Open letter to the devs

[Aikiebo]

[/QUOTE]
except you would get a L20 drop instead.

For holiday maps, this might sound like a good thing at first glance.

That is until a L60 starts a run and finds a bunch of L10s joining him staying as far away as possible so that they don't die in one hit.

This may not sound like a big deal, but do remember how things are in Sewers also. A lot of runs in Sewers aren't locked. Think about how hard it is for a L55 to do a run if he's joined by a bunch of L51s. This will not work for non-player-started games due to the lack of boot capabilities.

It may not seem like it at first, but this change will promote leeching.[/QUOTE]

Ahhh.... one thing is, I didn't realize this change was for all maps of PL all year long. Both the op and the post over at SL mentioned holiday maps, so I thought it was just that.

So now I can see bit more of the concern and of the issues involved. I was wondering what the stir was all about, cuz this is basically what the low-level alt holiday farmers wanted -- a way to control drop level.

Even tho, like I was saying, this is going to make holiday drops almost worthless. EVERYONE is going to farm level 10 or 20, w/e they think is going to be valuable. Players begged for a way to control drop level. And now that it looks like they might get what they wished for, it's just gonna render holiday pinks almost worthless.

Be careful of what you wish for.

As far as a level 60 having to run the Halloween maps basically solo cuz low levels over in cornor leaching. There were many, many times, really just a huge percentage of mixed groups where the low-levels helped out. The times when there was actual leaching by low-levels is when they were mad at the high-levels for being there. It didn't happen that often. When it did, I didn't care, cuz, well, the map was set up for all levels.

And, like I said before, the boss wasn't that hard. There were numerous times I had to solo the 60 boss while on my 53 dex mage. It was ez. Yeah, took bit longer than if I was in a group of course, but it wasn't hard at all.

There are only a very few instances in this game when the above is going to be an issue. Cuz most everything is hostable/lockable.

Your example of high-levels and low-levels mixing it up in the sewers, well, so often, players get real good at doing the same thing over and over, with the same people, with the same gear. They get real good at that, in fact. But, it is important to be able to be flexible and to be capable of handling the unexpected and something other than what you've already done 2000 times, lol. But, this is a whole nuther thread, lol.

But for me, as far as holiday maps go, I am totally ok with w/e sts decides to do, cuz i am sure they are doing what is best for the game and I'm gonna have fun wether hostable/lockable or w/e they decide to do. I don't care one way or the other. But, hmm... yeah, for overall game this is a larger issue.

Edit: btw, I have no idea how this post is formatting on the pc, but on this device, the quote at top is all underlined. I have no idea how that happened. I did nothing on purpose for that to happen. I'm very sorry.

[drewcapu]

Halloween is easy compared to Winter Fest.

I don't care what level you are. If a snowman all of a sudden becomes 25 levels higher than you are, you are going to die!

Toy Man takes a long time to solo at your own level. If he becomes 25 levels higher than you are, you are going to die!

[ZHEOTARE]

I don't think scale farming would become extinct. The problem is the value of the items would plummet. The reason for this is this... It makes it so much easier.

It won't become extinct, per se. But it will definitely be easier to do, in some cases, for those who know how to optimize their farming. As a result, as mentioned many times already, prices will plummet (to an extent). L10 Pink Armors will still be very difficult to farm, but you'll definitely see them in CS more often.

When it comes to DF1 farming, you'd also basically be able to just rush the boss since you don't have to worry about how many enemies are remaining.

So you're saying the same thing I said to clarify my comments??

Lol!!

[Gluttony]

I was in Balefort Castle talking about the change with some of the farming groups and it seems that they're actually for the change:



I must say it's getting quite discouraging to see that most of the updates are breaking the game more than fixing it. There are numerous bugs from the emote that appears in the status screen when attacking, to the overlap of vanity items vs regular gear... I see plenty for the staff at STS to work on but they continue to overlook these issues and remove something that players have learned to integrate into the dynamic of the game. Changes like this continue to reinforce my choice to not spend money on this game due to the fact that PL/SL is always one update away from becoming a game that I no longer enjoy.

[Aikiebo]

I was in Balefort Castle talking about the change with some of the farming groups and it seems that they're actually for the change:



I must say it's getting quite discouraging to see that most of the updates are breaking the game more than fixing it. There are numerous bugs from the emote that appears in the status screen when attacking, to the overlap of vanity items vs regular gear... I see plenty for the staff at STS to work on but they continue to overlook these issues and remove something that players have learned to integrate into the dynamic of the game. Changes like this continue to reinforce my choice to not spend money on this game due to the fact that PL/SL is always one update away from becoming a game that I no longer enjoy.

If these changes get implemented, I don't think that they will be breaking the game at all. This game is getting better and better. It seems to me, that the purpose of this change, is so that more and more players can loot (and otherwise obtain) the better gear. This is a good thing!! If more than a tiny few have hope of obtaining the best stuff (at all levels) this will ATTRACT and HOLD players. The only peole that MAY lose out is the people who spend a huge amount of time to farm and hold back on items to manipulate the market so that they can profit huge. Which in principal I have no problem with. But if good business sence and an overwhelming concern for the game/community at large takes a back seat to private greed then that hurts the game.

The farmers and merchants who are can roll with the punches, be agile and flexible will be the most resilient and will be able to survive as farmers/merchants. Some of their approach to what they do may have to change, but that's ok, if it helps the game.

[Gluttony]

If these changes get implemented, I don't think that they will be breaking the game at all. This game is getting better and better. It seems to me, that the purpose of this change, is so that more and more players can loot (and otherwise obtain) the better gear. This is a good thing!! If more than a tiny few have hope of obtaining the best stuff (at all levels) this will ATTRACT and HOLD players. The only peole that MAY lose out is the people who spend a huge amount of time to farm and hold back on items to manipulate the market so that they can profit huge. Which in principal I have no problem with. But if good business sence and an overwhelming concern for the game/community at large takes a back seat to private greed then that hurts the game.

The farmers and merchants who are can roll with the punches, be agile and flexible will be the most resilient and will be able to survive as farmers/merchants. Some of their approach to what they do may have to change, but that's ok, if it helps the game.

Well I am more for players actually playing the proper campaign with others of the same level and gaining gear that they can use, over players rolling with a pack of over powered bodyguards so they can leech "the best stuff" the game has to offer. This change doesn't really promote a team dynamic but will attract a breed of player that doesn't have to learn the game. I don't merch, so the loss of revenue isn't really my point. I am focusing on what it removes from the game, which has basically been there since the beginning and is now being removed to fix what exactly?

I see that you think this is about greed and perhaps that is one aspect of it, but it has quite a lot to do with the fact that those same farmers/merchants carved this area out for themselves and it's now being take away. I recall a thread about Evolt, one of the game's biggest merchants, calling it quits due to the fact that it was no longer lucrative. If that is the case and the items that allow lower leveled players to gain large sums of gold gets removed, then those same players that "manipulate the market" have even more power than before.

[Aikiebo]

[QUOTE=Gluttony:480464]

Well I am more for players actually playing the proper campaign with others of the same level and gaining gear that they can use, over players rolling with a pack of over powered bodyguards so they can leech "the best stuff" the game has to offer. This change doesn't really promote a team dynamic but will attract a breed of player that doesn't have to learn the game. I don't merch, so the loss of revenue isn't really my point. I am focusing on what it removes from the game, which has basically been there since the beginning and is now being removed to fix what exactly?

I see that you think this is about greed and perhaps that is one aspect of it, but it has quite a lot to do with the fact that those same farmers/merchants carved this area out for themselves and it's now being take away. I recall a thread about Evolt, one of the game's biggest merchants, calling it quits due to the fact that it was no longer lucrative. If that is the case and the items that allow lower leveled players to gain large sums of gold gets removed, then those same players that "manipulate the market" have even more power than before.

Gluttony, I'm sorry, you misunderstood what I was saying.

I am all for farming and merchanting. And I firmly believe that if you are a farmer and/or merchant and you are really, really good at what you do, you should be rewarded.

There is nothing wrong with being a rich farmer/merchant.

But if in a quest to get / stay rich, the market is being manipulated in such a way that it hurts the game, then that is a bad thing.

If this change happens, I believe that there are still gonna be rich famers and merchants. It just looks like they are gonna have to change their methods a bit. But, they will be able to survive if they are good at thinking things through, if they are agile/flexible and can roll with the punches. If they are resilient, they will survive.

One possible change, instead of having farming alts at every fifth level, a farmer/merchant may want to have a few more at the various in-between levels (i.e. not just alts at 10 and 15, but also, like at 11, and/or 12 and/or 13 and/or 14: just an example). This is going to sell a ton of elixrs, lol.

It just seems to me, that the point of this change, at least in part, is to allow more and more players to get their hands on the better gear (at all levels). This will attract players and hold players a lot longer.

It's kind of amusing to me when I see people acuse other's of wanting to get the best gear for themselves and call them leechers, but if the merchants want to hord the best then manipulate the market that seems morally ok, lol.

I think that what some are alarmed at is the idea, as you said that this will promote leaching. I have said many times in the past, that I can't stand leaching. There was always one extremely MINOR exception in my mind, but it is not important to the game play cuz it is irelevant cuz so small and not even possible in this game. Then another exception to my hatred of leaching just occured to me as I played the Halloween maps. Some leaching did happen. Sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for stupid, tarded reasons. But, in either case, as others have said I didn't really see it as such a big deal. Those runs were so short lived, not much of issue.

But, what I think people are talking about with this change is way huge. But in 99% of the game leeching it NOT going to happen unless the high level involved is ok with it. Cause of ability to lock games. If a high level is in forest haven farming rares and is all uptight about low-level players being in there also, all he has to do is lock his games.

So unless, STS nerfs the ability of high-levels in low-level dungeons, I think farmers/merchants will be able to figure out a way to deal with and accept these changes. And if, the players of high/low levels are working in cooperation then it's not leeching so much as it is a business arrangement.

Maybe STS will nerf the ability of higher levels in low-level dungeons. For the players who live in mortal fear of power leveling, lol, that should make you happy.

But remember, be careful of what you wish for. The Halloween farmers begged for a way to control drop-level. If this change happens, they have what they begged for but seem unhappy about it.

But no matter what happens, if more players vs. less players are attracted to and stay with the game longer, that is a very, very good thing. We all have to put our individual interests below what is best for the game overall.

Farmers and merchants can be as rich as they are good enough to be, but hopefully they can maintain a sense of community in addition to the desire to obtain as much gold as possible.

[drewcapu]

i can live with it either way. but that doesn't mean i'm gonna like it. for me the biggest 'good thing' is that you'll always be dropping gear you can use.

however, as far as i'm concerned, it'll mean the death of pve twinks.

you may ask, is it still leeching if a low level group is being helped by a high level friend/guildie?

it may not seems so, but it is since the low levels don't have to do any work.

this will be the optimal method for farming any of the good scaled pinks (and purp L15 xbows).

and that's just on the low end of the spectrum.

there won't be any need to farm scaled pinks for end game. the harder drops to get will *always* be the top level gear since not as many players will be there.

there will be more begging in the game. why? because there won't be a way for ppl to make decent money until they get closer to level cap. remember when laser wands were over 300k? remember when there were a ton of shadow cave gear in cs? you're gonna be broke if you're still working on BS right now.


if any if you think glut and i were essentially bumping this thread on friday, you might be right. but i do hope at least some if what we've discussed has made sense to some.


ultimately i was/am hoping for a dev to explain the reasoning behind the change. it can't just be the halloween thing because that is such an isolated example. this change would affect a huge part of the gameplay if/when it comes to PL.

[Fyrce]

I agree that the primary effect of this change will likely be that players generally will drop gear they can use or soon use, such as a level 30 dropping level 31 items, independent of the composition of the group, versus dropping level 35 items, which would take that player longer to be able to use.

I'm not sure I agree that players will more easily end up in the best equipment:

The best equipment in general, for each level, are pinks. These will generally still be rare to drop, which means a player would have to farm a bit at that level to acquire that equip. I think most players will end up with a mixture of equips, ranging from their level down, unless they use the CS. This might result in a greater amount of various level equips in general, but I am not sure it means each player will have that gear without actually pausing every few levels.

Farmers might take advantage of this by, yes, creating farming toons every other level or so, depending on the scaling of the drops. So for example, for swamps farming, farmers might have L31, L33 and L35 twinks. Farmer will farm the in-between equips for players who do not otherwise have the time.

Pinks though are not really the best equipment. The best equipment are the various SETS, which, unless STS changes this, are available only at the max level for that area. For example, the Balefort Sewers sets are not the L51 equips nor the L53 equips, but just the L55 equips. Previously, people spent the entire time they were leveling from L51 to L55 (4-5 levels) farming L55 equips. Most people did not scale farm. The change would make everyone scale farm, so that actually farming for L55 SETS can occur only when one is L55, or possibly L54.

This might not make a difference for some place like the Sewers, where many sets and pinks are available. However, imagine new pinks and SETS at level 15 in a new area for level 10-15. Players can enter the area at level 8 but those players would drop L11 items. Maybe level 10 items. The SETS are only for the level 15 equips. At level 15, the players can begin to make their sets. Almost all of them will level out of that area (no xp after level 18) before they drop enough pinks. Farmers will make up some of the demand, but without the help of the general population farming, farmers will not be able to meet the demand. The 'best' equips will end up being the 'best' priced.

Think of right now, the amount of time and number of people involved in farming the end-level equips for each area. Now quarter that time (at least) and probably quarter the number of people (or even fewer). Now think of the pricing...

Good? Bad? I'm undecided. I just think that'll be the new reality. Maybe that means people will stop a bit at the end levels before moving on to the next area? OTOH, the next area will have new stuff...

I seriously doubt a few dedicated farmers (the future) can match the dropping ability of everyone who plays in the area (the present situation).

[drewcapu]

I'm beginning to think about how Mt. Fang would be if they implemented the new drop mechanics.

Think about how rare it is to get glyphs in Nuri and all the materials you need to make a Demonic set.

Now imagine having to wait until you reach the top level for the campaign (non-elite) to start dropping the scalable items, as opposed to just being a L55-L59 in a run with a L60.

When Mt. Fang comes out and Nuri is no longer the cap, *nobody* L55-60 will be able to make a Demonic set without using CS. I can pretty much guarantee it.

And when it comes to trying to get top gear in Mt. Fang, well, that'll be another thing...

[MightyMicah]

WELL said man. I agree whole heartedly. However, the simple truth is, STS does not. If you look very carefully you will notice that STS is trying to get rid of twinking. Don't believe me?

1. They started adding cap level bonuses. This will encourage people to level up and not twink. The bonuses are massive. Irresistable.

2. They ended pve twinking for kills. This made all those who were twinking for that reason want to level up.

3. This next update. They are now removing the scale farmers. Scale farmers are now leveling up...or will be

What's next? Pvp twinking? I can't say for sure. But I can say this: I wouldn't be surprised. After all there are simple solutions to each and every problem presented, STS just doesn't seem to want twinks. I don't know why, but I've resolved to just trust the devs and go with it. Thanks you for reading this post, and best of luck to you.

~~~MightyMicah

[StompArtist]

Agreed entirely.

[Samhayne]

Thanks for the good thoughts on both sides of the fence.

[Snakespeare]

I'm mostly OK with it.

Mainly I think it would result in lower prices. My twinks are already pretty much useless. I made some just so they could be dual-class, and that got nerfed. I made others at the high end of each campaign to use the old pinks that would otherwise have been deleted, but it turned out I should have made them at the low end. And I made up stories in my head about them then they changed the stories. I leveled my mules finally, after months of pleading to allow level 1 to access stash but all the gear I had on my mules is now equally useless, since the twinks no longer have a reason to exist. I tried being deathless but that never caught on; being "an immortal" had no significance if it can't be recognized in a public way.

But it's the JOURNEY not the destination, I have to remind my self, that makes the game fun. So I guess that's where I was whacky thinking about twinks.

And PL has really entered into a grinding/leveling phase due to the logarithmic XP requirements (thanks Cinco et.al. for the two week reprieve).

So am I for or against drops scaling the new way they do in SL?

I'm OK with it. This darn game keeps changing. Whatever reason I had for making 14 characters seems ludicrous now. If I only had one character like most of the 133t, I would have complained through all the long level caps and built up huge stockpiles of gp from rushing in Boss Gauntlet, Plasma Pyramid, and Victory Lap. I would have gained items of persistence. And I would probably have a character in O&C like many of them.

I failed to see the changes in the wind. So, while this simply would make my style of play even more off-the-beaten-track, I really can't complain. The game I played was simply a different game. I can play the new game. It's an elixir game now, right? I should have started playing the new game months ago instead of struggling to try to make it stay the same in my head.

STS has learned a huge amount about game balance since they first started out. They really have a choice between making PL as consistent as SL is, or freezing PL. I think if they freeze PL... if they froze it before the day they incorporated the SL code... it would have stagnated and died. I feel their only profitable way forward is to make PL and SL consistent.

As a result, my level 51 oranges are all liquidation fodder. I used to be able to sell them for a modest fee. But what was that money for? To buy other items that I needed. Well, if those items are also cheaper, then it should even out.

But I think I will re-read all those very nicely discussed opinions above again because I'm not sure about my final opinion yet.