80. All they do is say; "ok everyone! Time to switch your build to whatever the meta is!" Hence their guild full of pallies and bears at 77 and now pure mages at 80. On the other hand, players from RM, Resto, Unity, etc haven't GENERALLY changed their builds in a long time. Ghost has been an int mage forever. Dollo has been a bird forever. Glad has been a bear forever, etc etc.

Your last paragraph is just confusing to me. If you're centering your argument around teamwork, you can't claim that the game never allows for teams to be the same. Teamwork doesn't just show up out of nowhere, you have to play with each other and get used to fighting with the same 3 players over and over. For the game to not allow that just contradicts your point.

And you contradict yourself again. If there's a so called "OP team", shouldn't they be unbeatable in your context? If teamwork truly does trump stats, then there should never be a team that can match with the top team. The only way that would be possible if what you're claiming isn't true, is indeed true; that stats have a significant impact (they do!) on PvP and can cause good teams to lose to pure bs such as dodge.

[Bazinga!]

I'm not contradicting myself. Maybe the way I put it made it seem like I did.

I never mentioned that teamwork trumps stats; in fact my point of view had nothing to do with teamwork or stats. I think this is the best way to explain how I'm thinking:

Think of it like a rock-paper-scissors game. Rock beats scissors, scissors beat paper and paper beats rock. Now replace rock, paper and scissors with different combinations of teams (and I'm assuming that all these teams are playing their best, so the factor of skill doesn't apply here). There is always one team that can beat the other. But in this case there are a lot more combinations of teams, more like a rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock game .

With less number of players, its more like a rock-scissors game, where one team always beats the other. With more number of players, there are more possibilities.

Actually when I look back at my own post, the paragraph that you quoted doesn't make too much sense so if you're confused then I totally get it.

[Waug]

What I said:



Do you even read brah?

So why are you against all set dodge nerf in the first place?

[Waug]

I'm not contradicting myself. Maybe the way I put it made it seem like I did.

I never mentioned that teamwork trumps stats; in fact my point of view had nothing to do with teamwork or stats. I think this is the best way to explain how I'm thinking:

Think of it like a rock-paper-scissors game. Rock beats scissors, scissors beat paper and paper beats rock. Now replace rock, paper and scissors with different combinations of teams (and I'm assuming that all these teams are playing their best, so the factor of skill doesn't apply here). There is always one team that can beat the other. But in this case there are a lot more combinations of teams, more like a rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock game .

With less number of players, its more like a rock-scissors game, where one team always beats the other. With more number of players, there are more possibilities.

Actually when I look back at my own post, the paragraph that you quoted doesn't make too much sense so if you're confused then I totally get it.

Why don't you realize one simple fact, nobody would play as paper then, neither anybody would want paper in their game, only it would work on hosted tourny or friendly matches.

You're just trying to project FFA as excuse to justify PvP disbalance.

P.s - Also let me explain basics to u. IN FFA NO CLASSES MEANT TO BE WEAK COMPARE TO OTHER, that's pretty wrong conception you have over there, every class meant to have some specific advantages and disadvantages not weak or strong as a whole.

[iceQueen69]

Stop trying to fix the game, and fix yourselves. You're all not as good as me, because if you were you'd know that you can beat anyone with anything.

Gladiator out.

[Bazinga!]

Omg I give up on Waug....

[Burningdex]

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...team-mechanics

i agree, endgame is a broken, gesr and luck based mess. But as much as i hate to say it, no mather how hard we try, nothing is going to change. Even after countless suggestions by most active forumers, nothing has changed.. Can we all just agree to disagree and leave the suggestions for another time? The Devs arent going to fix anything for a long
time (if at all)

ps: can you all get off your ego's not a good look
for any of you

[Waug]

Stop trying to fix the game, and fix yourselves. You're all not as good as me, because if you were you'd know that you can beat anyone with anything.

Gladiator out.

Yes yes, in ur dream xD

[Bazinga!]

I made some changes to the post based on all the comments. Still sticking to my ideology, just adding some necessary information.

[Sheugokin]

I couldn't find such statement of mine anywhere, could u find it for me? Then we can talk about it.lol

BTW, this is not a discussion between go n ffa system

The next time you are IG, I can screenshot it for you when you complain about it. I don't think you can deny that at one point you claimed that many mages "hide more than <Family>"


Also I want to address the entire dodge issue:

So if we were to significantly repress the dodge percentage then what we will get with the current state of the damages we deal is even more extreme button-mashing.
It becomes who deals the most damage first which brings us back to the Fiery vs Fiery mage fights: literally drain then fire. Dead. That also isn't fun at all.

To an extent, dodge does make some fights more fun. TO AN EXTENT. Without dodge, mages, for example, would soon find the combo maximizing healing timing and nuking timing. Eventually, we come back to the routine combos and then it becomes boring.

So what does this call for then? More HP, less damage? That is essentially saying we should nerf all the important stats (DMG, Dodge, Spell Damage, Crit). I don't think that's reasonable IMO, which brings me to the conclusion:

There is no winning. (Sorry I'm kinda a pessimist but there is a fine line between pessimism and realism )

[Waug]

The next time you are IG, I can screenshot it for you when you complain about it. I don't think you can deny that at one point you claimed that many mages "hide more than <Family>"


Also I want to address the entire dodge issue:

So if we were to significantly repress the dodge percentage then what we will get with the current state of the damages we deal is even more extreme button-mashing.
It becomes who deals the most damage first which brings us back to the Fiery vs Fiery mage fights: literally drain then fire. Dead. That also isn't fun at all.

To an extent, dodge does make some fights more fun. TO AN EXTENT. Without dodge, mages, for example, would soon find the combo maximizing healing timing and nuking timing. Eventually, we come back to the routine combos and then it becomes boring.

So what does this call for then? More HP, less damage? That is essentially saying we should nerf all the important stats (DMG, Dodge, Spell Damage, Crit). I don't think that's reasonable IMO, which brings me to the conclusion:

There is no winning. (Sorry I'm kinda a pessimist but there is a fine line between pessimism and realism )

Lol, now as you could not found such statement here, you're now referring IG, But as you projected ur words, it seemed ur talked about this thread. -

@Waug- I just find your statement very hypocritical

Now as for in game, I don't even bother to say something LOGICAL, I prefer forum for this, BECAUSE what ever the logic is, 'cry' is the actual answer from everyone, game is perfect place to troll but less talk on fights n action.

Although, I won't derail the main topic here and we'll discuss about treeing later.

Now, the more and more you guys talking, ya clearing it out your mentality about the class mage and it seems mage is the epi center of everything, you can't deny it after saying all those things, ofc mages OP, ofc 90% endgame community play with mages, so ofc ur blind love to the class is justified.

Here's the factual part, when I suggested dodge nerf -

1> I didn't even mentioned about opness of any particular class.

2> Universal endgame set dodge nerf from all Endgame items, means DODGE NERF from DEX and STR too, not even asked to cut more dodge from int.

3> Bird & bears dodges too, bear should dodge but dodging close to 100 couldn't be justified.

4> I referred armor as replacement of dodge that means when dodge is nerfed, armor should be added to prevent 2 hit kills. The hypocritical part is 1h kill do exist in game, but u ignore that because mages don't get that but mages have extreme damge.

Open up ur minds, don't be so much narrow minded. Dodge has been the best excuse of so called old gen being the enemy of skill, has been stated on forums and in games extreme amount of times, but how funny it is, even all those ppls support that dodge now for sake of argument and more important to protect the unskillfull opness, even though its not attact on mages and their opness.

#ShhhhaaaeeiimONcomuniti
And don't provoke me to stat and prove and make (hypo) nerf mages. Thx.

[humiiii]

Very interesting thread. I read everything and to sumarize, I'd say that...Waug writes a lot

[iceQueen69]

Very interesting thread. I read everything and to sumarize, I'd say that...Waug writes a lot

Yes, but I got the most rep per word written and thus my words are the most valuable in this thread.

[Burningdex]

Yes, but I got the most rep per word written and thus my words are the most valuable in this thread.

Just cracked up reading that, ily

[Sheugokin]

Lol, now as you could not found such statement here, you're now referring IG, But as you projected ur words, it seemed ur talked about this thread. -



Now as for in game, I don't even bother to say something LOGICAL, I prefer forum for this, BECAUSE what ever the logic is, 'cry' is the actual answer from everyone, game is perfect place to troll but less talk on fights n action.

Although, I won't derail the main topic here and we'll discuss about treeing later.

Now, the more and more you guys talking, ya clearing it out your mentality about the class mage and it seems mage is the epi center of everything, you can't deny it after saying all those things, ofc mages OP, ofc 90% endgame community play with mages, so ofc ur blind love to the class is justified.

Here's the factual part, when I suggested dodge nerf -

1> I didn't even mentioned about opness of any particular class.

2> Universal endgame set dodge nerf from all Endgame items, means DODGE NERF from DEX and STR too, not even asked to cut more dodge from int.

3> Bird & bears dodges too, bear should dodge but dodging close to 100 couldn't be justified.

4> I referred armor as replacement of dodge that means when dodge is nerfed, armor should be added to prevent 2 hit kills. The hypocritical part is 1h kill do exist in game, but u ignore that because mages don't get that but mages have extreme damge.

Open up ur minds, don't be so much narrow minded. Dodge has been the best excuse of so called old gen being the enemy of skill, has been stated on forums and in games extreme amount of times, but how funny it is, even all those ppls support that dodge now for sake of argument and more important to protect the unskillfull opness, even though its not attact on mages and their opness.

#ShhhhaaaeeiimONcomuniti
And don't provoke me to stat and prove and make (hypo) nerf mages. Thx.

Waug I don't know where you learned English, but certainly in the United States, we don't write like that. In fact, I can safely assume that English is not grammatically written in the way you currently are writing in. It is beyond confusing with the incorrect use of vocabulary and the random punctuation marks. In addition your chain of thought in a sentences interrupts another chain of thought and I just can't follow you. Can you please either use simpler sentences or write more logically? There is no need for flowery language or complex syntax if you cannot utilize them in a correct manner; in fact, it may detract from your overall message.

I simply cannot understand you to offer my two cents on your critique.

And for the little portion that I did understand, I only play mage: that does not mean I do not see the perspective from the other classes in particular bears and birds. I understand mages are OP at the moment; I don't believe I ever denied that fact, and if I did, I stand corrected. Furthermore, let's travel down memory lane when there were times where bears one shotted both mages and birds during the 76 and 77 cap. Don't you think it's a little fitting for mages and birds to have their chance (birds haven't gotten there yet...poor birdies) in OPness?

Waug, I can assure you one thing: mages still need skill to excel in FFA situations. I will argue anyone on that fact.

The most efficient way to weed out the good from the bad mages is to place them in a CTF game with balanced team; not through the 1v1 "Go"-system.

[Waug]

In one sentence, you ingroned the points because as usual those points r so much logically correct that you don't have any logical point against it, and this time poor English is the excuse

I've learned English from pl, you guys could not teach me well I see.

[Burningdex]

In one sentence, you ingroned the points because as usual those points r so much logically correct that you don't have any logical point against it, and this time poor English is the excuse

I've learned English from pl, you guys could not teach me well I see.

If you actually learnt english from a 6year old phone game, i
would legitimately be impressed

[KingFu]

i think pvp is good but it needs fixing

first i think they should remove dodge and replace it with a new stat called freeze. freeze will prevent ur character from doing anything until you click the screen 10 times. freeze will be a %. this would be good because freeze would take out some of the luck of dodge but also still have some. freeze would also add skill mixed with luck bc if you get lucky to freeze other guy it still requires skill to click screen fast. like how lonearcher used ot be good.

the other thing is to remove vanities from pvp. vanities show wealth of players either in game or irl. bc of that vaniites create different social classes in pvp. watch join pvp game with no vanity u get rushed 10 times out of 10 times. removing vanities means everyone is on an equal playing field. some may say this is communist pvp but i think it'd help make more fun for everyone.

also make everyone have same skills. add beckon stomp rage and iron blood from bear fire lightning mana shield and rev from mage and repulse root blast and focus from bird. ignore rhino and fox bc no one plays those. now everyone has same skills and basicly have one class like dl which everyone knows is best sts game. now everyone is equal with same skills and no fancy vanity.

also remove trees bc screw foliage.

go pl go

[XghostzX]

i think pvp is good but it needs fixing

first i think they should remove dodge and replace it with a new stat called freeze. freeze will prevent ur character from doing anything until you click the screen 10 times. freeze will be a %. this would be good because freeze would take out some of the luck of dodge but also still have some. freeze would also add skill mixed with luck bc if you get lucky to freeze other guy it still requires skill to click screen fast. like how lonearcher used ot be good.

the other thing is to remove vanities from pvp. vanities show wealth of players either in game or irl. bc of that vaniites create different social classes in pvp. watch join pvp game with no vanity u get rushed 10 times out of 10 times. removing vanities means everyone is on an equal playing field. some may say this is communist pvp but i think it'd help make more fun for everyone.

also make everyone have same skills. add beckon stomp rage and iron blood from bear fire lightning mana shield and rev from mage and repulse root blast and focus from bird. ignore rhino and fox bc no one plays those. now everyone has same skills and basicly have one class like dl which everyone knows is best sts game. now everyone is equal with same skills and no fancy vanity.

also remove trees bc screw foliage.

go pl go

I gave u a thx and thumbs up +100