Open letter to the devs

[wvhills]

Dear Devs,
I read the latest SL update and saw where the level of the drop you receive is now based on your level rather than the level of the highest level player in the party. I am asking you, please, do not bring this to Pocket Legends. In the update you specifically mentioned holiday maps. I'm glad you are listening to the concerns of the players (because higher levels coming in and ruining the drops in the halloween map was a problem) but I do not believe this is the way to address it. Many of us use scale farming as a source of income plus it is fun trying to get through a map with minimal level characters. If the drop goes to player level then scale farming will become extinct. Many of the players with twinks are still bitter due to the changes in dual spec (many items still haven't had their stat requirements changed) and turning off kill gains when xp is turned off.

I think players need goals to keep playing a game like this and many players once they are level capped go to twink scale farming. I myself made a new level 10 toon and spent over 100 plat on item equips, inventory slots, etc. (I've done the same with a level 20, 30, and 35). I personally know of several players (myself included) who were planing on getting a toon on every fifth level. If this change is made to PL then this source of revenue for STS will be lost (and twinks use elixirs also).

Overall, I thank you for listening to the voice of the players but I feel like simply making the halloween maps lockable would be a much better solution than a more drastic change such this.

Sincerely,
Robert

[ZHEOTARE]

Well said!!

[Gluttony]

Already tossed my opinion about this one into the ring, hope that the devs listen to reason but most changes have been carted PL side after a brief testing period. I think this issue was only voiced in PL due to the Halloween issue; this will indeed ruin another niche in the game that related to low level toons. STS doesn't seem to have love for our alternative forms of PL amusement. The Winter Festival shouldn't pose any issue since maps can be locked and high leveled unwanted characters can be kicked. All I can say foresee in the future is plenty of winter items up in cs in preparation for the collapse of the twink economy.

I've read some replies that are for this move since it can be used to lower the market, but you have to remember that this is just one aspect of the market and a way to make some actual gold. Removing the twink economy isn't necessarily going to cause the level cap gear to fluctuate, so this will in turn just remove a money making opportunity for some of the non-capped toons.

[wvhills]

I've read some replies that are for this move since it can be used to lower the market, but you have to remember that this is just one aspect of the market and a way to make some actual gold. Removing the twink economy isn't necessarily going to cause the level cap gear to fluctuate, so this will in turn just remove a money making opportunity for some of the non-capped toons.

I had a statement in the OP that addressed this but decided to take it out. I'll include it now:
"Some may feel this will benefit lower level players because they will have access to better equips at a lower level but it's my opinion that they can do what I did- take a main (or 3) to level cap and then use their gold to equip twinks and then scale farm for themselves".

I took it out because I thought it sounded harsh and I didn't mean it to be but I couldn't find any other way to word it. I know this is just a game and really doesn't mean anything but not everything in life has to be handed to you. There's nothing wrong with putting some work in to get the things you want whether it's in this game or in real life.

[RedRyder]

I agree with you, but they implemented SL's UI into PL, so we might get that same patch :/
Some will like it, others wont; damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[drewcapu]

Thanks for posting this. I was going to do the same as soon as I got to work this morning in hopes that it catches the devs' attention.

SL and PL are very different currently when it comes to scaled farming. PL simply has more desirable scaled items, especially at the lower levels.

The "problem" in the Halloween event isn't enough to warrant a change in the scaled drop dynamics. Even though maps weren't hostable, people were still able to "make groups" to drop items of the levels they were aiming for.

As has been said before, changing the drop mechanics only makes it easier for a low level toon to farm the item which lessens the value and scarcity of the item. It also promotes low levels essentially leeching the items in a group of higher levels rather than trying to make runs with only low levels.

[drewcapu]

Also, when it comes to holiday events where anybody of any level can be in an instance, if they are promoting L10s being in the same instance as a L60, they might as well make it so that the L10 takes on L10 damage instead of L60 damage.

Doesn't make sense, does it?

Once a L60 barges into a L10 run and the mobs become L60, all the L10s in the run become useless!

The problem I saw in Halloween wasn't that people couldn't make runs. The problem were the high levels barging into low level runs and not leaving when politely asked.

So, if this is implemented in PL for Winter Fest, we'll see the opposite happen.

We'll see low levels barging into high level instances and not do any work. They aren't going to attack. Why would they? They can't inflict damage. And if they do, they'll get attacked back and die in one hit. And it doesn't matter to them because they'll still get the low level drop they want!

[Ellyidol]

Due to my lack of experience in the lower level department, I don't know if this is the case, but is there a maximum level gap for players in the same map? Much like how it works in PvP, +/- 5 of the host.

If not, could see it working in PvE now. At least mitigates the blow towards lower level toons from being completely useless with a Lv 60 in a 25 campaign, to only slightly disadvantaged when a +5 Lv toon appears.

[drewcapu]

In PvE, the only restrictions in place are a minimum level. You have to be no more than 2 levels below the minimum level of the map. After that, anybody can be in the map. But since the maps only scale 5 levels for non-holiday maps (FH maxes at L10 even if a L60 is in it), it isn't that big of a deal except for the highly sought after minimum level pinks in each campaign.

Holiday maps scale to all levels, so gameplay there is totally affected by the levels of the players in the instance.

[Gluttony]

Due to my lack of experience in the lower level department, I don't know if this is the case, but is there a maximum level gap for players in the same map? Much like how it works in PvP, +/- 5 of the host.

There is a limit but it's more like +/-2 from the recommended level, for example Ancient Swaps level would be between 28 and 37, so a total of 9 level difference max for the drops but more than likely a difference of 5 for scaled items since they are at the bottom and top of the recommended levels. Take one of the more extreme examples using FH, a level 60 could do all the work while a level 1 could follow and get a level 1-2 drop from the bosses. These items aren't very rare or particularly useful but it's just an example of how this system can be exploited.

[drewcapu]

There is a limit but it's more like +/-2 from the recommended level, for example Ancient Swaps level would be between 28 and 37, so a total of 9 level difference max for the drops but more than likely a difference of 5 for scaled items since they are at the bottom and top of the recommended levels.

You can level in Swamps above L35, but the items and map will only scale to 35. Just like you can have a full group of L28s, but the maps and drops will only scale down to L30.

Take one of the more extreme examples using FH, a level 60 could do all the work while a level 1 could follow and get a level 1-2 drop from the bosses. These items aren't very rare or particularly useful but it's just an example of how this system can be exploited.

Them thar are words to get people's attention. hehe

[drewcapu]

Don't waste your time with the L1.

Just join any DF1 run with a L10 and hope for a pink armor.
Do the same with a L30 in swamps.

Honestly, the one that I have somewhat mixed feeling for is SSC. It's a campaign that people have to pay for and it is *DEAD*. There are L25s who bought it not knowing what it's about and they end up getting booted when they try to join a L21 farming group. There's no need to try to struggle with it on a L25 when you get the same drops doing it on a L50-60+.

The main problem with this *fix* is that it is really most useful for holiday maps where the scaling range is *huge*. At the same time, it's most useless in the holiday maps because, due to the scaling, the lower level players just end up leeching. On all other PvE maps, it basically does nothing but cause other problems.

[drewcapu]

Well, the one good thing that would come out of it is it'll be easier to find runs for my twinks because i can join any run I find in the join screen.

Leeching and economy be darned.

Perhaps this is STS's intention?

There are no gold sinks anymore. So instead, just make it so that prices for scaled items will be lower?

It might be true for lower leveled items. But the only thing I see will be that level cap items will grow exponentially in value every increase in cap instead. By the time we get to L70, level cap custom gear will fetch 9M per item.

What will happen then is there will be fewer and fewer people getting up to Sewers before quitting the game. Only the truly hardcore will bother with trying Nuri. Only the people who either have been here a long time or have the means of getting a ton of plat will go for level cap.

And it all started with taking away stash from L1s and taking out kills for frozen xp...

[Aikiebo]

Dear Devs,
I read the latest SL update and saw where the level of the drop you receive is now based on your level rather than the level of the highest level player in the party. I am asking you, please, do not bring this to Pocket Legends. In the update you specifically mentioned holiday maps. I'm glad you are listening to the concerns of the players (because higher levels coming in and ruining the drops in the halloween map was a problem) but I do not believe this is the way to address it. Many of us use scale farming as a source of income plus it is fun trying to get through a map with minimal level characters. If the drop goes to player level then scale farming will become extinct. Many of the players with twinks are still bitter due to the changes in dual spec (many items still haven't had their stat requirements changed) and turning off kill gains when xp is turned off.

I think players need goals to keep playing a game like this and many players once they are level capped go to twink scale farming. I myself made a new level 10 toon and spent over 100 plat on item equips, inventory slots, etc. (I've done the same with a level 20, 30, and 35). I personally know of several players (myself included) who were planing on getting a toon on every fifth level. If this change is made to PL then this source of revenue for STS will be lost (and twinks use elixirs also).

Overall, I thank you for listening to the voice of the players but I feel like simply making the halloween maps lockable would be a much better solution than a more drastic change such this.

Sincerely,
Robert

I'm trying to understand exactly what this possible change might be. I read the SL patch notes and this letter to the devs. This change, if understand it correctly, seems PERFECT for the players who want to control the level of their drops.

I don't see how this change would end low level farming any faster than being able to host/lock games. Don't get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with you or doubting you in any way. I am just trying to understand what your point of view is.

For example: If I'm on a lev 20 toon and I am all excited about getting as many level 20 holiday pinks as possible, I'm going to be able to get plenty level 20 drops if the holiday games are hostable/lockable, right? I'll be in complete control of the level of my drops.

But, if this change that you are worried about in this letter to the devs go through, won't I be able to do the exact same thing? All I have to do, is log on to one of my 20s, then zone into games, then as soon as the boss drops, I get a level 20 drop. Is that right, or am I completly misunderstanding something in the upcoming change that you are speaking against?

So either way, ain't I in complete control of the level of my drops?

Either way, I am going to get level 20 drops, right? I will be able to get as many level 20 drops that I want (or whatever level drop). The only thing that will limit the number of level 20 drops I get is the amount of time I can play while the holiday maps are live.

If I play a whole lot, I'll get a whole lot of level 20 drops. If I don't have a lot of time to play, then I won't get as many.

Either way, I am the one in control of how many drops I get and what the level of those drops will be.

And of course, if I use elixirs I will be able to get WAY more drops. But, I don't think that is really the issue here.

So this change seems perfect for the people who want to be in control of their drop level. But, you don't think that at all, lol. And I don't understand (again not disagreeing or doubting). It seems to me that this change that might happen should make you estatic.

I don't see how "scale farming is going to become extinct" as you say in your letter. Again, I am NOT disagreeing with you at all. I just don't understand the thinking on this subject. You may be right, I just can't see how the change you are objecting too will hurt or end low-level scaled farming.

It just seems like exactly what the low-level farming alts have been asking for. I don't see the difference between this and hosting/locking games.

What I do think, is that either alternative is going to really, really hurt the value of low-level holiday pinks.

First off, as many others have said, once the low-level alts got smart, it was easy to have basically an unlimited number of level 20 groups. And if, either change is made (hosting/locking or the one the op is talking about), then tons and tons of people are going to make level 20 groups and there will be a gigantic supply of level 20 drops. This will be bring the value of these items way, way down.

I do not understand why the people who want to profit big-time off these events wants ANYONE to be able to control their drop level. I was told by several that the mid and high levels that played these holdiay maps are helping NOT hurting the low-level farmers. It is because of the high levels that the items have huge value. It is the high levels that are making the low-level items rare. If everyone can control drop level then level 20 items are really, really not going to be rare and valuable at all, lol. It is thanks to the mid and high level players that the items are super valuable.

I'm sorry you spent so much plat on your 20 twink. You didn't have to do that. At least not for this last Halloween event. Level 20 boss went down in 10 - 30 seconds. It was really easy. All the level of bosses were really easy. The only reason that sometimes the high-level boss seemed hard is that a lot of times the high-level player was playing with low-level players so there wasn't a full or near-full group of high levels to take the boss on.

If this change goes into effect, can't you still make alts at every 5th level. That's basically what I have done. I thought many, many players did that already.

And yeah, like you, I thank the devs for listening to the players.

I hope the holidays work out the way you want them to.

[Skeletonlord]

good speech!

[drewcapu]

For example: If I'm on a lev 20 toon and I am all excited about getting as many level 20 holiday pinks as possible, I'm going to be able to get plenty level 20 drops if the holiday games are hostable/lockable, right? I'll be in complete control of the level of my drops.

Yes.

But, if this change that you are worried about in this letter to the devs go through, won't I be able to do the exact same thing? All I have to do, is log on to one of my 20s, then zone into games, then as soon as the boss drops, I get a level 20 drop. Is that right, or am I completly misunderstanding something in the upcoming change that you are speaking against?

So either way, ain't I in complete control of the level of my drops?

The way it currently works for holiday maps is, if you start a run as a L20 and then a L60 joins the run before you encounter the boss, his level scales up to L60 and he hits you like a L60 would and will give a L60 drop to the whole group.

If PL follows suit with the recent SL change, the same as the above would apply, except you would get a L20 drop instead.

For holiday maps, this might sound like a good thing at first glance.

That is until a L60 starts a run and finds a bunch of L10s joining him staying as far away as possible so that they don't die in one hit.

This may not sound like a big deal, but do remember how things are in Sewers also. A lot of runs in Sewers aren't locked. Think about how hard it is for a L55 to do a run if he's joined by a bunch of L51s. This will not work for non-player-started games due to the lack of boot capabilities.

It may not seem like it at first, but this change will promote leeching.

[ZHEOTARE]

[QUOTE=Aikiebo:478624]

I don't see how "scale farming is going to become extinct" as you say in your letter. Again, I am NOT disagreeing with you at all. I just don't understand the thinking on this subject. You may be right, I just can't see how the change you are objecting too will hurt or end low-level scaled farming.
way, way down.

I don't think scale farming would become extinct. The problem is the value of the items would plummet. The reason for this is this... It makes it so much easier.

Example: I want to farm Dark Forest, stage one for lv10 gear. Right now, I can solo in, lets say, 4 minutes. With a group, maybe 2.5 minutes. The time it takes makes it undesirable for most people to want to do. However, with the possible new system, I can get a high level to clear the stage with me. Now we are clearing the stage in 1 minute. This makes the farm more desirable to more people.

Thus, more lv 10 drops are now in the market causing the prices to drop. A lv 10 armor that at the moment is worth 1.5m, will now be worth, say, 100k.

I agree that we have a good system in place. The issue with the halloween event is the inability to host/lock games. Then, high levels not leaving low level farming groups, and vice versa. My understanding is the winter event did not have that issue because you could host/lock your games

[drewcapu]

I don't think scale farming would become extinct. The problem is the value of the items would plummet. The reason for this is this... It makes it so much easier.

It won't become extinct, per se. But it will definitely be easier to do, in some cases, for those who know how to optimize their farming. As a result, as mentioned many times already, prices will plummet (to an extent). L10 Pink Armors will still be very difficult to farm, but you'll definitely see them in CS more often.

When it comes to DF1 farming, you'd also basically be able to just rush the boss since you don't have to worry about how many enemies are remaining.

You'll also see more high levels trying to lowball low levels for their drops. Probably not a good thing.

[Fyrce]

If this change is ported to PL, it'll definitely change our world.

It's easiest to see this affecting lower levels in an area: such as players in FH dropping items they can use, which probably is a good thing. Players would drop items at or close to their level even as they join higher level players or higher level players join them. On the face, this sounds like a positive. Players would join the highest level group they could find in the campaign they're interested in running, leveling and dropping useable items at the same time. This is generally how most games work.

The flip side, though, isn't just the possible leeching, though I can see plenty of "fun-with-high-level-players" possibilities, particularly in open maps or holiday maps that are generally not hosted.

How many players are like me: We might do a bit of scale farming, but we also use our current gear, join higher level players, and try to drop the end gear items we'll use when we finally level a bit. So for example, after the 1st few days or week, most gear dropped from BS runs are L55 gear, which means that a player can start L55 farming pretty much when someone meets the minimum level to enter a campaign. With the SL-style drops though, that no longer will be true. An L48, L49, L50, L51 and possibly an L52 will drop L51 gear, which currently sounds great, until you realize what that means to drop the L55 BS sets -- you have to be least L55. Maybe L54. A player from L48-L53 will always drop the scaled pinks.

In that sense, the end-level items will likely go up in price, particularly sets. That will likely be where the farmers will go -- from lower level scaled farming to higher level end-campaign farming. Instead of taking 3-5 levels to farm your end-campaign pinks or sets, you will now have to be at that higher level or even level beyond the top level of the campaign.

This might actually mean that those "higher" level equips won't be that useful to the ones farming, since they'll likely have leveled beyond the level of the drop before they get those items.

When I read about this implementation for SL, I thought about how the SL stuff has been ported to PL and then about how things I find interesting to do keep getting programmed out

But then I thought about what this means, because I not only scale farm, but I also run with higher level players in order to start dropping the higher level equips and sets. If this change is ported though, I'll always just be dropping the scaled items, not the end-campaign stuff until I get high enough in levels, which means a much shorter window where I receive both xp and a possibility of end-campaign drops. So for example, in Nuri's, after the 1st few days, most of the runs include a level 60, which means a chance at an L60 Glyph even though I'm L56. However, if the SL style drops are implemented, does this mean that my L56 could only get L56 pinks, which aren't bad, but will mean that I have to be L59 or L60 to drop L60 items or I'll have to troll the CS.

I think this means higher prices on the end-game items and sets, which BTW, are already high-priced.

Anyways, just another thought!

[drewcapu]

AGREED!

The pricing ramifications will present themselves in an entirely different monster at the level cap campaigns.

Without gold sinks, whatever is the currently highest level gear will demand the highest prices.

When L61 Pinks first start dropping, those will be roughly 3M until L63 starts dropping and L65 starts dropping.

Essentially, there won't be a point in "farming" low level gear in the higher campaigns. Reverse pricing!

If you ask me, the one thing that can stop the gold madness will be to have non-combo elixirs with scaled gold pricing. ie... keep the current 2k gold xp elixirs for up through L50 players and have higher priced gold elixirs for Levels above 50. The scaling can probably change based on what set of 5 levels are the top levels. New gold elixir pricing would be a good thing even without changes to PL's scaled drops.