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Thread: Attack Stat PVP

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    Lightbulb Attack Stat PVP

    Hi,

    I've done some testing in pvp with the attack stat both on weapon/gems and the attack power points. I looked to see if adding or subtracting "attack" really made a difference in me slipping into "a bloody rage" where I would throw my attacks with more 'brutality and viciousness". I measured the amount of damage dealt by looking at the HP taken from my opponent. I used a variety of attacks (weapon strikes, leap, shadow dance, ghost strike, brimstone, fire) and found that having high levels of attack power points did very little to increase the damage that I deal out compared to a no attack power point situation. I also found that the weapon attack stat made a slight difference in damage dealt to an opponent when hundreds more were added. If hundreds less were used then you're weak as a noob kitten. Also, if you add more attack stat on your weapon or powerpoints it did not counter the protective effect that defense power points and wep/gem defense gave to an opponent (not even close to breaking even). The attack stat in both of it's forms is ineffective at dealing out "brutal and vicious" attacks. We've all experienced that when you allocate your resources to attack (or damage) you die way quickly before you even came close to killing an opponent, highlighting an imbalance between stats that protect you vs stats that help you over come an opponents protection.

    This also seems to hold true for the crit stat on the gems and weapons...with the exception that it works to take more damage in the fatal burst/brimstone combo and other combos which don't hit as frequently.


    STS look into this. This imbalance has been around for awhile but since there is so much armor in the game now you should look at making the attack stat more potent. Make it so that you can overcome an opponent's defense of the same magnitude at least 50% of the time. This imbalance is seen in the amount of damage there is in the game compared to the amount of armor as well. I see that you've boosted the damage stat multiple times to counter the effects of armor but an imbalance still remains even with massive amounts of damage (although getting closer to that point where damage can counter def/armor 50% of the time).

    Please look into this and adjust it! Make those stats more useful now that the pvp landscape has changed.



    -Thanks

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    If you forge attributes with more critical, would that make a percentage of the armor ignored?
    I would like to know what the best attribute to forge when I want to overcome armor.
    Last edited by Phosgore; 08-02-2018 at 10:39 PM. Reason: That's right

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phosgore View Post
    If you forge attributes with more critical, will this cause a percentage of the armor to be ignored?
    I would like to know too what the best attribute to forge when I want to overcome armor.
    Good question. With brim combo the crit stat from the forge took more damage from an opponent. everything (damage and crit) through brim and bleed combo seems to be more effective with crit. crit from forge helps deal slightly more damage with dark binding as well but that power is nearly useless in pvp. Even with bless 5 crit/+85 damage and added extra forge damage its difficult to counter an all armor build....unless a weapon combo hits (these seem to hit less frequently than brim however) or dark binding is unnerfed in some form.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astro1 View Post
    Good question. With brim combo the crit stat from the forge took more damage from an opponent. everything (damage and crit) through brim and bleed combo seems to be more effective with crit. crit from forge helps deal slightly more damage with dark binding as well but that power is nearly useless in pvp. Even with bless 5 crit/+85 damage and added extra forge damage its difficult to counter an all armor build....unless a weapon combo hits (these seem to hit less frequently than brim however) or dark binding is unnerfed in some form.
    Thank you for the explanation.
    Trying to summon Cinco to this topic, but something tells me that it will ask you for details of the used weapons and gems in yout testing. xD
    Last edited by Phosgore; 08-04-2018 at 08:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phosgore View Post
    If you forge attributes with more critical, would that make a percentage of the armor ignored?
    I would like to know what the best attribute to forge when I want to overcome armor.
    The Armor(defensive stat)will help to sustain enemy attacks and damage. The enemy's attack and damage combined effect leads to breaking the Armor.

    Initially, I experienced in PVP that if you got more Armor like around 60 points(overall), enemy's attack with damage is reduced around 50% of theit attack & damage. The only power fb(internal fatal)+brimstone(inevitable power combo) takes out armor and HP too around 2000 one shot. Other powers cannot break the Armor but crits from bless n aura which targets enemy's HP than Armor.

    Once the enemy armor damaged slightly, you can break down the enemy to death. However, players got Unholyblessing, Defensive stat(passive points), PROC gems to repair the HP. I felt most of the time HP, Defense and Armor linked internally.

    Same way- Attack, Damage, DPS are linked internally.
    (Crits are also part of DPS)

    The FB & brimstone combo dominating the PVP. That's truly one power to rule. STS should look on the power than Armor.

    I know there is good power "Curse" which can reduce the enemy armor. But it's still not powerful enough to dominate in PvP and Pve too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astro1 View Post
    Hi,

    I've done some testing in pvp with the attack stat both on weapon/gems and the attack power points. I looked to see if adding or subtracting "attack" really made a difference in me slipping into "a bloody rage" where I would throw my attacks with more 'brutality and viciousness". I measured the amount of damage dealt by looking at the HP taken from my opponent. I used a variety of attacks (weapon strikes, leap, shadow dance, ghost strike, brimstone, fire) and found that having high levels of attack power points did very little to increase the damage that I deal out compared to a no attack power point situation. I also found that the weapon attack stat made a slight difference in damage dealt to an opponent when hundreds more were added. If hundreds less were used then you're weak as a noob kitten. Also, if you add more attack stat on your weapon or powerpoints it did not counter the protective effect that defense power points and wep/gem defense gave to an opponent (not even close to breaking even). The attack stat in both of it's forms is ineffective at dealing out "brutal and vicious" attacks. We've all experienced that when you allocate your resources to attack (or damage) you die way quickly before you even came close to killing an opponent, highlighting an imbalance between stats that protect you vs stats that help you over come an opponents protection.

    This also seems to hold true for the crit stat on the gems and weapons...with the exception that it works to take more damage in the fatal burst/brimstone combo and other combos which don't hit as frequently.


    STS look into this. This imbalance has been around for awhile but since there is so much armor in the game now you should look at making the attack stat more potent. Make it so that you can overcome an opponent's defense of the same magnitude at least 50% of the time. This imbalance is seen in the amount of damage there is in the game compared to the amount of armor as well. I see that you've boosted the damage stat multiple times to counter the effects of armor but an imbalance still remains even with massive amounts of damage (although getting closer to that point where damage can counter def/armor 50% of the time).

    Please look into this and adjust it! Make those stats more useful now that the pvp landscape has changed.



    -Thanks
    I know stats with points are balanced but the powers and combos are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phosgore View Post
    If you forge attributes with more critical, would that make a percentage of the armor ignored?
    I would like to know what the best attribute to forge when I want to overcome armor.
    The only possible to overcome Armor is damage and attack. But you also need to sustain enemy attacks & damage. Keep it on mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Santosh Elangadi View Post
    The only possible to overcome Armor is damage and attack. But you also need to sustain enemy attacks & damage. Keep it on mind.
    Yes damage plus attack to overcome or match armor. I didn't find a match in the power points of attack and defense or while these two power point stats are coupled with high forge damage and high forge armor respectively. Like the opposite sides of a coin, two maxed out opposing stats should have a 50% chance to land a kill.

    I totally agree that all these work best through the brimstone combo and that this is the biggest asymmetry in the game. That plea has fallen on deaf ears however. Bringing back dark binding in a different form would help reduce armor along with curse. These two powers can be modified for more balanced game play.


    My hopes with this post is to make STS aware of this and to offer up a solution if they don't want to address the brim combo asymmetry. Maybe making attack more effective or having it add dps (and not damage that can work with brimstone) would allow people to kill before they get inevitably brimmed again by staying alive so long. That outcome should really be the 50% split. This was achievable before armor came out and the addition of more damage/crit has not rectified this.

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    Nope armor not work 100% and brim and rats do high damage and all weapons have high damage and if u make atk power more powerful it will be unfair for those who spend a lot on armor and tried 2/3/4/5 point on defense and atk.
    Atk is enough ,dps of all new relics and forge also have 30 damage so i think no need to make it more powerful.

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    have you tested? that's not what's actually happening in the pvp arenas. it is certainly working in pve and armor is always on unless you unequip it or get hit with curse, dark binding, or have very low health. we all spent money to forge for max armor and damage, me in particular to test the effectiveness of these stats in a controlled and vs pvp environment (with the different combinations of attk/def power points as well...as well as with brimstone and other powers). if you think attack is ultra effective then damage should be increased to counter the armor stat. Doing this however will make brim more overpowered than it is already.

    We already know attack/damage works great through the "combos" to break armor and brim is the combo that hits most reliably now (over sd/bleed and you can go through three or more brim attacks before a weapon combo will hit if both opponents have 50% dodge). So the best course of action to even out game play is to nerf brim somehow.

    Alternative solutions would be to bring back dark binding to counter over use of hybrid builds, make curse more effective, give a sd/bleed combo that is able to hit at the same rate as brim combo in a lag environment (ie too short of range), increase the hit rate of weapon combos (maybe even do this only for non hybrid brim builds), increase damage in the forge or with the regular powers (you cant use high level powers bec. the damage they inflict is FAR lower than the massive health they take from the user) so that people who don't hybrid can kill before the inevitable second or third brim, or make attack more effective.


    I do agree that rats are more effective now but I can stand all day getting hit by rats while a bless 5 brim combo and fire still destroys.


    Add variety to the game. It's literally been YEARS of us brimming each other. It doesn't take a genius to figure out "secret" builds and there is a whole skill tree that can be used if made more effective. I've offered up many solutions and even implementing one or a few would greatly add variety and enjoyment to a 1 power staling pvp environment.


    I posted in the suggestions months ago to

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    oh hey look it's this post again. let's think about this to make the game more fun than throwing shade on each other's brim skills

    now that Cinco has taken all of our money for the last year DEMAND more quality content for pvp. I love the blood forge (mega win) but it serves to act as a band aide that merely covers up an imbalance in powers.

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    No brim n rats are more powerful now and king Regen , metal Regen and also armor not work as before.
    If you use 18 armor on weapon before forge and u hit brim then it do 20-30 damage max. Generally and now days it do more than 40 generally.
    Armor is same but brim n rats more powerful so you can say armor not working 100%


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    "brim n rats are more powerful now": i'd say rats rank 3 do more damage than before but they RARELY hit. And if you have brim+rats you're relying on brim to do the majority of your damage. Why have rats ranked 3 if they do far less damage than a brim combo that hits far more frequently and do more damage through bless, can stun, can hit multiple players, and even in it's non combo form do good damage (ie. that little burn effect that takes away nearly half or more HP and stuns at the same time). Totally unbalanced


    Metal Invader Regen? Uh it was never supposed to work as being a weapon that could keep you alive without dying ever. This is a weak justification for keeping brim around the way it is.


    Armor still seems to work great for me although the extra damage in game (now) has mitigated this effect but not enough to be considered a counter measure. If there was more damage then someone not using brim could potentially get a kill in if brim missed (only 50% of the time on average). Even if there was more damage put into the game this would still be most beneficial to brim combo users bec their brim and weapon combos would do more damage in combo form for a given amount of time (yes brim and hybrid users have TWO combos at their disposal AND fire with level 5 bless).


    This is not balanced by any means. The imbalance is also indicated by how many people use the brim combo...nearly EVERYONE. No dark binding users, no nukes, very few if any rat users. If I did see a nuke during the tournament they were at a severe disadvantage and certainly changed their build by the end of the first day to earn some points. I can't imagine who thinks this is fair except for the people who have been dependent on the over powered combo for the last few years.

    STS this needs to change. We've paid you too much money to let this slide any longer. Maybe this is why we have such weird/rude players in game now? It's been years of us brimming, missing, then having the next 4 people nearby you trying to steal the kill. To any veteran out there you know what i'm talking about (but I know a lot of you left because of this ). At the very least remove all the other powers from the game except for fatal burst, brim, bless, and fire. Least we'd have more power points to put on brim and erase the illusion that there are other usable powers in this game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astro1 View Post
    Hi,

    I've done some testing in pvp with the attack stat both on weapon/gems and the attack power points. I looked to see if adding or subtracting "attack" really made a difference in me slipping into "a bloody rage" where I would throw my attacks with more 'brutality and viciousness". I measured the amount of damage dealt by looking at the HP taken from my opponent. I used a variety of attacks (weapon strikes, leap, shadow dance, ghost strike, brimstone, fire) and found that having high levels of attack power points did very little to increase the damage that I deal out compared to a no attack power point situation. I also found that the weapon attack stat made a slight difference in damage dealt to an opponent when hundreds more were added. If hundreds less were used then you're weak as a noob kitten. Also, if you add more attack stat on your weapon or powerpoints it did not counter the protective effect that defense power points and wep/gem defense gave to an opponent (not even close to breaking even). The attack stat in both of it's forms is ineffective at dealing out "brutal and vicious" attacks. We've all experienced that when you allocate your resources to attack (or damage) you die way quickly before you even came close to killing an opponent, highlighting an imbalance between stats that protect you vs stats that help you over come an opponents protection.

    This also seems to hold true for the crit stat on the gems and weapons...with the exception that it works to take more damage in the fatal burst/brimstone combo and other combos which don't hit as frequently.


    STS look into this. This imbalance has been around for awhile but since there is so much armor in the game now you should look at making the attack stat more potent. Make it so that you can overcome an opponent's defense of the same magnitude at least 50% of the time. This imbalance is seen in the amount of damage there is in the game compared to the amount of armor as well. I see that you've boosted the damage stat multiple times to counter the effects of armor but an imbalance still remains even with massive amounts of damage (although getting closer to that point where damage can counter def/armor 50% of the time).

    Please look into this and adjust it! Make those stats more useful now that the pvp landscape has changed.



    -Thanks
    This Might Help You...
    your attack points support the crit%
    try using a combo with your complete points in attack and trying a weapon and a beast gem with good individual crit..
    you'll die laughing noting the difference... the more attack you have boosts the crit damage,
    for eg if you u hit someone with a combo with no points in attack the damage would be normal as you are doing now, but if u summon points to attack your combo will be brutal asf! becoz your are using crit with attack and the "More the Attack Is More The Crit Damage Available"
    and by my guess no need to nerf or upgrade any powers they are working fine you just need to try everything to get the mechanism of powers
    THANKS AND REGARDS

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    Thanks I've worked on mechanism of powers for brim and pretty much every power combination since the beginning of this game. It seems however that the powers you consider to be working just fine are the fb/brim combo. Of course this works. This is why everyone is using it because it is overpowered compared to all other powers on the skill tree.

    I'm glad you mentioned how attack and crit work with COMBO. That's the heart of the problem. EVERYTHING works with brim combo = imbalance in skill tree. People who don't use the ONE realistically working combo in game don't get the combo "burn over time effect" that allows attack to actual work like in your example (ie. summoning more damage with more crit).This strategy also works with fire but is not as effective. My suggestion was make the attack stat more potent so anyone else not using brim combo would have a chance to kill someone who brims before they get the inevitable second brim in that would kill them.


    Brim is the most simple non skill way to take HP from an opponent (now that dark binding is nerfed). This is why everyone respecd when it first came out i know I did). People gravitate towards brim because it's overpowered in comparison to other combinations of skills. It's great for beginner players because they feel like pros right away because they can get easy kills and it's a great way to ks at a distance and boost kdr. This is why it is the only power combo used in the game right now. When someone talks about brim not being over powered they think in the context of everyone else who is using brim. When you look at it like that of COURSE it's not over powered because everyone is using the same thing. Seems equal and like it works. This only solidifies the point that brim combo is overpowered in comparison to the rest of the skill tree and something should be done.


    People who have been playing this game long enough crave a real challenge, change, and something that can get their mind and adrenaline going. The game was like this in the past but has now soured and staled bec of a fairly simplistic combo. STS you have every incentive to make the skill tree equal. People will pay for countless respecs because they want to master ALL SKILLS and combos. The pvp community will enjoy it (even if they will never admit it) because they'll want to WIN and will do nothing to stop looking for that perfect combination of attacks that allows them to dominate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astro1 View Post
    Thanks I've worked on mechanism of powers for brim and pretty much every power combination since the beginning of this game. It seems however that the powers you consider to be working just fine are the fb/brim combo. Of course this works. This is why everyone is using it because it is overpowered compared to all other powers on the skill tree.

    I'm glad you mentioned how attack and crit work with COMBO. That's the heart of the problem. EVERYTHING works with brim combo = imbalance in skill tree. People who don't use the ONE realistically working combo in game don't get the combo "burn over time effect" that allows attack to actual work like in your example (ie. summoning more damage with more crit).This strategy also works with fire but is not as effective. My suggestion was make the attack stat more potent so anyone else not using brim combo would have a chance to kill someone who brims before they get the inevitable second brim in that would kill them.


    Brim is the most simple non skill way to take HP from an opponent (now that dark binding is nerfed). This is why everyone respecd when it first came out i know I did). People gravitate towards brim because it's overpowered in comparison to other combinations of skills. It's great for beginner players because they feel like pros right away because they can get easy kills and it's a great way to ks at a distance and boost kdr. This is why it is the only power combo used in the game right now. When someone talks about brim not being over powered they think in the context of everyone else who is using brim. When you look at it like that of COURSE it's not over powered because everyone is using the same thing. Seems equal and like it works. This only solidifies the point that brim combo is overpowered in comparison to the rest of the skill tree and something should be done.


    People who have been playing this game long enough crave a real challenge, change, and something that can get their mind and adrenaline going. The game was like this in the past but has now soured and staled bec of a fairly simplistic combo. STS you have every incentive to make the skill tree equal. People will pay for countless respecs because they want to master ALL SKILLS and combos. The pvp community will enjoy it (even if they will never admit it) because they'll want to WIN and will do nothing to stop looking for that perfect combination of attacks that allows them to dominate.
    Besides the fb/brim combo the shadow dance and slash could also be used if the combo hit which is by luck (Highest luck on khanda) the combo is op even than fb/brim combo like 2x times, it deals so much damage and if the points are with the attack than crit is lethal +_+
    Yep i vouch for attack improvement, lets see what others think..
    Thanks for the suggestion
    Regards

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    Agreed. The shadow dance/bleed combo does major damage like fb/brim. They also both work will with attack (multiple hits over time means more crit hits over time) and damage. SD/bleed might do more damage but both combos can be survived with full armor (i'm guessing this is why Cinco added the extra armor....to offset the extra damage from bless 5...which if left without the extra forge armor and damage in the game would have set a balance between the top and bottom arms of the skill tree. I've waited six years for this power and STS killed it with the forge. It was a fun three days while it lasted smh).

    What makes the sd/bleed combo nearly useless is that it hits far less frequently than fb/brim. This has increased SLIGHTLY since the last set of updates but so has the frequency of an fb/brim combo hitting (ie. you'd be dead so many times over before the sd/brim combo hits when faced with an opponent with the fb/brim combo). A second reason why the sd/brim combo falls short as a counter measure to fb/brim is that it's range is severely limited. Brim on it's own is very sensitive to lag but has a range of 12m. Sd may have a range of 12m but unholy force (uhf) has the tiny range of 3m. If you are lucky enough to shadow dance over to an opponent you still have to try and land charged uhf. This short range is shorter than a melee weapon strike and the slightest bit of lag will put you out of range. God forbid you try and use this in ctf or a real dm game. You'll never make it to an opponent before you get hit with brim or held back by their teammates fatal burst. Thus fb/brim dominates because it's less disturbed by "false range" due to lag and the frequency at which it normally hits making shadow dance an impractical counter measure for that arm of the skill tree. We've all tested sd/bleed and have been allured and enticed by the damage it does....but there is a reason why everyone respecs BACK to fb/brim.


    So I agree with your assessment of how attack works with both of these combos but it becomes clear that one kills at a higher frequency than the other rendering the sd/bleed combo a weak if nearly impractical countermeasure to fb/brim. I've mentioned before in other posts ways to decrease this asymmetry between the two conbos. In this post i'm more concerned with how attacks work with non-combo attacks. Brim and bleed combos hit like a million times while they are doing damage over time increasing the likelihood that many powerful crit hits will occur. If however you use shadow dance, ghost strike, fatal burst, curse, leap, uhf or any other non combo power set you only have 1-3 times that your attack has a chance to make it's presence felt. My suggestion is to make attack more useful for these powers to the point where you could kill someone who misses their brim combo before they kill you with the inevitable second or third brim. This has been possible in the past but is very unlikely to happen now given how the values for attack+damage and defense+armor (for the non combo powers)are set now.

    high attack+damage should counter high defense+armor but it doesn't really do that. You die very easily if you use high attack and damage (you inflict waaay less damage than you incur) when confronted with a high defense+armor opponent....forcing most if not all people to high defense + armor builds (check everyones stats while they play). This clearly illustrates the asymmetry between these two opposing forces. If you throw your high damage attacks viciously enough you should be able to kill an opponent of the opposite high defense + armor roughly 50% of the time and vice versa (even if the high attack/damage person dies very quickly). If you have the attack+damage and defense+armor stats diametrically opposed then this could allow for a non brim combo user to get a kill roughly 50% of the time (skill/ability level aside). This does not happen. Even if you consider it balanced....the probability to land a higher power crit attack with non combo powers is very low in comparison to the defense/armor that is CONSTANTLY active. With the fb/brim combo this is no problem...attack works great. But it's another reason why nearly all people use brim combo. Which brings us back to the real asymmetry in the game...the fb/brim combo. Making attack more potent for non combo users or non combo powers is just one potential way to make for balanced game play across the whole skill tree (to see other potential suggestions find my post buried in the suggestions section).

    Thanks to everyone who took time to read my lengthy posts

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