The real problem with PvP

[Bazinga!]

I'm making this thread because there are so many threads about the imbalance in PvP but in my opinion, most of them are missing the point. And it is not like I haven't made one of these before. In my frustration, even I have failed to see the actual problem. I recently looked at OPest's thread about nerfing dodge, which is a good idea if done appropriately. But the total elimination of dodge as he mentioned is something that will cause a lot of problems the way I look at it.

If you think about the PvP arenas, they aren't called 'Team Deathmatch' for no reason. They are meant for 3 v 3 FFAs. If you look back, there were relatively less (and I'm not saying there weren't any) posts about PvP imbalance before the 76 cap. Rather than talking about how one class was unfair, people talked about the best way to counteract that class. It was only after the 76 cap that there was an increase in the number of posts regarding PvP imbalance. So what was different before and after the 76 cap?

Before the 76 cap, the game got regular updates and expansions. There were enough people to make at least 4 full PvP games at level cap. When one player left, another one came in almost immediately. There were enough players to have a full fledged FFA match.

The 76 cap was the last expansion for the next 2.5 years. STS started drifting away from PL and so did players, naturally. PvP became more dependent on the go system and more stupid rules like 'no running' and 'no using trees' came into the picture. I mean come on, I'm sure STS put trees there for the sole purpose of hiding.

When you exclude movement, hiding and team play, it all boils down to comparing stats. And in the 76 cap, bears had more than 100 hit, the most armour and the most dodge out of all classes and therefore they dominated (or rather the STR class in general dominated). But the fact is that bears are supposed to be the tank in a 3 v 3 match and mages and birds could run around and hide if they wanted, not run straight into the battle.

All in all, the main problem is the domination of the GO system, as a result of a declining player base.

If there is one thing I wish STS could have done to sort PvP imbalance out, it is to introduce different types of sets. For example, when STS created MAGOR / ARZAC / WARAT, they did it so that the new items became better than the current sets, not because they could be used in a strategically different manner.
This type of item creation can be seen at every level starting from 61. And forget about item creation; after 66 there was literally only one set to wear for each class. Variety in gear can be found in lower levels like 15 but still not to the extent that it should be varied. Unfortunately I'm not a fan of playing with only four skills, other wise I would have been playing AL right now, not writing this post .

Conclusion:
After reading through all the posts and thoughts on this topic again, I realise that the problem of statistical imbalances cannot be completely avoided, although I would still say that it can be significantly reduced by having team FFAs, which is the way it is supposed to be, instead of turn by turn individual battles.

I've bolded out the changes I made. I hope this answers some of the arguments made.

[ababioka]

I like the point you made about treeing and running.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Waug]

Your whole analogy comes down to the point -

All in all, the main problem is the declining player base. .........[B]

and

Before the 76 cap, the game got regular updates and expansions. There were enough people to make at least 4 full PvP games at level cap. When one player left, another one came in almost immediately. There were enough players to have a full fledged FFA match. ...PvP became more dependent on the go system and more stupid rules like 'no running' and 'no using trees' came into the picture.

But which is actually not true, PvP areana was mostly 'Go' dependent before L76 cap INFECT lately after some guilds started to fight each other on see, PvP arena was facing more without 'go' fight, PvP arena never changed the way you tried to say since the very first day I started to pvp, It wasn't the matter that the arena is full or not, there are many games at once or not, mostly it's 1-1 'go'. At the present time too, it's not the arena is empty (other than the USA sleep time) I don't know, from where this statements comes from, Probably from those who don't do endgame?

Not only that, the tendency of CTF games even wasn't change much since long - Arena mostly 1-1 'go' other than guild fight now, and back then before L76 cap & CTF mages mostly 3-3 CTF same as before.

Now, Let's come to the important point. Let me remind you, L76 was inFamous for OPness of Phoenix Birds, latter when Birds were nerfed hard, Bears were overpowered, you probbaly forgot the phase when at this time Lust bears used to 2 hit kills int mages, now if I pust the analogy of yours, just what you said -

And in the 76 cap, bears had more than 100 hit, the most armour and the most dodge out of all classes and therefore they dominated (or rather the STR class in general dominated). But the fact is that bears are supposed to be the tank in a 3 v 3 match and mages and birds could run around and hide if they wanted, not run straight into the battle.

This would be the worst analogy TBH, Imagine a 3 bear team fighting 3 mage team, It didn't matter that mages go hide behind trees all the time or not they would get rekt hard. Fact is, if something is OP that doesn't only effect 1vs1, that effects 3vs3 too. I don't need to say much and explain small details here.

Dodge is not enemy of any particular class, it's enemy of skill. To an extent dodge is ok, because it's part of PL but when most of the skills are being dodged, it's something must be done, Also I didn't talked about total dodge nerf, I talked about total dodge nerf from endgame items.

[Bazinga!]

This would be the worst analogy TBH, Imagine a 3 bear team fighting 3 mage team, It didn't matter that mages go hide behind trees all the time or not they would get rekt hard. Fact is, if something is OP that doesn't only effect 1vs1, that effects 3vs3 too. I don't need to say much and explain small details here.

I knew that someone would comment about this eventually, but I have to say, you're still missing the whole point. You yourself said that my whole post comes down to the point that the player base has declined too much.

Its not about comparing one class to another, but rather comparing the efficiency of one team to another. In a 1 v 1 go system, the individually stronger class would win. In a 3 v 3 Team Deathmatch, the better team would win. Comparing 3 bears to 3 mages is the same as comparing a bear to a mage.

Now lets see what happens in the two situations, and I'm assuming that we're in the 76 cap here:

1) There is a good player base and an active endgame community.
Two of the INT mages (supposing that they know what they are doing) would leave and be replaced by any other class like a STR mage / bear or a bird. Meanwhile those two INT mages join a different game.

2) The player base is small and there aren't too many games.
All of the INT mages are forced to stay in that game if they want to PvP. One of them leaves. There is no one to replace him at least for the next 5 minutes. The other two mages leave as well.

[Waug]

I knew that someone would comment about this eventually, but I have to say, you're still missing the whole point. You yourself said that my whole post comes down to the point that the player base has declined too much.

Its not about comparing one class to another, but rather comparing the efficiency of one team to another. In a 1 v 1 go system, the individually stronger class would win. In a 3 v 3 Team Deathmatch, the better team would win. Comparing 3 bears to 3 mages is the same as comparing a bear to a mage.

Now lets see what happens in the two situations, and I'm assuming that we're in the 76 cap here:

1) There is a good player base and an active endgame community.
Two of the INT mages (supposing that they know what they are doing) would leave and be replaced by any other class like a STR mage / bear or a bird. Meanwhile those two INT mages join a different game.

2) The player base is small and there aren't too many games.
All of the INT mages are forced to stay in that game if they want to PvP. One of them leaves. There is no one to replace him at least for the next 5 minutes. The other two mages leave as well.

None force to play anything, anybody simply leave arena in adverse situations.

The situations you're referring are more like pen and paper and far from reality. DO YOU REALIZE That fair team matches only limited to tourney and some friendly matches.

It's kinda excuse that, PvP should not be balanced because get op classes in ur team and do 3vs3 FFA. Top of that balanacing dodge is balance PvP as whole not just to balance out any specific class, which the point you totally missed actually.

[Bazinga!]

None force to play anything, anybody simply leave arena in adverse situations.

The situations you're referring are more like pen and paper and far from reality. DO YOU REALIZE That fair matches only limited to tourney and some friendly matches.

It's kinda excuse that, PvP should not be balanced because get op classes in ur team and do PvP. Top of that balanacing dodge is balance PvP as whole not just to balance out any specific class, which the point you totally missed actually.

There are no fair matches, it's just that with more players available, it's easier to find teams that can match up. There's one line that conveys my message if anyone's too lazy to read.

And since you brought up dodge, the issue with 80 PvP is that all classes have the same dodge. Again, this was done (probably) to ensure that any one class can survive in a 1 v 1 match. Why make TDMs then? The fact that one player can damage all three players on the other team with one skill shows that we are meant to have FFAs.

[Waug]

There are no fair matches, it's just that with more players available, it's easier to find teams that can match up. There's one line that conveys my message if anyone's too lazy to read.

And since you brought up dodge, the issue with 80 PvP is that all classes have the same dodge. Again, this was done (probably) to ensure that any one class can survive in a 1 v 1 match. Why make TDMs then? The fact that one player can damage all three players on the other team with one skill shows that we are meant to have FFAs.

Read the bold line, should I say first get proper knowledge and then stat ur facts? All classes don't have same dodge BUT all endgame special elites have same dodge,

The funny fact is, I'm not asking to nerf dodge for any specific item, rather from all (str-int-dex) you missed it as well.

Also the interesting fact is, when most of the skill get dodged, actually any skill full player should not support this neither all those oldies supported this in past, you talk about what pl pvp meant to be, but dont realize it? it favour those ppls who rely on some hits(does not matter, which one got dodged) and op enough to take down the opponent, how even so called skillfull player support dodge just because they rely on dodges.

Already told you, dodge nerfing is more than balancing class, first think about it, try to understand and stat ur logics, I'll be there to clear it out.

[HeyitsTubs]

birds should be calibrated to be 'better' at low lvl pvp.

[Bazinga!]

I would assume that you of all people would know that when I said dodge, I meant base dodge. Usually I can understand what you're trying to say, but I'm sorry this time I really have no idea. I'm sure you have some good points but if you could take the time to create them properly, it would only make your posts more understandable.

You've been trying to contradict everything I say, but all I can see after reading your posts is that you're still thinking from a perspective of a 1 v 1. Throughout the time you've been playing Pocket Legends, you have always preferred the FFA system over the go system and even went to the extent where you would handle 3 opponents alone. You did well for some time but now it isn't working, and for this reason I'm beginning to doubt the credibility of your posts, because you're complaining about dodge and at the same time you want to beat three players on your own. It seems like you want other classes to be so weak that it takes the whole team to give you competition. I'm sorry but that's not going to happen.

[Onepropally]

Make birds super dodgey, make int mages super buffy, the more buffs and heal the better, and make bears super tanky, each class needs their their advantages and disadvantages not equal amount of stats. That's just wrong

[ryanbemani1]

Of course, I am no expert really when it comes to stats and attributes in endgame pvp. I'd however say what kind of experiences I had with arzac talon set.
-Coming across full int magor mage: especially when 3pc, I find that they do incredible damage. And when I mean incredible, I mean zero chance for a bird to survive longer than a second unless it is a rare case of continuous lucky dodge which I will explain later. Also it's a 50/50 chance of destroying ms, which further means that if I get unlucky and I don't blast out the ms, the mage can throw everything at me and I'm dead that moment. So maybe to make it more fair from the mage's side, a slight dodge and damage nerf would equalise the chances of survival. To touch on the, "rare case of continuous lucky dodge," what I mean is that sometimes when I fail to destroy a mage's mana shield, and they fire everything at me, I end up dodging every single hit and skill and the tables turn, giving me my moment to attack. However this is rare and doesn't usually happen.
A full dex bird: Simply a slight dodge nerf would probably give better chance of hit. This can also become helpful for mages if that rare scenario happens.
A full str bear: Everything seems to be fine with full str and half str/half dex bears except maybe a slight damage nerf would mean birds can survive longer and escape situations when they are pulled in. Otherwise, if a bird does get pulled in by a bear and it is str, then I guess rip bird. With dex bears, I mean they can even do high amounts of damage from longer ranges so the slight damage buff as mentioned might be able to sort that out as well.

Sorry if all of the above is inaccurate. I mean, these are my sort of experiences as a bird but maybe if we could relate to it somehow, it can help buff the birds a little. Like I said, I am no expert at all when it comes to what should be buffed and what should be nerfed, but hopefully some of that information comes out true and something can be done about it. Otherwise the pros about this topic here are: waug, ghost, bazinga

[Sheugokin]

I have come out of of my forum hibernation.

I can agree with all of the above comments, but I think that there could be a healthy balance between the "Go" and the "FFA" play style in PvP.

If you want to use the "Go" system and the intended person does too, then fine. But always be aware that there will be those who DON'T want the go system. And respect that. What I don't want is teaming (because let's be honest who likes to be teamed.) or foul language.

@Waug- I just find your statement very hypocritical. Mages should hide but once they do you complain to the next dimension. In PvP you do the same, especially when I do that without buffs.

But not only you. WE ALL are hypocrites, I have complained about hiding, running, rushing, etc. That mentality needs to end but will it? I don't think so. Without pointing fingers at specific people, the majority of PvPers are all set on the "Go" system because PL has gotten to the point where fights are mostly luck. I can manage to fit my entire combo in 2 secs and yet can still lose to a equally-equipped mage with two skills. I didn't dodge but he/she did.

The "Go" system requires A LOT less skill that FFA. In CTF and true Team Deathmatch, each class has its own niche. Mages have to position them so strategically to weave in and out of the fights, nuke, heal, and revive. Sure, they are considered OP, but in FFA in which the fights are first balanced, it's all about who has the correct fighting style. Birds and bears, which I am totally trash at, have their own niches too, and since I do not specialize in them, I have no place in talking about them.

[Waug]

@Waug- I just find your statement very hypocritical. Mages should hide but once they do you complain to the next dimension. In PvP you do the same, especially when I do that without buffs.

.

I couldn't find such statement of mine anywhere, could u find it for me? Then we can talk about it.lol

BTW, this is not a discussion between go n ffa system

[XghostzX]

I couldn't find such statement of mine anywhere, could u find it for me? Then we can talk about it.lol

BTW, this is not a discussion between go n ffa system

1. In my last post I was never disagreeing with your stuff, I was merely stating my own opinion with no connection/relevance to yours. Please stop trying to act like the PL know-it-all and our savior.

2. You don't have to "find such statement" of yours to argue a point...

smh I can't communicate with this guy

[Sheugokin]

I couldn't find such statement of mine anywhere, could u find it for me? Then we can talk about it.lol

BTW, this is not a discussion between go n ffa system

The next time you are IG, I can screenshot it for you when you complain about it. I don't think you can deny that at one point you claimed that many mages "hide more than <Family>"


Also I want to address the entire dodge issue:

So if we were to significantly repress the dodge percentage then what we will get with the current state of the damages we deal is even more extreme button-mashing.
It becomes who deals the most damage first which brings us back to the Fiery vs Fiery mage fights: literally drain then fire. Dead. That also isn't fun at all.

To an extent, dodge does make some fights more fun. TO AN EXTENT. Without dodge, mages, for example, would soon find the combo maximizing healing timing and nuking timing. Eventually, we come back to the routine combos and then it becomes boring.

So what does this call for then? More HP, less damage? That is essentially saying we should nerf all the important stats (DMG, Dodge, Spell Damage, Crit). I don't think that's reasonable IMO, which brings me to the conclusion:

There is no winning. (Sorry I'm kinda a pessimist but there is a fine line between pessimism and realism )

[Waug]

The next time you are IG, I can screenshot it for you when you complain about it. I don't think you can deny that at one point you claimed that many mages "hide more than <Family>"


Also I want to address the entire dodge issue:

So if we were to significantly repress the dodge percentage then what we will get with the current state of the damages we deal is even more extreme button-mashing.
It becomes who deals the most damage first which brings us back to the Fiery vs Fiery mage fights: literally drain then fire. Dead. That also isn't fun at all.

To an extent, dodge does make some fights more fun. TO AN EXTENT. Without dodge, mages, for example, would soon find the combo maximizing healing timing and nuking timing. Eventually, we come back to the routine combos and then it becomes boring.

So what does this call for then? More HP, less damage? That is essentially saying we should nerf all the important stats (DMG, Dodge, Spell Damage, Crit). I don't think that's reasonable IMO, which brings me to the conclusion:

There is no winning. (Sorry I'm kinda a pessimist but there is a fine line between pessimism and realism )

Lol, now as you could not found such statement here, you're now referring IG, But as you projected ur words, it seemed ur talked about this thread. -

@Waug- I just find your statement very hypocritical

Now as for in game, I don't even bother to say something LOGICAL, I prefer forum for this, BECAUSE what ever the logic is, 'cry' is the actual answer from everyone, game is perfect place to troll but less talk on fights n action.

Although, I won't derail the main topic here and we'll discuss about treeing later.

Now, the more and more you guys talking, ya clearing it out your mentality about the class mage and it seems mage is the epi center of everything, you can't deny it after saying all those things, ofc mages OP, ofc 90% endgame community play with mages, so ofc ur blind love to the class is justified.

Here's the factual part, when I suggested dodge nerf -

1> I didn't even mentioned about opness of any particular class.

2> Universal endgame set dodge nerf from all Endgame items, means DODGE NERF from DEX and STR too, not even asked to cut more dodge from int.

3> Bird & bears dodges too, bear should dodge but dodging close to 100 couldn't be justified.

4> I referred armor as replacement of dodge that means when dodge is nerfed, armor should be added to prevent 2 hit kills. The hypocritical part is 1h kill do exist in game, but u ignore that because mages don't get that but mages have extreme damge.

Open up ur minds, don't be so much narrow minded. Dodge has been the best excuse of so called old gen being the enemy of skill, has been stated on forums and in games extreme amount of times, but how funny it is, even all those ppls support that dodge now for sake of argument and more important to protect the unskillfull opness, even though its not attact on mages and their opness.

#ShhhhaaaeeiimONcomuniti
And don't provoke me to stat and prove and make (hypo) nerf mages. Thx.

[Sheugokin]

Lol, now as you could not found such statement here, you're now referring IG, But as you projected ur words, it seemed ur talked about this thread. -



Now as for in game, I don't even bother to say something LOGICAL, I prefer forum for this, BECAUSE what ever the logic is, 'cry' is the actual answer from everyone, game is perfect place to troll but less talk on fights n action.

Although, I won't derail the main topic here and we'll discuss about treeing later.

Now, the more and more you guys talking, ya clearing it out your mentality about the class mage and it seems mage is the epi center of everything, you can't deny it after saying all those things, ofc mages OP, ofc 90% endgame community play with mages, so ofc ur blind love to the class is justified.

Here's the factual part, when I suggested dodge nerf -

1> I didn't even mentioned about opness of any particular class.

2> Universal endgame set dodge nerf from all Endgame items, means DODGE NERF from DEX and STR too, not even asked to cut more dodge from int.

3> Bird & bears dodges too, bear should dodge but dodging close to 100 couldn't be justified.

4> I referred armor as replacement of dodge that means when dodge is nerfed, armor should be added to prevent 2 hit kills. The hypocritical part is 1h kill do exist in game, but u ignore that because mages don't get that but mages have extreme damge.

Open up ur minds, don't be so much narrow minded. Dodge has been the best excuse of so called old gen being the enemy of skill, has been stated on forums and in games extreme amount of times, but how funny it is, even all those ppls support that dodge now for sake of argument and more important to protect the unskillfull opness, even though its not attact on mages and their opness.

#ShhhhaaaeeiimONcomuniti
And don't provoke me to stat and prove and make (hypo) nerf mages. Thx.

Waug I don't know where you learned English, but certainly in the United States, we don't write like that. In fact, I can safely assume that English is not grammatically written in the way you currently are writing in. It is beyond confusing with the incorrect use of vocabulary and the random punctuation marks. In addition your chain of thought in a sentences interrupts another chain of thought and I just can't follow you. Can you please either use simpler sentences or write more logically? There is no need for flowery language or complex syntax if you cannot utilize them in a correct manner; in fact, it may detract from your overall message.

I simply cannot understand you to offer my two cents on your critique.

And for the little portion that I did understand, I only play mage: that does not mean I do not see the perspective from the other classes in particular bears and birds. I understand mages are OP at the moment; I don't believe I ever denied that fact, and if I did, I stand corrected. Furthermore, let's travel down memory lane when there were times where bears one shotted both mages and birds during the 76 and 77 cap. Don't you think it's a little fitting for mages and birds to have their chance (birds haven't gotten there yet...poor birdies) in OPness?

Waug, I can assure you one thing: mages still need skill to excel in FFA situations. I will argue anyone on that fact.

The most efficient way to weed out the good from the bad mages is to place them in a CTF game with balanced team; not through the 1v1 "Go"-system.

[Bazinga!]

3> You're talking about & trying to support role-play on FFA and FFA mechanics itself, but then you're getting away from the fact that all classes should have their own unique role rather than 'everyone should dodge' WHICH IS TOTALLY AGAINST CLASSY TEAM BASED FFA MECHANISM this just simply proves that, you're trying to keep your OPness and using wrong logics in support.

After reading this, I can confirm that you have no idea about what I'm talking about. I've been saying that each class has its own role all along and that's why a 3 v 3 match is more preferable over a 1 v 1 match.

Also, I agree with Sheugokin's post. If people prefer the go system over the FFA system, that is totally fine, but there is absolutely nothing to complain about then, because they are putting themselves at a disadvantage by their own will. IMO, FFA (or 3 v 3s just in case Waug gets confused again) should be the predominant PvP style. I haven't thought about it before, but it is pretty interesting how over the years, the whole PL community has agreed to PvP by the go system; it's just against human nature o.o. I would have thought that there would be a whole bunch of players unwilling to play by the 'go' system.

#BringBackTDM

[Waug]

1. In my last post I was never disagreeing with your stuff, I was merely stating my own opinion with no connection/relevance to yours. Please stop trying to act like the PL know-it-all and our savior.

2. You don't have to "find such statement" of yours to argue a point...

smh I can't communicate with this guy

I've taken a sentence for analogy purpose, don't get confused.

Lol, don't mess up, I asked Sheug to find the statement he talked about, it has nothing to do with u.

After reading this, I can confirm that you have no idea about what I'm talking about. I've been saying that each class has its own role all along and that's why a 3 v 3 match is more preferable over a 1 v 1 match.

Don't get confused. Answer me a simple question.

You are saying each class has its own role, right? So mages role is to dodge? As you supported having equal dodge on all items (dex-str-int)

These two statements can't go together but contradict with each other . That's why I said you're trying to advocate for your op class rather than advocating for actual FFA mechanics, Which you tried to PRETEND always.

Moth has pointed out some really neutral and nice facts. You shoul read that carefully. Classes should be balanced to an extent (not totally possible) otherwise it does not matter its 1-1 or FFA, don't make FFA the excuse of not letting classes balanced.

LASTLY I'll repeat that I kept saying since beginning, I never asked to nerf dodges from INT only, nerfing dodge is necessary, dodging most of the hits can't be skillful PvP.

[Mothwing]

I generally agree, the community has lost sight of the teamwork aspect. It takes more skill to be a mage that can revive, buff, and heal correctly than it does to play 1v1. Anybody that disagrees with that just please stop reading my comment now so we can avoid useless arguments.

However wt the same time, if individual classes can't stand up alone against another, then the whole game kind of breaks down as a whole. The reason your post doesn't really work is because of metas. In an ideal world, teams would be restricted to only a bear, bird, and mage (which is what I was trying to do with the league that nobody bought into). But even back at 77 when there were significantly more players, a team of one bird, one mage, and one bear stands absolutely no chance against three pallies or three bears. It's just not possible because of stat differences. Pure int mages and dex birds did not deal out a proportional amount of damage relative to their armor, health, and dodge. A bear or pally should not be able to tank multiple combos and then kill you in 3 skills when they're not even using their auto attack. That's where there's an imbalance; the disadvantage of being a bear or pally is the lack of ranged damage...except that disadvantage doesn't exist at all because they have so much dodge and do so much skill damage.

This in turn breaks down the team aspect of the game, because individual players can completely turn the tide of a game without any support from their team. It basically comes down to who has the best bear or who has the best mage, which is unfortunate but the way it is and probably always will be.