A quick study in Pistol/Shield vs. Rifles and Gloves from an Engineers Perspective.

[Deathpunch]

I've seen some debate since the shields released on what is better to use. This discussion only extends to Engineers, as shields should not be used by coms or ops, imho. For the purposes of this discussion, only lvl 30 non-plat weapons were considered. I also assumed that a shield would be used with the pistol, as without it, why even use a pistol? I feel that the shield I use is the best choice for a pistol/shield Engi, the Limited Class VI Holo-Shield.

Just a note here, the summaries are my opinion, not fact, please don't take them as fact. Review the data I have presented and draw your own conclusions.

I would like to take a second and thank LelouchX, a guildmate of mine, for allowing me to borrow his Custom Atomite. Thanks, bud!

Check out Hullukko's post on dps and damage range effect on skill damage and compare some more. Thank you very much for this!

1. Full plat armor, 5% dodge implant

Black Widow vs. Bionic Crushers





When Bionic Crushers are equipped instead of Black Widow and Limited Class VI Holo-shield you:

LOSE:
-5 Str
-5 Dex
-4 Int
-2 Hit %
-15 Health
-1 Health Regen
-30 Mana
-3-6 damage
-134 Armor

GAIN:
+9 Dps

Hardly worth the trade there. A decent hit to max health and a big hit to mana for +9 dps isn't worth it.

WINNER: Black Widow


Black Widow vs. Atomic Disperser.





When equipped with the Atomic Disperser instead of Black Widow and Limited Class VI Holo-Shield, you:

LOSE:
-5 Str
-9 Int
-1 Hit%
-31 Health
-1 Health Regen
-36 Mana
-4 Dps
-134 Armor

GAIN:
+4-8 Dmg

Hmm, yeah, not worth the trade offs. An even bigger hit to health and mana make the damage increase seem paltry at best.

WINNER: Black Widow

Here, I'll compare apples to apples. Black Widow v. Incinerator. Generally, the Incinerator is looked at as a lesser pistol when compared to the Black Widow, but we shall see.





With the Incinerator equipped instead of the Black Widow you:

LOSE:
-5 Dex
-1 Hit%
-3-9 Dmg

GAIN:
+6 Int
+17 Health
+7 Mana
+4 DPS

Well, this is an eye-opener. Dex loss doesn't really mean anything here, though that is a decent hit to max damage, thus your skill performance. But, I believe that the health and mana increase make up partly for the loss in damage plus the increase in dps helps, too.

WINNER: Toss-up, depending on your build

Incinerator vs. Bionic Crushers





With Bionic Crushers equipped instead of Incinerator and Limited Class IV Holo-Shield, you:

LOSE:
-5 Str
-9 Int
-1 Hit%
-32 Health
-1 Health Regen
-37 Mana
-134 Armor

GAIN:
+0-5 Dmg
+5 Dps

Well, you gain a slight increase in max damage and dps, but no where near enough to make up for the health and mana loss.

WINNER: Incinerator

Incinerator vs. Atomic Disperser





When equipped with the Atomic Disperser instead of the Incinerator and Limited Class IV Holo-Shield, you:

LOSE:
-5 Str
-14 Int
-48 Health
-1 Health Regen
-43 Mana
-8 Dps
-134 Armor

GAIN:
+5 Dex
+7-19 Dmg

Dex gain doesn't mean anything here, either. But that and the damage increase vs. the major loss in health and mana doesn't even come close to making up for it.

WINNER: Incinerator

2. Standard Atomite gear, 5% dodge implant

Black Widow vs. Bionic Crushers





With the Bionic Crushers equipped instead of the Black Widow and Limited Class IV Holo-Shield you:

LOSE:
-5 STR
-4 INT
-3 Hit %
-15 Health
-30 Mana
-2-5 Dmg
-135 Armor

GAIN:
+9 dps

As I said with the Plat armor, the loss of the health and mana just isn't worth the increased dps. Also, for whatever reason, when the shield is removed with this armor, I lost 135 armor instead of 134. This was true across all combinations.

WINNER: Black Widow

Black Widow vs. Atomic Disperser





When equipped with the Atomic Disperser instead of the Black Widow and the Limited Class VI Holo-Shield you:

LOSE:
-5 STR
-9 INT
-2 Hit %
-31 Health
-36 Mana
-5 DPS
-135 Armor

GAIN:
+4-8 DMG

Large loss of health and mana for a bit of damage makes you a less effective Engineer.

WINNER: Black Widow

Black Widow vs. Incinerator





When equipped with the Incinerator instead of the Black Widow you:

LOSE:
-5 DEX
-1 Hit %
-3-11 DMG

GAIN:
+5 INT
+17 Health
+7 Mana
+4 DPS

Like with the plat gear, this one really depends on your build. If you are more combat focused, then take the Black Widow. If you run a more support oriented Engi, Incinerator would work.

WINNER: Toss up, again, depending on what you want to do.

Incinerator vs. Bionic Crushers





When equipped with the Bionic Crushers instead of the Incinerator and Limited Class VI Holo-Shield you:

LOSE:
-5 STR
-9 INT
-2 Hit %
-32 Health
-37 Mana
-135 Armor

GAIN:
+1-6 DMG
+5 DPS

Slightly more damage increase over the plat gear and DPS increase won't make up for the health, mana, and slight hit % loss.

WINNER: Incinerator

Incinerator vs. Atomic Disperser





With the Atomic Disperser equipped instead of the Incinerator and Limited Class VI Holo-Shield you:

LOSE:
-5 STR
-14 INT
-1 Hit %
-48 Health
-43 Mana
-9 DPS
-135 Armor

GAIN:
+5 DEX
+7-19 DMG

That's an awful lot of Health and mana to lose. Perhaps against a boss this would work, but against anything else, it isn't worth it.

WINNER: Incinerator

3. Custom Atomite, 5% dodge implant

Black Widow vs. Incinerator





With the Incinerator equipped instead of the Black Widow you:

LOSE:
-5 DEX
-1 Hit %
-3-9 DMG

GAIN:
+5 INT
+17 Health
+7 Mana
+5 DPS

Same as with the other two armor sets, depends on your build.

WINNER: Toss-up

Black Widow vs. Bionic Crushers





With the Bionic Crushers equipped instead of the Black Widow you:

LOSE:
-5 STR
-5 DEX
-4 INT
-3 Hit %
-15 Health
-29 Mana
-2-5 DMG
-135 Armor

GAIN:
+9 DPS

I just don't think the loss of enough mana to cast Empathy twice is worth the bump in DPS.

WINNER: Black Widow

Black Widow vs. Atomic Disperser





With the Atomic Disperser equipped instead of the Black Widow you:

LOSE:
-5 STR
-9 INT
-2 Hit %
-31 Health
-36 Mana
-5 DPS
-135 Armor

GAIN:
+4-8 DMG

Boss fight would be about the only reason I would suggest this, and that's just a maybe.

WINNER: Black Widow

Incinerator vs. Bionic Crushers





With the Bionic Crushers equipped instead of the Incinerator you:

LOSE:
-5 STR
-9 INT
-2 Hit %
-32 Health
-36 Mana
-135 Armor

GAIN:
+1-6 DMG
+5 DPS

Decent mana and health loss for a ok bump in damage and DPS is, in my opinion, not worth it.

WINNER: Incinerator

Incinerator vs. Atomic Disperser





With the Atomic Disperser equipped instead of the Incinerator you:

LOSE:
-5 STR
-14 INT
-1 Hit%
-48 Health
-43 Mana
-9 DPS
-135 Armor

GAIN:
+5 DEX
+7-19 DMG

Like before, this would be a good choice vs. a boss and maxing your heal ticks. In truth, though, you'll actually lose healing ability, as you lose 3 whole Empathy casts with that mana loss.

WINNER: Incinerator


In summary, with the current equipment available, a pistol/shield combo is the best set up for engineers in my opinion. I must admit that the Incinerator did not perform as poorly as I had expected. If you want to increase your health and mana, then it is an excellent choice. Actually, upon further review and though, I feel that the Incinerator paired with the Limited Class VI Holo-Shield may be the standard equipment for a basic Engineer. Yes, you'll take a hit to the amount of healing per tick, but you are half way to one more empathy cast.

After reviewing and testing with the Atomite gear, my opinion hasn't changed. I still feel that a pistol/shield combo is more effective for Engineers.

As you can clearly see, the different armor sets are not having much effect on your loss/gain stats. I had considered doing and average of health ticks with each weapon and armor set, as well as auto-attack averages and listing them in the comparisons, but I now feel that these comparisons are pretty much an exercise in futility and will be pretty much worthless once new gear drops. Perhaps I'll revisit this in the future, once the level cap and new gear has stabilized a bit more.

My final conclusion is that while there are situations where a rifle or gloves would be a better option, on the whole I believe that a pistol/shield combo is the best option for everyday use.

[krazii]

Good start. I think you should be looking at the Incinerator as the pistol (doesn't it give +int). Also, don't think health regen is that important to an engineer as you have heals. My thought's are that the pistol/shield combo is good for a pure healing defensive engineer, the gloves are good for an offensive engineer to run level with and the atomic disperser is good for the bosses (higher damage).

[Deathpunch]

Good start. I think you should be looking at the Incinerator as the pistol (doesn't it give +int). Also, don't think health regen is that important to an engineer as you have heals. My thought's are that the pistol/shield combo is good for a pure healing defensive engineer, the gloves are good for an offensive engineer to run level with and the atomic disperser is good for the bosses (higher damage).

Oh yeah, I forgot the Incinerator. It's generally considered the Rusted Pistol of the lvl 30's, but I'll see if I can pick one up cheap from the CS for testing purposes. Thanks!

EDIT: well, the incinerator isn't as bad as I thought.

[Kahlua]

As already stated, you shouldn't really be focusing so much on the health regen aspect when you have multiple skills to heal you. 2 hp/sec wont really make a huge different over 1hp/sec when you can heal 70ish per tick with empathy alone.

[Deathpunch]

OP updated with Incinerator comparisons.

[IBNobody]

1. I would argue against +1 health regen being a deciding factor. Engineers are a class that have access to heals all the time. An extra HP every second isn't noticeable.

2. The platinum armor for Engineers performs above and beyond the non-custom or even custom armor because of the dodge bonus.

[thewolf]

Shield increases armor

[Deathpunch]

1. I would argue against +1 health regen being a deciding factor. Engineers are a class that have access to heals all the time. An extra HP every second isn't noticeable.

Agreed, I edited my summaries somewhat to demphasize the health regen differences.

2. The platinum armor for Engineers performs above and beyond the non-custom or even custom armor because of the dodge bonus.

Indeed it does, but the dodge bonus has no effect on weapon performance from what I can tell. If it does, then it is applied evenly to all tested weapons.

Shield increases armor

Yes, it does. This wasn't in doubt, was it? Or are you suggesting that I shouldn't have included the shield in these comparisons? If so, that was the whole point of the thread, to compare pistol/shield combos against other options available for engineers.

[CanonicalKoi]

A very interesting set of comparisons, DP. It'll be interesting to see how things change as new gear (and new enemies) come along.

The one thing I don't understand (and I'm hoping someone can explain it) is *why* I need the extra dodge and/or armor? With custom armor and Bionic Claws, I'm doing 105 DPS and have armor of 458. Aggro is usually drawn by high DPS, a crit hit or with taunt. With Ops doing higher DPS (and generally having higher Hit% and a higher Crit) and Commandos having taunt skills, why am I going to be drawing enough attention to need ultra-high Dodge or higher armor? As far as helping with mobs or the Boss, I'm doing higher DPS this way and can contribute more than I can with a weapon. (For example, I did 3 runs thru all of Slouch-O to finally hit 30 this morning (Yay!). I used about 4 health stims and 1 energy stim--that last because I was paying more attention to my teammates health than my own and died. Oops!) I could see it if I were planning on soloing a lot, but I mainly run with others.

Now....if you could find a way to throw that Dodge and Armor towards my PL mage.....

I really feel like I'm missing something when this comes up and I'm hoping you or someone can explain it to me. *puzzles*

[Deathpunch]

A very interesting set of comparisons, DP. It'll be interesting to see how things change as new gear (and new enemies) come along.

The one thing I don't understand (and I'm hoping someone can explain it) is *why* I need the extra dodge and/or armor? With custom armor and Bionic Claws, I'm doing 105 DPS and have armor of 458. Aggro is usually drawn by high DPS, a crit hit or with taunt. With Ops doing higher DPS (and generally having higher Hit% and a higher Crit) and Commandos having taunt skills, why am I going to be drawing enough attention to need ultra-high Dodge or higher armor? As far as helping with mobs or the Boss, I'm doing higher DPS this way and can contribute more than I can with a weapon. (For example, I did 3 runs thru all of Slouch-O to finally hit 30 this morning (Yay!). I used about 4 health stims and 1 energy stim--that last because I was paying more attention to my teammates health than my own and died. Oops!) I could see it if I were planning on soloing a lot, but I mainly run with others.

Now....if you could find a way to throw that Dodge and Armor towards my PL mage.....

I really feel like I'm missing something when this comes up and I'm hoping you or someone can explain it to me. *puzzles*

If I'm not mistaken, healing draws aggro. Especially if you spam Empathy. It's quite possible that your aggro pull with maxed Empathy could outstrip com taunts if the taunt skills are at a lower level or your com is lacking in tanking abilities.

As an aside, I'll be testing later tonight with a full set of custom armor, and if I can, bone stock atomite. Results, if different, will be posted.

Sent from my HTC Evo 3D.

[CanonicalKoi]

There! See? I totally forgot about Empathy drawing aggro. I spam Empathy and hit Transference during fights and I'm still not pulling much damage, tho. Hmmmm....maybe part of it is group make-up? I'll have to play around with it too.

Thanks, DP!

[Deathpunch]

You're quite welcome!

[IBNobody]

Indeed it does, but the dodge bonus has no effect on weapon performance from what I can tell. If it does, then it is applied evenly to all tested weapons.

I took your post as "This is what you get if you swap out weapons with non-custom Epics equipped". That was helpful. The results you posted will be slightly different if you are wearing the platinum set because the platinum set does not have STR/INT/DEX bonuses. The biggest difference will be the health regen. Without the INT from the armor, you will not be able to push your INT high enough with a weapon/shield combo to hit that extra point.

[Deathpunch]

I took your post as "This is what you get if you swap out weapons with non-custom Epics equipped". That was helpful. The results you posted will be slightly different if you are wearing the platinum set because the platinum set does not have STR/INT/DEX bonuses. The biggest difference will be the health regen. Without the INT from the armor, you will not be able to push your INT high enough with a weapon/shield combo to hit that extra point.

Yes, I just realized that there are no str/int/dex bonuses with the plat gear. I hope to be able to snag a set of custom atomite and non-custom atomite and conduct the same comparisons. I suppose I may need to change the topic title from quick to not so quick.

Sent from my HTC Evo 3D.

[Deathpunch]

Ok, I've completed testing with the base Atomite gear. It bears out the same conclusions made with the plat gear, but there are some slight differences. I'll post it up when I get home tonight, and hopefully, I'll have a full set of tests with custom Atomite, too.

Sent from my HTC Evo 3D.

[bronislav84]

Thank you for this thread DP. Really.

For some reason Black out performs Incinerator on both heals and damage (From another person's thread), so what exactly is the reason to use Incinerator? The faster attack speed? It certainly isn't the Int, since the heals came out higher with Black than Incinerator even though they scale on Int. So damage seems to be a higher priority than just the pure Int, even for heals.

I can't think of a reason to use Incinerator, because even as an Int gun it seems to get out-performed on everything important to an Engineer. Heals, higher with Black. Skill damage, higher with Black. Overall auto attack damage, higher with Black. So unless people want to save some money, I can't think of a reason to use Incinerator.

Can you give a good reason?

[Deathpunch]

Thank you for this thread DP. Really.

For some reason Black out performs Incinerator on both heals and damage (From another person's thread), so what exactly is the reason to use Incinerator? The faster attack speed? It certainly isn't the Int, since the heals came out higher with Black than Incinerator even though they scale on Int. So damage seems to be a higher priority than just the pure Int, even for heals.

I can't think of a reason to use Incinerator, because even as an Int gun it seems to get out-performed on everything important to an Engineer. Heals, higher with Black. Skill damage, higher with Black. Overall auto attack damage, higher with Black. So unless people want to save some money, I can't think of a reason to use Incinerator.

Can you give a good reason?

Increased health, mana, and dps. If you are trying to Max as much mana as possible, to the exclusion of everything else, Incinerator would be the proper choice. That +7 mana may not seem like much, but it is half way to one more cast of Empathy. Incinerator would be more for true support engineers, not combat engineers.

Also, skill damage and heals will be higher with the BW vs. the Incinerator as your skill damage and heals are based off of your Max damage.



Sent from my HTC Evo 3D.

[Deathpunch]

OP updated with Atomite gear comparisons.

[roguedubb]

I still contest the notion that an Engineer should sacrifice DPS stats for survival stats. If that extra health & armor from a pistol+shield is really required then there are other ways to deal with incoming damage, like having a Commando that can tank, moving if you are in melee range, line-of-sighting ranged attackers. With 3 or 4 regen a higher mana pool is redundant, except for an extremely long encounter (which does not exist currently) and even then doing more DPS would reduce the encounter length and lessen the need for a larger mana pool.

An Engineer geared for survival in a functional group is wasting stats, because they should not be relying on their survival stats to get them through combat.

An Engineer geared for DPS in a functional group will increase their support function because every time the group is in combat they will be doing more DPS, leading to a reduction of the time the group is exposed to damage.

An Engineer's support functions are minimal at best anyway, being effectively limited to Emp+Trans and maintaining the Rev buff. Outside of that I do not see in the current content that there is any call for CC - with the way mobs leash to their locations it is impossible to build up large AoE pack kills which can benefit from some CC while setting up, there is currently no situation where you have to engage multiple boss-level mobs such that you need to CC one or more while killing another. Nearly every situation in the game favours a blitzspam over a coordinated attack, barring encounters where you need to know the right gimmick.

I would be very interrested in an analysis of how much real-DPS (not the listed stat) comes from auto-attacks, how much comes from skill use and where exactly the tipping point is when switching from gloves to rifles to shield+pistol is, because at the moment I read a lot which fails to take this question into account.

I guess my gripe is that a statement that a reduction in health and mana for DPS makes you a less effective Engineer provides no information as to why. That's a quick opinion, not 'A quick study'.

[Deathpunch]

I guess my gripe is that a statement that a reduction in health and mana for DPS makes you a less effective Engineer provides no information as to why. That's a quick opinion, not 'A quick study'.

Because an engineers main duty is to spam skills, revive, empathy and trans in particular, to support their group. Not to cause damage with dps or Max damage. If you want that be an op or com. Mana is a major stat for a class that should be pumping out skills, so the less mana you have, the less skills you can toss out, thus a less effective engineer in my opinion. But those 3 are not the only 3 skills being used. You'll need mana to cover your decay, pain, and other skill usage while you wait for the cooldowns.

I said right at the start that the summeries were my opinion, so yes it is a quick opinion. You are more than welcome to use the info here to conduct your own tests, that's why I posted it.


Sent from my HTC Evo 3D.